In a previous thread, RfM poster “Jesus Smith” referenced an intriguing and informative science article on the brain activity of dying rats--one which underscored the neuro-biological realities (not spiritual mythologies) of so-called “near-death experiences” (NDEs).

(“NDE in Rats? Think Again, If You're Not Brain Dead,” posted by “Jesus Smith,” on “Recovery from Mormonism” discussion board, 13 August 2013, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,988289,988289#msg-988289)


The article, headlined “Near-Death Experiences Are 'Electrical Surge in Dying Brain,'” reports that based on the results of experiments published in the “Proceedings of the National Academy of Sicience,” the brain at edge of death is, according to the study’s lead author Dr. Jimo Borigin (University of Michigan), "much more active during the dying process than even the waking state."

The article reports that the near-death process of the brain involves a myriad of neurological sensations, as described by those experiencing the NDE, These range "[f]rom bright white lights to out-of-body sensations and feelings of life flashing before their eyes . . . .”

Borigin notes that tests performed on dying rats detected the presence of upper-frequency, electrically-pulsing gamma rays which “were found at even higher levels just after the cardiac arrest than when animals were awake and well”--and which Borigin believes could feasibly “happen in the human brain, and that an elevated level of brain activity and consciousness could give rise to near-death visions.”

The article reports the enthusiastic response of other scientists to the research findings:

“Commenting on the research, Dr. Jason Braithwaite, of the University of Birmingham, said the phenomenon appeared to be the brain's ‘last hurrah.’

"’This is a very neat demonstration of an idea that's been around for a long time: that under certain unfamiliar and confusing circumstances--like near-death--the brain becomes over-stimulated and hyper-excited,’ he said.

"’Like “fire raging through the brain,” activity can surge through brain areas involved in conscious experience, furnishing all resultant perceptions with realer-than-real feelings and emotions.’

“But he added: ‘One limitation is that we do not know when, in time, the near-death experience really occurs. Perhaps it was before patients had anaesthesia, or at some safe point during an operation long before cardiac arrest.

"’However, for those instances where experiences may occur around the time of cardiac arrest --or beyond it --these new findings provide further meat to the bones of the idea that the brain drives these fascinating and striking experiences.’”

(“Near-Death Experiences Are 'Electrical Surge in Dying Brain,'” by Rebecca Morelle, science reporter, “BBC World Service” 12 August 2013, at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23672150)
_____


These findings underscore what mainstream science has known for some time about both the planetary reality and the in-brain neuro-chemistry of “near-death experiences.”

As Matthew Alper, author of “The ‘God’ Part of the Brain: A Scientific Interpretation of Human Spirituality and God,” writes:

“. . . [[T]he near-death experience has been reported by a cross-section of nearly every population and must therefore constitute an inherent part of the human condition. As with all other cross-cultural behaviors, this would suggest that the near-death experience . . . most likely represents the consequence of a genetically-inherited trait, a biologically-based response to specific stimuli. Though near-death experiences are conventionally interpreted from a spiritual perspective—the consequence of a brief encounter with the afterworld—I assert that, like all other spiritually-conceived experiences, these, too, are STRICTLY NEURO-PHSYIOLOGICAL IN NATURE” (emphasis added).

Alper proceeds to make the case for the NDE as a purely biological, neurological and chemical phenomenon occurring within the brain itself that is NOT connected to, or stemming from, any so-called “out-of-body” or “spiritual” experience. He breaks these organic causes into various categories.
_____


--NDEs and the Depletion of Oxygen/Blood Flow to the Brain

Alper explains that oxygen and blood supplies are nearly always critical factors in the production of NDEs:

“For starts, near-death experiences almost always occur as a result of decreased blood flow to the brain and/or a lack of oxygen, usually from shock induced either fro severe infection (septic shock), from myocardial ischemia (cardiogenic shock), cardiac arrest or the effects of anesthesia. Apparently, the NDS is integrally linked to one’s physical chemistry.”
_____


--Accounts of Intense Bright Lights During NDEs Are Interpreted by Believers as Proof of an Immortal Soul and Afterlife, but Science Has a Sounder Explanation

Alper recounts how Plato, in his “Republic,” tells “the story of Er, the son of Armenius, who allegedly dies and then comes back to tell the story of his existence during his temporary ascension to heaven and consequent return to the living. During Er’s experience with death, he describes a vison he had of a ‘bright and pur column of light, extending right through the whole of heaven.’ Such descriptions of visions of a bright and often dazzling or blind light leading to heave constitutes one of the key symptoms of the NDE and therefore leads many to believe that what Plato was narrating was just that. It is through Er/s tale that Plato goes on to advance the notion of an immortal soul, as well as an afterlife in his work. As a matter of fact, the NDE might very well represent one of the primary means through which humans validate a belief in some form of an afterlife. . . .

