I have been thinking about you and your testimonial lately of being married to a faithful Mormon your whole life and finding common ground. Your posts have helped me more than you will ever know and so has everyone else's posts; however I have some questions concerning that path of least resistance. I am asking to gain perspective for myself about this choice you (or others) have made:
1). If you could have convinced your spouse the church was not as it claimed and that his hope should not be placed there, would you have found that beneficial?
2) At which point in your marriage did you give up the ghost of trying to influence him to change his beliefs and why?

For everyone else: How are you handling your TBM spouse, and if you are not married, how are you handling the belief of your TBM family members? Are you the "live and let live" type? Or is it important to you that they exit the fraudulent corporation? Do you view it as fraudulent? Or respect it as a faith of your loved one?

Thank you for your responses. I value any and all opinions as I consider them in helping me deal with aspects of this religion and the effects it has on my life daily.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2013 01:18PM by snuckafoodberry.

Definitely everyone is different and will have different perspectives about how to deal with a TBM spouse...Also, there are life circumstances that will impact your approach.

For example, if you have kids and you definitely do NOT want the kids to be raised mormon you may fight it more. We have 6 month old twin girls and I really do not want them to be raised Mormon.

In my case I had to make a deal with my DW. She agreed to read 'anti-mormon' literature if I agreed to move to Utah within 6 months to year. I don't know if the literature will get her out or not, but I know its got her thinking. Here's the reading list I gave her, if you're curious.

1. In Sacred Loneliness by Todd Compton
2. The Changing World of Mormonism by Jared and Sandra Tanner
3. The CES Letter
4. A print out that shows side by side comparisons of versed copied verbatim from the bible into the BOM

There was other things I gave her, but this is the key stuff. Also, we don't talk about religion anymore; if I want to express something I don't like about the mormon church or just religion in general I write her a letter about it and read it to her. Generally, she won't respond to anything I say.

That has been the hardest part for me. I think she's on her way out, but because she won't talk to me about it, I have no idea what she's thinking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2013 02:36PM by marriedtoexmo.

Either that or you are on your way out when you arrive in Utah.

Utah is a great state for women to get divorced in, from what I hear on this board. And I mean that in a horrible for the men kind of way.
Beware her long term plans...

If she is actually reading those sources I have HIGH expectations that she will eventually leave LDS Inc. It took me several YEARS AFTER reading the Tanners' stuff to finally openly admit to anyone that I didn't believe and to finally be ready to resign. It was a long, internal struggle, but I finally accepted the fact that it wasn't true and I could live without it in my life. Those critical of Mormonism weren't gonna get me to admit it at the time but deep down I knew I suspected it was bull.

My only concern is that your wife won't read enough that would convince her. TBM's too often feel their testimony slipping when reading anti stuff, get scared, and stop. Hopefully she isn't the same way.

I really can't give you my experience on the spouse front as I was the TBM spouse. My husband was never very religious even before he converted to Mormonism. He also didn't know about the evidence of TSCC's fraud until I told him. He was very receptive to learn the facts and we decided to leave together. My husband was willing to attend whatever church I wanted so long as I didn't push him to go every week. Even when I was TBM, I stopped expecting him to go to church and just started asking. He came more often when I started asking rather than demanding.

I really want my TBM family to leave too, but we are at a "live and let live" point right now. I know that they would not be receptive right now. We don't really talk religion at all. We are having our children baptized this Sunday and my mom has asked a bit about that as she has never been to a Catholic baptism before. Honestly, I haven't either but I was able to talk to her about the basics. I am fortunate that my parents have decided to attend. I don't bring anything up religion-wise but I am willing to talk when they bring it up.

I am hopeful for my sisters eventually seeing the truth about TSCC. I see my brother as a lost cause. He is married into a long time TBM family and lives in the SLC area. He also thinks he is better than the rest of us and now that I am an apostate, he is more justified in his thinking. We don't talk about religion at all. Otherwise, the relationship is business as usual.

My older younger sister is kind and loving and really what a person should be. She has a heart of gold. She is super supportive of what we are doing and has told off my parents when necessary. She and her family are also attending my children's baptisms, which is a huge treat. She has asked me about my new faith and is genuinely interested in learning more. My younger younger sister recently went through the temple and got married to a nice young man who is not a return missionary. I'm not happy they got married in the temple, but I see his not being a return missionary a huge plus. I am hopeful for them too.

It's just not the right time to push anything. I am the oldest child in the family so I am hopeful that my example will yield fruit some day. I am asking my family to be accepting of my choice and my new faith, so I am willing to do the same for them. My family has been far more supportive in my choice than I ever expected them to be, so I feel I need to give them the same courtesy.

I'm in the live and let live category.

DW is 5th generation, Palmyra, ancestors were pals with JS, handcarts, you get the picture. She has a lot invested and the whole thing still works for her.

