I had never heard of these clowns til I checked out Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast about the Siege of Munster.
http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php?page=hharchive. It's long but very interesting.

Here's what Wiki has: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Munster

I noticed alot of similarities between these medieval nutjobs and the LDS nutjobs.

Is mormonism really reformed Anabaptism?

Yeah the Anabaptists were interesting...and they still exist. Lots more to the anabaptists than that stuff. Not saying that I'd agree entirely with their theology. Just as I'd say there's more to the Morg than Mountain Meadow...except anabaptists have always been far more decentralized than Mormonism. And a lot more anabaptists died for their faith than did poor "persecuted" Mormons...drowned by the "Reformers" and burned at the stake by Catholics.

I find elements of the Morg in most early whack-job offshoot groups in the first several centuries A.D. Frankly, I see some of Catholicism in the Morg...and Methodism, and Freemasonry...and Anabaptism. And, I'm embarrassed to say that Baptists, via Alexander Campbell, via Sidney Rigdon, deeply influenced Joseph Smith (and the Jay-Dubs, too, for that matter). There's never anything really new. FWIW.

Rigdon and Campbell were Church of Christ, in the Restoration Movement. They claimed their movement was the fruition of the Restoration Movement: the "Restored Church." They even tried to hijack the "Church of Christ" moniker initially.

Agree that the Anabaptists are interesting. JS really did take a little bit of everything else to create Mormonism.

I recently finished reading a book on the history of Christianity, and I saw many similarities between the Anabaptists and Mormons (except for the real persecution part). There are also a lot of similarities between Mormonism and the various heresies that the early church dealt with in the first few centuries AD that resulted in the Coucils of Nicea and Constantinople (which TSCC loves to criticize). I took great comfort in the fact in that in the 500+ page book on the history of Christianity, Joseph Smith and Mormonism were not mentioned.

I guess it makes a lot more sense, if you're creating your own religion--especially if you're selling it as "Christian"--to borrow what you like from the various groups. Then add some popular theories of the day. Yeah, you gotta have some imagination and some original material. But in the end, creating your own religion must be hard work (especially when the Lard commands you to take on 33 brides)...so why reinvent the wheel completely?

Yeah, I've noticed, too, how books on the 2,000 year history of Christianity don't mention Mormonism. But 14 million (generously) verses 2 billion (nominally)...and not really as influential as early heresies and heretics like Marcion, gnosticism, Docetism, or Arianism. Usually Mo-ism rates a couple pages in a book on Christianity in America.

who were driven from Germany into Switzerland and migrated from there to Pennsylvania. Guess there must be a family gullibility gene--they jumped from one cult to another.

I-seem-to-be-lacking-it-ly yrs,

S

I can't imagine the crazy shit my ancestors must have believed in given the lies my parents swallow.

At least the gullibility gene has been exorcised on my side of the family.

Amish & Mennonites are 'anabaptists', which means we don't support infant baptism, which was the Catholic SOP prevailing when Mennos & Amish started.

btw, Mennos (I worship with them) say that the Amish were a schism. IDK if that is supported by historical documentation or not.

I am a member of the Church of the Brethren....an offshoot of Mennonites....haven't attended there in decades due to living where there are none. They too do not believe in infant baptism but do immersion at around age 12. They also can get out of military service due to their religion. It is more liberal(not saying much) than Mennonites so they had to form their own church. Mennonites are much more strict but drive cars and interact with other faiths. Interesting all that happened in PA with those faiths. And yes I have ancestors from Switzerland. These churches are still around and there is an interesting story about a Mennonite man who was kicked out of his church in So. Central PA and estranged from his family-had lots of kids too and for 20 or 30 yrs. he has tried to fight their actions against him. HE posts signs on the outside of their buildings but they do not believe in filing lawsuits so nothing happens.....Saw a sign posted just a month ago....they take them down after a day and soon thereafter he puts more up. The locals can not believe how dedicated he is to keep putting up these signs with Biblical verses all these yrs. I think he may be 75 now.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2013 01:28AM by honestone.

The abuses of the Anabaptists slowed waaaay down when Simon Menno emerged as a leader. He was a Catholic priest who became quite concerned that the Catholic Church at that time did not seem concerned about the spiritual needs of the poor and those who chose marriage. His analysis of the situations involved had a good ethical foundation. There is no surprise that the Mennonites are today the strongest sect of the Anabaptists. (And are comfortable with certain resemblances to Catholicism.)