“ . . . [A] common symptom of the NDE, similar to the one narrated [above]by Plato, is described as a sensation of being led down a dark tunnel and then drawn toward a blinding white light, one that is often interpreted as holding religious significance, such as being representative of heaven’s gates. (Such descriptions as these—of experiencing a ‘piercing’ or ‘blinding’ white light—have been attributed to activity within the brain’s optic nerve which has a tendency to erratically flare when deprived of its normal oxygen supply). It is during this same part of the experience that a person will often express a feeling of being engulfed, not just by ‘the light,’ but also by God’s presence.”
_____


--Endorphins Explain the NDE Ecstasy

Alper offers scientific explanations for NDE good vibrations:

“Though there is no international standard through which to formally define a NDE, studies show vast similarities in description of this phenomenon, ones that cross all cultural boundaries (Fenwick, 1997; Feng and Lin, 1976, Parischa and Stevenson, 1986) . . . [I]n the majority of recorded accounts, the first thing most recall of their experience is a feeling of intense fear and pain that is suddenly replaced by a sense of clam, peace and equanimity (similar to those sensations attributed to more generic spiritual experiences). To offer support of a neuro-physical model to explain this phenomenon, D. B Carr suggested (1981, 1989) that the aforementioned sensations, in so far as they are experienced during a NDE, might come as a result of a flood release of endogenous opiods (endorphins).”
_____


--The NDE Cousin (the Out-of-Body Experience") Is Way More In-the-Brain than Out-of-the-Body

Alper addresses the relationship between OBEs and NDEs:

“[In order of frequency after the ‘sense of calmness or euphoria’ produced in a NDE], the next most often-related symptom to occur during an NDE is that of an OBE, or ‘out-of-body’ experience. Here, the person describes a sensation of rising or floating outside of one’s physical body and, in some cases, even being able to look down at one’s self from above. One hospital, in order to validate claims of ‘out –of-‘body’ experiences, placed an LED marquee above its patients’ beds which displayed a secret message that could only be read if one were looking down from above. To date, not one person who has claimed to have had a NDE or ‘out-of-body’ experience from within this hospital has expressed having seen the message.

“During this part of the [NDE] experience, those undergoing an OBE have expressed a sense that their limbs are ‘moving within their mind,’ though they are actually immobile. This is similar to the type of hallucinations, or ‘confabulations,’ suffered by those who sustain right parietal lesions--yet another indication that such experiences can be traced to one’s neuro-physical activity as opposed to originating from one’s alleged spirit or soul.”
_____


--“Spiritual” Commonalities between NDEs, Epileptic Seizures and Psychedelic Drug Use

Alper explains the shared effects among the three:

“Similar to accounts of those who have had either a temporal lob seizure or experimented with entheogenic [psychedelic] drugs, those who have undergone a NDE will almost invariably interpret the experience as being spiritual in nature:

“’Hallucinogen ingestion and temporolimbic epilepsy produce a near-identical experience as described by persons having a near-death experience. These brain disturbances produce de-personalization, de-realization, ecstasy, a sense of timelessness and spacelessness, and other experiences that foster religious-numinous interpretation.’ (‘Journal of Neuropsychiatry: Clinical Neuroscience,' 1997, Summer 9[3], pp. 498-510)

“Consequently, it is no surprise that a significant number of those who undergo a NDE claim that it strengthens their faith in God, a soul and an afterlife. Regardless of how these experiences are interpreted, we must ask ourselves: ‘Is this type of experience transcendental in nature or, like all other types of spiritual experiences, are we dealing with a serious of strictly neuro-physical events?’”
_____


--NDEs are Facilitated by the Brain’s Chemical-Transmitting Receptors

Alper describes how brain-based chemicals create the NDE experience:

“One key to answering [the above] question comes through the research of a Dr. Karl Jansen who has found that ‘[n]ear-death experiences can be induced by using the dissociative drug ketamine’ (K.I.R. Jansen, M.D., ‘Using Ketamine to Induce the Near-Death Experience,’ p. 64).