I'm a convert that gave the church a chance for 34 years. It doesn't work for me.

If the church works for DW, or for anyone, good for that person. I'm happy for them.

If it were just me, I'd walk away today. But I go to church with DW because I don't want to subject her to the scrutiny that comes with an AWOL spouse.

Thank you for your question.
I tried several approaches, as I posted recently.
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,989726,990938#msg-990938

A little background.
I have a very different background from generational BIC members. I was a young adult convert from a long line of middle of the road Christian believers. I had considered going into the ministry coming out of high school as a Music Minister, as that was all a woman could do at that time. Reverends, ministers, pastors, etc. were only men.

Our little family joined the LDS Church without ever attending. Another story for another time!

I met my husband right off his mission, and married in the temple a little over a year after we met, moved to Utah so he could attend BYU and lived in Wymount Terrace in early 1963.

I jumped in with both feet with no idea what I was getting into. (Another story of how our family thought it was just another typical Christian Church, which was what we knew, plus our belief in Spiritualism explained a lot in our minds about Joseph Smith Jr.)

From there on, I immersed myself in Mormonism, learning all I could and adapting as well as possible as a convert. I often said I could never learn to think like a "born in the bed Mormon." He was my teacher in the beginning.

Some years later, I came to a cross road. That began in the 1990's as I recall. A lot of things bothered me.

I was not happy with my role as a woman in Mormonism. Many instances left me very frustrated and upset. (Some very bizarre ones that I posted about - one became the Last Straw.) My husband saw how upset and confused I was and how I could not figure out what was going on and why. He couldn't help much as he was listened to and not me.

I had grown up, so to speak, and was beginning to find my voice. I had children from 12 on that had no interest, and didn't want to be involved. I had some that stuck it out, served missions.

So, I made a conscious decision to leave their religious choice entirely up to them. I could not force it or force belief, or force a testimony. Not possible!(I did a few really dumb things in that process.)

The approaches I used, are outlined in my post above, and a much longer one (How I made it work with a believing spouse) Updated 2 13 2013. If I can't find a link, I'll post it again.

This was a very long process. I had been an active, totally involved Mormon, living the "regs" as well as I could. There was a nagging little bird on my shoulder that kept chirping: what is wrong with this picture, especially the treatment and attitudes by some of the (mostly males in leadership) members that were so abominable.What had I gotten myself into. most of the time, everything went very well. Then Whammy. Something upset the apple cart. Big Time!

Most of my early years in Mormonism are what I often referred to as The Golden Years. Mormonism had a lot of fun, enjoyable things that brought people together. I was a musician and easy speaker so I had a lot of experiences that built my self respect and self confidence. I enjoyed my life as a Mormon.

My husband was a generational Mormon with family going back to Nauvou. It was in his DNA! This was not going to be an easy transition for me. Nor for him to understand.

One of the first things I negotiated with my husband was to "take turns." I did it your way for 30 plus years, now you can do it my way, on a few things. One was: no tithing. There is a story about that too and we had to negotiate again. The idea of my agreements didn't always go well.

There were basic principles of relationships that I needed to learn to practice. Respect his rights to his religion. That included; respect his "G's" - wash/fold/put in drawer as always... and - and not resort to childish behavior - no stomping on them or losing them! :-) (I was sorely tempted at one point!) Buy him new ones and be civil about it. No attitude!

Shut up about what I learned about the LDS Church that didn't jive with his long time "spiritual witness" that I soon learned was immovable. Forget being a Right Fighter. Religion was not about facts and figures. It was about belief by faith. Leave his religious beliefs alone. No more yakking about stuff over breakfast!

Eventually, I realized I needed to set some priorities -- save the marriage. Respect his religion, after all, I knew it and lived it myself learning from some of the best!

Not everyone was going to agree anyhow. So it was down to the final frontier as they say. Agree to Disagree. I think it was his idea originally. I had to Let Go. My beliefs were about me, his were about him. We could coexist and be OK with that.

Then, when I had my husband's assurance that he didn't mind if I resigned my membership (took my name off the rolls) I wrote a short letter and got the job done. That was June of 2002.

All along, I needed to give my husband time to adjust to the notion that it was OK for me to change my mind. It helped that he knew some of my background.

In conclusion:
I soon realized that no matter what I shared with my husband about the history or Mormonism, or my opinions about it, he was not going to change his mind about his beliefs in Mormonism. They were solid. It was not within my power to do a thing about it. It was OK to share funny things. But if I wanted him to respect me and honor my choices, I needed to leave his alone and just let it be- and respect and honor his.

Our marriage weathered all of the storms probably out of sheer determination! We were an odd team - opposites in so many ways. Those that know me on Facebook have read my little essays about my grief process and about how we worked together.