Help. My precious 34 yr old married daughter in NY has gotten involved with anabaptist from Ohio via Internet . We are born again Pentecostal and she was raised that way. She used to be a beautiful girl. She had gone through some hard times with her husband (nypd cop) who was verbally abusive and she lost a baby in utero. This took a toll. Someone gave her a book by Martha Peace.....then she found some friends on Internet who were from Ohio who spoke to her counseling her and they were anabaptist.
Next thing I know....my daughter started wearing head covering , sack of potato skirts and shirts( to hide all body form) and my granddaughters also wear this. Her husband is allowed to continue to be in the 21st century and his word is law. These people have made numerous trips to ny from Ohio specifically to help her with the kids and to help my her husband in taking down trees in the yard all yard work and landscaping and putting up fences and babysitting ! All ...they say to do God's work. They stay at my daughter's home. This has gone on for two years until 3 months ago when a branch of this family cult rented the house next door to my daughter's and moved next door . They present themselves very helpful, humble, non argumentive and peaceful...like angels in light. They speak German and some have admitted to have been Amish who left that for this. .....nothing I can say will change my child's brainwashed mind... These people believe that if you are divorced for any reason you can never go to heaven for you must go back to your first husband . They believe that if someone attacks you or your children physically you should not defend yourself. I pray that the Lord in His infinite wisdom either pulls her out of this or clears my confusion if I am and have been wrong all this time .

Suffered in various ways thro contact with these seemingly quaint people. Met my vulnerable adult child as she had poor friendship skills . Befriended her coaxed her into their lifestyle etc noticed she was questioning aspects of child protection so told her goaway . Not obedient or humble enough after years of quiet secret brainwashing. She lost her wits self harmed as life without these people was unthinkable. They were seemingly cooperative to us when approached for background but found them sneaky and unhelpful. Just wanted rid of her now. Found mentally unstable unfit for breeding with and too educated to fully obey everything a man may wish.took six month s before able to live alone again or work . Was plaguing them to take her back rapt any cost . Eternal exclusion etc .. pleading everyone to behpg them to forgive her sin of disobedience, etc. Probably she still seeks to return . Offered a life when she could snuggly feel superior and above everyone in outside world. Read nothing but their drivel literature etc. When we were disgusted at their cruel disregard they suggested the fault lay in our family abuse of her. Years on she still sprouts their twisted doctrine . Family torn in tatters .

We have at least 10 Hutterite colonies (containing 80 to 120 members each) within a 20 mile radius of our farm. They are all about control, guilt and shame X 10 over Mormonism. That being said, many try to get away with whatever they think the preacher won't find out about.
In addition we have a large number of old order Mennonites in the area too. They don't live on colonies but practice Anabaptist principles. Many books have been written about leaving Hutterite culture, and of course TV shows such as "American Colony" & "Breaking Amish" have generated much discourse. American colony had some truth in it but there was a lot of staged stuff too. My wife worked as a special needs teaching assistant at a local colony school for 2 years so she got a rare inside look at the goings on.

Ron Burr



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2013 01:44PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

I find the parallels amazing, particularly the political ones. Have you read about the Munster rebellion? A charismatic Anabaptist took control of the city, assigned himself the role of king, instituted polygamy and the equivalent of the United Order, and engaged in a war with the city's neighbors. When he was killed, a second charismatic continued the movement and the war.

The story comes very, very close to what Joseph Smith did and also shows how insane religious leaders can generate their own persecution. In my parallel version of history, Brigham Young would be the second "king." What made him different from the second Anabaptist leader was that he took the Mormons out of the United States rather than staying and continuing what could have become a civil war. But from polygamy to forced taxation, Brigham fit the pattern.

The more rocks I kick over the more I find the Morg lacks any originality whatsoever. I wonder what exposure the early morg leaders had to anabaptists in their area; there had to be Amish nearby.

Combine them with the Cochranites and the Campbellites and you have Cult-a-Palooza.