"Dr. Jansen’s report goes on to state that ‘[i]t is now clear that NDEs are due to the blockade of brain receptors (drug-binding sites) for the neurotransmitter glutamate. These binding sites are called the N-methly-D-asparate (NMDA) receptors. Conditions which precipitate NDEs (low oxygen, low blood flow, low blood sugar, temporal lobe epilepsy, etc.) have been shown to release a flood of glutamate, over-activating NMDA receptors. Conditions which trigger a glutamate flood may also trigger a flood of ketamine-like brain chemicals, leading to an altered state of consciousness,’ (ibid., p. 73)

“It was also found than an intravenous injection of 50-100mg of ketamine reproduces all of the features commonly associated with the near-death experience. (Sputz, 1989; Jansen, 1995, 1996). Even Timothy Leary, the notorious psychedelic drug advocate of the 1960s, described his experiences with ketamine as an ‘experiment in voluntary death’ (Leary, 1983).

“Similar to the manner in which entheogenic drugs trigger the symptoms of a ‘spiritual’ experience, the drug ketamine can be used to synthetically trigger the symptoms of a near-death experience. “
_____


--Neuro-chemistry, Not Spirituality, is the Source of NDEs

Alper lays out the scientific foundations of NDEs:

“What [the above] suggests is that, as with any other type of spiritual experience, near-death experiences are rooted in our neuro-chemistry. Apparently, the NDE represents the consequence of a physiological mechanism that enables our species to cope with the overwhelming pain and anxiety associated with the experience of death and dying.

“Once again, though such evidence can never prove there is not spiritual reality, it is certainly indicative that this might very well be the case. “

(Matthew Alper, “The God Part of the Brain: A Scientific Interpretation of Human Spirituality and God” [New York, New York: Rogue Press, 2000], Chapter 8, “Near-Death Experiences,” pp. 140-43, and “Endnotes,” #79-81, p. 177)

**********


For those who might still want to believe in the alleged "spiritual/religious/godly/immortal" reality of NDEs, you're in a sense right:

It's all in your head. Enjoy the ride.

:)



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 06:08AM by steve benson.

cheeze 'n rice. How many posts this month must we endure about this? Let it go dude, let it go. We all know how you feel about it. ad naseum....

No one but yourself is making you "endure" them; that only happens when you choose to open the thread. You could save yourself the personal pain by simply ignoring them, ya know. :)

And, by the way, I was responding to a post on NDEs put up independently and recently by "Jesus Smith" (please complain in his thread, too, about how he is inflicting unendurable agony on you by his choice of topic--and by all the responses that have ensued from interested repliers),

Oh, the inhumanity of it all!



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 03:40AM by steve benson.

I could, except there's a new one every single goddamn day!

Why can't you just ignore them? No internal discipline? :)

How many new posts a day do you see on Joseph Smith? (and about which I have yet to see you complain)

Apparently, your sacred NDE cow has been gored.

Just moooooooooooove on if you can't take 'em.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 03:30AM by steve benson.

I have ignored them. For the past 2-3 months. Sick of seeing them now. Am I trying to engage you in a discussion about them? Nope, cuz you are ALWAYS right. And no matter what I type here, you will be the #1 authority on it. I just came here to say that I'm tired of seeing posts about NDE's. That's pretty much it. Carry on now, carry on..because we both know damn well that you will! Again, and again, and again, and again.

And yes, I know there are other forums. There are other threads. I chose to comment on this one tonight before going to bed. Enjoy your rinse and repeat.

If seeing them makes you sick, then why do you sicken yourself by opening them?

Off you go, then, and be sure to check for another NDE thread under your bed :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 03:35AM by steve benson.

because I like Uncle Dale?

Thanks for your continued interest. :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 03:37AM by steve benson.

never said I was sick. but it may or may not be sick to post the same tired shit over and over again about one subject just to prove that you are RIGHT....ALL.THE.TIME! Plus, I work a night shift and go to bed at 2am. I was brushing my teeth. Now I'm really gone and you can post another snarky reply in reply to my reply and then spew out a bunch more #1 authority facts about something you just can't let go of. Hopefully, we can get in another 50-100 threads about this topic before the end of August. I'm really looking forward to ignoring the rest of them.

