Ex-Mormon DuWayner Anderson wrote:

>>we should see images of the horse in ancient-American
art, along with other animals that ARE included in that art.

Mobot Charles Dowis wrote:

>How much art has survived prior to 200BCE?  No mention of horses is
made after that time. >

Randy wrote:

Attention ARMekites!!!  For those new to ARM, this remark of Charles'
exemplifies his deceitful tactics which old-timers here are all too familiar
with.  I'll explain:  Just a couple of weeks ago, Charles criticized
"anti-Mormons" for "not reading the BOM."  I responded to Charles that he
himself was not as well-educated on the BOM as he purports, and reminded him
of
a couple of years ago, when I had to correct him three times on his incorrect
assertion of the final date for the mention of horses in the BOM.  Below is
part of that post, from July of 1998:

Charles Dowis wrote:

>Look in the BOM and tell us when horses were last mentioned.  Around 200 BC
if
I remember correctly.

Randy replied:

Charles.

Charles, Charles, Charles.

It took me all of one minute in my BOM index to find that the Nephite hordes
still herded hordes of horses and their other fictional animals that didn't
exist in America, in AD 17 (3 Ne. 3:22), AD 19 (3 Ne. 4:4), and AD 26 (3 Ne.
6:1).

Don't you owe it to yourself to actually READ the book which you so fervently
defend?

The BOM doesn't say much else about ANY of their animals, flocks, etc., after
that point, because the rest of the book is taken up with the "visit of
Christ", the Book of Ether, and Moroni's exhortations borrowed from the
apostle
Paul and Alexander Campbell.

And please, answer this for me----  I am under the distinct impression that
you, Kerry, Red, Keith, and perhaps others have been trying to tell us that
horses still existed in the Americas when the Spaniards arrived----but that
the
Indians whom Cortes encountered just didn't know about them.
But in your statement above, you seem to be trying to pitch the idea that
since horses aren't mentioned after a certain date in the BOM, that maybe
something happened to cause their extinction at some point before Columbus.

Now, please tell us---which position do you want to go with?  Were horses in
America when Columbus arrived, or not?  If so, can you point to some
historical
or archaelogical evidence of horses in Amerca in between say, AD 26 and AD
1519?

If the domesticated horses which the Nephite hordes herded died out for some
reason after AD 26, can you point us to some historical or archaelogical
evidence of that occurrence?

Surely an event so relatively recent in the fossil record, and so devastating
to the Nephite horses, would be well documented in the archaelogical record;
surely such a catastrophe large enough to wipe out hordes of horses would also
affect other native American animals such as buffalo, deer, elk, caribou,
bear,
jaguar, monkeys, etc.   Any clues as to what could have happened?

>Who said that the BOM claims that the horses survived past 200BC??

The BOM.  And if you have some evidence that these horses mysteriously died
out, I'd like to see it.

End quote from July of 1998. 

Dear ARMekites:  This is the most frustrating aspect of dealing with Totally
Brainwashed Mormon apologists like Charles Dowis:  When he is thoroughly
refuted on a point (or an entire thread), he simply waits a few months or
years, and then dishonestly repeates the same fallacious material which he has
already been refuted on many times.  This habit of Charles' tells us one of
two
things:  either he is mentally deficient, or he is a pathological liar.
He thinks he can get by with repeating such falsehoods to newbies or neophytes
to Mormonism; but unfortunately, he cannot run his deceit (or more likely, his
mental insufficiency) past us old-timers who are wise to his ways.

For those new to ARM who aren't informed on the controversy---The 'Book of
Mormon' claims that its people had and used horses as late as 26 AD (3 Nephi
6:1.)  Of course, archaelogical and anthropological research shows us that the
Western horse went extinct thousands of years before the time of the alleged
"BOM people," and there is no scientific evidence of domesticated horse
existence or use in any period of Pre-Columbian Mesoamerican history.
Therefore, the reason that Charles deceitfully tries to push back the last
mention of horses in the BOM to "200 BC" is because he thinks that the longer
they have been extinct, in his mind, the less chance there should be to find
physical evidence of their existence.  It's Charles' twisted way of trying to
explain away lack of horse evidence.  But the fact that the BOM mentions
domesticated horse use as late as 26 AD, into the Christian era, means that
the
odds should be that much greater for finding evidence of them.

The main reason Charles even mentions a final date for horse use in the BOM is
because he needs to push a theory that the domesticated horse became extinct
sometime between "BOM times" and the Spanish invasion.  In his mind, such an
extinction would also help to explain away lack of evidence.  Unfortunately
for
Charles' argument, the final mention of BOM horses at 26 AD does NOT equate to
them going extinct at some later date.  Charles likes to parrot his "NFNE"
constantly, so I'll mock him by stating that "Just because the BOM doesn't
mention horses beyond 26 AD doesn't mean they didn't continue to exist."  In
fact, the last mentions of horses indicates that they were plentiful:

"The Nephites being in one body, and having so great a number, and having
reserved for themselves provisions, and HORSES and cattle, and flocks of every
kind, that they might subsist for the space of SEVEN YEARS....."  (3 Nephi
4:5,
allegedly about 19 AD.)

"the people of the Nephites did all return to their own lands in the twenty
and
sixth year, every man, with his family, his flocks and his herds, his HORSES
and his cattle....." (3 Nephi 6:1, allegedly about 26 AD.)

Both of these citations indicate that the "Nephites" not only had horses, but
had them in great numbers, and took great care of them.  After the war against
the "Gadianton robbers," the "Nephites" returned to their own land, with their
animals (including horses), and prospered.  This is the last mention of horses
in the BOM, and it gives no hint of their impending extinction.  So, when
Charles tries to assert that they somehow became extinct after that point, he
is reading things into the BOM that are not there.  He simply INVENTS the
scenario that horses became extinct, when in fact there is nothing in the BOM
to even hint at such an occurrence.   To repeat: if there had been some
catastrophic event that caused the extinction of every horse in the Western
Hemisphere, then

a) such a catastrophe should have also killed off a number of other indigenous
animals (such as elk, deer, or bison), and

b) the catastrophe had to be so mysterious and overwhelming as to disintegrate
and wash away the skeleton of every dead horse in the hemisphere.

Of course, the prospect of such a catastophe that could "cherrypick" horses
(and other exclusively-"BOM animals") and mark them for death, while leaving
intact hundreds of species of other indigenous MesoAmerican animals (not to
mention humans), is ridiculous. 

Also, Charles' silly arguments on the horse issue don't even begin to explain
the extinction of other exclusively-"BOM animals" such as cows, sheep, asses,
and pigs.  Archaelogy shows that none of those animals existed in
Pre-Columbian
America, but in fact were Old World animals imported by the Spaniards in the
1500's.  The horse issue is but one small part of Charles' overall BOM
problems---none of which are solved by his repeating false assertions about
them.

Randy J.