It was not a smooth operation, I was left in a position (because of his job-travel-long hours) of being the Sergeant In Charge much of the time, and I ran a tight ship. Someone had to do it and it fell to me.

I never questioned his commitment and love for me. He was in for the long haul. I knew what he would appreciate and what he didn't. I learned early on that no one can be everything to another person.

We learned quite naturally to defer to each other for different things, situations, etc. I am an extrovert, he was an introvert. He didn't say much, but I knew his expressions and what they meant! That was enough! We never had deep discussions about things in general, and not about religion. Wasn't necessary.

Over the years when his health began to decline, it required many more adjustments. He was not able to attend church very often.

The upshot: I needed to learn to work within our relationship: our different personalities, different backgrounds, and be clear what kind of outcome we would both be happy with. It was a slow process. It was easier in some ways as most of our children also left the LDS Church. But he didn't! No way!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2013 02:46PM by SusieQ#1.

Thanks for that background, SQ#1. It helps to know how you reached detente with your beloved TBM husband.

It seems to me that putting the marriage ahead of the church is the key factor in having long term success where both partners feel truly ok with the situation.

Trading reading a couple of books for living in Utah among Mormons is a terrible deal because a mind will never open until it is READY. It is readied by experiences and facts which are put on a shelf until that shelf crashes.

If the OP had no children, then moving to Utah might be OK because the Mormon church in Utah is smug and repulsive in its inbred superiority and church interference in everything. One could stay Mormon easier in California where at least a pure-us-against-the-world attitude can produce a bond which includes everyone in the ward.

Your wife will have the pity of the Relief Society sisters and a bishop which may support her leaving you for no other reason that you will never be able to pull her through the curtain in the CK. The thinking there is more like, "Well, I will be given to another man in the afterlife anyway, so why not move that up and enjoy the blessings now. Why should I suffer in earth life and risk my children's salvation?"

If you live in the mission field, on the other hand, your children will be exposed to many different religions and your status as an unbeliever will not be as gossip-worthy.

Once you have presented the facts that lead you to change your mind about Mormonism, there is nothing to be gained by arguing. It is such a shock to learn that your spouse has lost their testimony because it means you will never be that eternal family which was your previous whole life purpose.

It is only kind and reasonable to take it very slowly and allow the real love that you and your wife have for each other bubble up so that your MARRIAGE and FAMILY can become the primary goal of your lives...as it should always have been.

Those who try to force the logical conclusion of leaving a corrupt and lying corporation often send their spouse straight into the arms of the church to comfort the emotional devastation.

YOU want to be the one comforting your spouse during their emotional reaction. You want to be the one saying that you are the same, your love for her is the same, and your values are the same, you aren't having an affair or hiding vodka in the toilet bowl tank. (hopefully you can laugh together about this)

You actually can form a better and stronger bond after the conversation if you make sure you are the comforter and don't talk about the evil character of Joseph Smith through a closed bathroom door as your wife weeps (I'm exaggerating there.....maybe)

Saving a marriage through a crisis of faith when the marriage was based and maybe even formed based on similar religion is a tough one, but the evidence is here on this board that it can be done.

Best of luck to you

Anagrammy

anagrammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for that background, SQ#1. It helps to
> know how you reached detente with your beloved TBM
> husband.
>
> It seems to me that putting the marriage ahead of
> the church is the key factor in having long term
> success where both partners feel truly ok with the
> situation.
>
>
It was a process with no manual! And, most importantly was setting priorities - putting the partnership (my favorite for a marriage) far and above any difference of opinions about .... well, most of anything.

And yes, there was a need to stick to the core, which was still there without the religion. It helped that I realize that rather quickly - didn't start off that way though. I had to learn not to rock that very stable boat. It would only take so much!

It was a matter of commitment to our long time investment in our partnership and family - in all ways.
Negativity was a deal breaker.I had to get with a thinking script that would contribute positively to our lives.

For me, it was important - could just be my personality, and we have a 3 year old daughter that I didn't want to have anything to do with TSCC. I came to hate the church so fervently because it is a fraud an I feel they are defrauding people.
So, not gonna lie, I used sexual favors to get my husband to look at, read, and discuss truthful material about the Church. I didn't force him to have a certain opinion - my only stipulation was that he genuinely read about, think about and discuss with me.

He did, and came to his own conclusions - that the church is not legit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2013 02:57PM by dogeatdog.

dogeatdog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For me, it was important - could just be my
> personality, and we have a 3 year old daughter
> that I didn't want to have anything to do with
> TSCC. I came to hate the church so fervently
> because it is a fraud an I feel they are
> defrauding people.
> So, not gonna lie, I used sexual favors to get my
> husband to look at, read, and discuss truthful
> material about the Church. I didn't force him to
> have a certain opinion - my only stipulation was
> that he genuinely read about, think about and
> discuss with me.
>
> He did, and came to his own conclusions - that the
> church is not legit.