I will admit, you got me on this one though! My patience wore thin.

Take two aspirins and call back in the morning (but only after you've brushed your teeth).

Nighty-nite!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 06:02AM by steve benson.

While my father was a life-long, highly dedicated atheist,
he reported some very peculiar happenings during his NDE
on the hospital operating table and in the morgue, where
he was taken after being pronounced legally dead by one
of the attending surgeons.

About a week after his resuscitation, after he had returned
home and was able to relate his experiences, he provided
these details:

1. Towards the end of the surgery, his consciousness left
his body and was positioned above the operating table. From
that perspective he watched the hospital staff shut down
the life support systems -- saw his body tagged for the
morgue -- watched with disinterest as it was wheeled to
the hospital basement.

2. His consciousness next observed the attending physician
meet my mother in the waiting room -- inform her of his
death on the operating table -- obtain her signature to a
paper on a clipboard he (the doctor) was carrying.

3. He followed after my mother -- watched her conversing
with other people in the hospital -- saw her reaction, a
little latter, when she was called back into the waiting
room and informed that he had been taken from the morgue
back into an operating room.

4. Although he did not witness his body's resuscitation,
he did report the strange experience of "floating" out of
the confines of the hospital building, watching people in
an adjacent parking lot -- and then experiencing what he
termed a "gradual fading away."

The report he thus gave, about a week after the NDE, was
confirmed, in large part, by both my mother and a nurse
who was present during the period of his "death." There
were too many confirmed details to be attributable to
pure coincidence, or to some standard set of NDE delusions
experienced by all such victims.

My father nevertheless remained an atheist. He believed that
nothing supernatural had occurred -- that one day Science
would find answers to explain the phenomenon of consciousness
being able to exist, for a short period, separated from the
body and the brain.

UD

steve benson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> n/t

I would like to hear the explanation of how a man declared
legally dead by the surgeon(s) operating on him, could
later provide an accurate description of the attendant
wheeling his lifeless body down a hallway, into an elevator
and into the hospital morgue.

Perhaps the standard explanation would be that he made
some good guesses, that just happened to end up matching
the events associated with the NDE.

He certainly had no reason to tell lies. He hated religion
before the NDE, and hated it just as much afterwards. In
fact, he used the experience to "prove" to family and
friends that there was no such thing as an afterlife......

..... but, that consciousness can continue for a short
period, separated from body and brain by several hundred
feet -- observing and mentally recording actual, confirmable
events.

Before he died the second time, he told us that one day
Science would explain how a person could observe events
separated from his/her "dead" body by several hundred feet.

I have the feeling that no such explanation will be
forthcoming during my lifetime, at least -- and, perhaps,
it will never be adequately explained.

UD

. . . supposed "flat-liners," so-called, weren't actually dead.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 04:05AM by steve benson.

steve benson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> supposed "flat-liners," so-called, weren't
> actually dead.

That much he would have agreed with -- the folks in
the morgue noticed that his body temperature was not
as cold as it should have been. They suspected some
life left in him, and rushed the body back to the
doctors for hopeful resuscitation. He later understood
how all of that happened, from a logical viewpoint.

His awareness of events in the operating room and
during the short journey to the morgue might be
explained by highly sensitive, sub-conscious awareness,
coming from the usual physical senses and brain.

But that would not explain the perception of the doctor
informing my mother of the "death," her interaction
with the doctor and her actions following all of that.

The interaction of my the doctor with my mother occurred
several hundred feet away, three floors above the morgue,
where the body was then being processed.

Call it "remote viewing" or "extra-sensory perception,"
or whatever -- it was an unusual phenomenon.

UD

For a discussion of misdiagnosed "flat-lined" cases, among other situations involving the rational and scientific explanations of NDEs, see the professional responses and observations of anesthesiologist, Dr. G.M. Woerlee, at; http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,976496,976496#msg-976496

Also, it would be good at this point to recall Goethe's observation: "Mysteries are not necessarily miracles."