The area of New York where Palmyra is was a hot-bed of religious revivals of all flavors during the Second Great Awakening when Joe was a young 'un...some pretty "out there." Plenty for him to draw from, for sure. BoM is full of phrases popularized by Second Great Awakening revivalist preachers.

stillburned is right. There were tons of heterodox Christian ideas on the frontier in JS's time as well as Jewish mysticism after JS brought rabbis out to teach Hebrew and Jewish culture to him and the other Mormons. Everything from restorationism to communism (not the political sort), polygamy, etc., was there along with the myths of Isrealite Indians, etc.

But I think we also have to add the psychological stuff. If JS was a narcissist, then he thrived on others' adoration and in his control over their lives. Given similar ideas and similar emotional needs, JS could have unconsciously imitated the Munster Anabaptist extremists in instituting polygamy and making himself king. He need not have ever heard of Munster or Anabaptists themselves. If BY was a narcissist or a sociopath, he would have followed the same pattern.

So my hypothesis is that both the early Mormons and the Munster anabaptists were steeped in mysticism, their peoples had deep emotional needs for strong leadership and a sense of God's favor, and individual men with disturbed personalities naturally rose to the top.

Jonestown, Heaven's Gate, David Koresh: all these stories have individual leaders claiming God's power, taking others' wealth, sleeping with lots of women, etc. What makes the Anabaptists and Mormons look more similar than these other cults was probably that Anabaptist beliefs were strong, if not necessarily recognized as Anabaptist beliefs, in Joseph Smith's region. There need not have been any conscious imitation.

I agree...the psychological component is critical. Given the same personality disorders and character flaws, results are the same, regardless of one megalomaniac having any historical knowledge of the other.

I give them credit for challenging infant baptism and promoting the separation of church and state.

But like Mormons, they championed the separation of church and state and then turned around and tried to create a state of their own, one in which the religious leadership was also the secular leadership. Joseph Smith did that unsuccessfully, Brigham succeeded, and in recent years the modern church has tried again to legislate its own moral code. The Munster Anabaptists just went a little too far and were destroyed for it, though Joseph Smith got close to that end in 1843 and 1844.

As a general rule of thumb, any cult that tries to create its own kingdom--priests and priestesses, kings and queens--does not really believe in the separation of church and state!

Ya, I know I'm reaching a bit.

Let me put it this way, of all the reformers, I like them the most. But, all of those movements have blood on their hands in one way or another.

I think you are right. Luther helped break down Catholic dominance but was in many ways a troubled and destructive man. Again and again, those reformers made some improvements and did collateral damage as well. Never a clear picture.

Simon Menno implemented his reforms AFTER Munster, and in the light of what happened at Munster. Menno introduced the emphasis on separation of church and state.

If someone as principled as Menno had taken over Mormonism after Nauvoo....... Oh-- that's right. Mormonism was a fraud from the foundation up. No principled person of above average intelligence would even try rescuing it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2013 08:16PM by me.

Yeah, I agree, Menno was a good guy, unlike...well, Joseph Smith and all of his successors.

DW's family on MIL's side are all Mennonites. They fled persecution in Holland for Germany, then Poland and finally Ukraine, before migrating to North America in the mid to late 1800's.

They no doubt suffered from centuries of inbreeding, as they preferred to marry within their faith, and lived in close communities of farmers, trying to survive.

They refused military service, which made it hard for them to hold onto land and citizenship, so they were kicked around a lot.

They are a good group of folks, and they are still practicing their religion in the US and Canada today. I wish DW would go over to them.

My grandparents were Anabaptist. For a while, the family joke was that my mother converted to Mormonism, because it was less strict.

We have a daughter (BYU grad, MO husband, 3 kids) who lives in an area with TONS of Mennonites of all stripes (there is a lot of diversity in/of Mennonite churches). After she decided the Mormon Church was full of it, she church shopped around in all of the normal places and then settled on a fabulous Mennonite congregation (she still feels a need to have a church for social reasons). This congregation is pretty progressive on a lot of levels (lots of social justice issues) and has the most fabulous music program I've ever seen (and acoustical sanctuary to match).

I visited her last week and the youth group, that really had their stuff really together, ran the Sunday service- not like a Mormon congregation would do but, really ran the service from beginning to end. They reported on their trip to the annual "convention" of Mennonite Youth in Phoenix a few weeks ago. Here's a link to a video clip of one of their praise bands - looks a little like a rock concert – and a lot more fun then any Mormon youth event.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWfadrq4JyE

Powerful Dan Carlin!