Nice approach...I'm glad you got a happy ending out of it.

Curious, what material did you share with him?

>> So, not gonna lie, I used sexual favors to get my
>> husband to look at, read, and discuss truthful
>> material about the Church. I didn't force him

> Nice approach...I'm glad you got a happy ending out of it.

Sounds like he did too!

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

Ha ha! Yep! He's not the type to read a book, so I had him read different sections or subjects on mormonthink and then we'd discuss. Also the occasional posts on feministmormonhousewives and wheat & tares.

I honestly think the most important part was the discussion because it forced him to really think about and analyze it, rather than dismiss and be deluded.

"So, not gonna lie, I used sexual favors to get my husband to look at, read, and discuss truthful material about the Church."

Well, that's only fair. I would wager that the promise of sex ie, "hormonal conversion" is how they are getting most of their best new recruits...

In my opinion, the more people that leave LDS Inc, the better; especially for future generations. I don't buy the "it works for them" line, I just think that they are simply too brainwashed to allow themselves to try anything different.

That being said, if you value your relationship(s) then know when to lay off. Its certainly worth a shot, because some TBM's WILL look at the truth through your efforts, eventually leaving LDS Inc. because of it, and some won't. So there is a point where you need to back off. Your efforts will pay off for some TBM's and not for others. Don't push too hard if you if causing problems in the relationship. Know your boundaries and be patient. And don't be dick either. We hate it when Mormons push their religion on us, don't be the same way. Don't be pushy and don't "attack" the church. Talk to them in a way so they don't get defensive or have to admit you are right.

My parents asked me why I stopped going to church. I told them and shared with them my "research." They read it after I suggested they do so. They resigned soon after. Had I followed the advice of some posters here my parents would probably still be Mormon. So I always think you should at try, but as in the case of SusieQ#1, you need to learn when to back off "agree to disagree."

Ex-CultMember Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I second the comments about knowing when to back off. I took it to the absolute limit before I "got it" - shut up or you are not going to save your relationship. The last thing I wanted or needed was a husband that didn't trust me!

I have shared info with people who had questions and they were open to reading and listening.

It required that I paid attention to where there was a door that was partially open or not. When it's closed tight, I learned to back off.

The time frame of our birth and how we were raised plays heavily into how well we can adapt also. We are the oldies! We were raised by Depression Era Parents - or lived through some of it, including WW2. We still had the draft. And from my experience, church was enjoyable. (I don't recognize the LDS Church these days - not the one I "grew up in Mormonism" with.)

The key, if there is one, is called: S L O W ! Take it all very slowly. Give the others around you time to adjust to your changes. People need time. Sometimes lots of time.

I also took the attitude that it was best to show respect. That got me a lot more mileage and .... respect back! And it required that I be a basically happy,content partner (not antagonistic, argumentative, bitter, resentful,angry).And I could do that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2013 10:53PM by SusieQ#1.

I am married to a TBM man. As much as I would love for him to learn the truth and leave, I know it will probably never happen (it's just not his personality type -- he is not a reader, a debater, a questioner, etc)

I am the "live and let live" type AS LONG AS others grant me the same. Unfortunately, that is pretty much impossible for TBMs to do. The sneering, condescending looks as I sip coffee, the slamming of doors and stomping out if I wear shorts above the knee, the snarky comments and pointed barbs meant to belittle me and make him feel more righteous... but if I confront him about his behavior, he denies it and accuses me of "being overly sensitive because the Holy Ghost is trying to help me realize I'm living wrong".

Some people may have TBM spouses who are able to truly allow their loved one the freedom to live according to their own will. I have yet to meet one in person, but I hear they are out there... somewhere...

I do not respect it as a faith for my loved one - a daughter converted. It is fraudulent. It is based on lies. I do not want my child encouraging others to join. I do not want my grandson going on a mission because his grandma on the other side is pushing him so much....as well as aunts and uncles....not sure my daughter would push so that part is good.

It is not just the designation - LDS. It is all they believe in ....forced tithing, baptisms for the dead, forcing members to wear certain undies so they can keep themselves pure....like they can't do this on their own, being told all other Christians are an abomination, being given callings instead of offering your services for what is needed, forced testimonies, not being social with outsiders - both at work and in the neighborhood in many cases ( having lived in Utah over four yrs. I was not talked to by Mormons -I was ignored ) I could go on and on. I want no child of mine involved in such an organization. EVER! I do agree with othes tho to not be argumentative. That did not work at all when we realized she was getting into this. I am completely resigned to the fact that this is what she is at the moment and I do not discuss it with her.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2013 01:40PM by honestone.

yeah I share the same school of thought as you.... it's a corrupt, judgmental and dishonest organization...I don't want my kids to have anything to do with it