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 04:07AM by steve benson.

steve benson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For a discussion of misdiagnosed "flat-lined"
> cases, among other situations involving the
> rational and scientific explanations of NDEs, see
> the professional responses and observations of
> anesthesiologist, Dr. G.M. Woerlee, at;
> http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,976496,97649
> 6#msg-976496
>
> Also, it would be good at this point to recall
> Goethe's observation: "Mysteries are not
> necessarily miracles."

Well, here is something like a conclusion, from the
tail-end of that piece:

>"As to distant out-of-body experiences where they
>make observations at a distance, there are anecdotal
>stories of these reports actually describing the
>reality at the time and what was seen and what was
>heard. However, when you examine these very carefully
>and look at the evidence piece by piece, you find that
>there are many inaccuracies and it does not always
>correspond all that well.

In other words -- if I'm reading this correctly --
human consciousness cannot leave the brain. It resides
there until actual death. So -- any reports to the
contrary, in NDE's out-of-body reports, etc. must
somehow be hiding (or glossing over) "inaccuracies."

Perhaps my father said that the doctor was holding his
clipboard in the left hand (when it was actually in the
right hand), and thus an "inaccuracy" was skipped over
and lost ---- leading friends and family to believe that
my father's made-up story was factually correct, when it
really wasn't.

I suppose I can live with that sort of an explanation.

UD

. . . in the morgue didn't think he was dead.

Alper's assessment of NDEs provides a good overview for the layperson as to the scientific conclusions. My Woerlee link for you (actually a two-parter) is quite comprehensive from a professional standpoint. The neuro-chemical nature of NDEs has reached the point of scientific consensus, at least in mainstream quarters. Sure, there is always more to learn, test, affirm and falsify (that's, after all, the scientific method) but the empirical basics on NDE origins have long been established and accepted.

There are all kinds of good, sound, rational responses out there to classic go-to's which NDE true-believers predictablhy throw up as "proof" of a NDE-verified afterlife, a soul, etc.--the Pam Reynold's case; "Maria's shoe," et al. It simply doesn't hold up--any more than creationism does.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 04:58AM by steve benson.

steve benson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...afterlife, a soul, etc.

Those things don't interest me -- except in a poetic
or fanciful way.

What does interest me are the limits of human perception
and cognition.

If I claim to see a comet hit the face of the moon, my
"line-of-sight" observation can be checked for accuracy.

If I claim to perceive a comet hitting the dark side
of the moon, then the best possible answer will be that
due to sheer coincidence, I've made a lucky guess that
just happened to be factual (if there were such a comet).

Human beings cannot perceive events, out of their line
of sight/sensing, at great distances. Period.

Or -- perhaps we still have something to learn about
that subject. Perhaps consciousness/awareness can be
separated from the physical sensory organs and still
perceive actual events at a distance.

I'm willing to hear arguments for both sides of the
proposition -- and especially so, after having heard
my father describe what he told us.

UD

. . . and haven't been for a long time.

It's like creationism; mainstream professional scientists know that the empiricals on organic evolution have been well-established and so most of them don't spend a whole lot of time trying to explain the details to hot-headed, stubborn, uninformed religionists who either don't get or don't respect the science (Why waste their time when they'd rather be researching?) Yeah, some particulars still need to be worked out here and there but that's where continuing investigation comes in.

That said, in terms of the big picture, the fairy-tale book on NDEs in closed. Same goes for the one on OBEs.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 08:19AM by steve benson.

I will gladly listen to any of these kinds of accounts, right up to point when they claim they met Jesus, duly acknowledging that your provided account did not do that.

Thanks

Thanks for sharing your Dad's exerience Uncle Dale. It has overtones of my mother's experience. I am glad you are not listening to the nay/sayers!

... better understand possible explanations from a scientific point of view:

"Cases of non-dead flat-liners--For a discussion of misdiagnosed 'flat-lined' cases, among other situations involving the rational and scientific explanations of NDEs, see the professional responses and observations of anesthesiologist, Dr. G.M. Woerlee, at; http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,976496,976496#msg-976496

"Also, it would be good at this point to recall Goethe's observation: 'Mysteries are not necessarily miracles.'"
___


The physical, biological, chemical and neurological realities of NDEs have been empirically researched, understood and explained to the satisfaction of mainstream, modern-day science. If they hadn't been, everyone one in the field would be scrambling to win a Nobel prize by discovering, then boldly announcing in peer-reviewed journals world-wide, some astounding new evidence that points to the supernatural or some other phenomenal breakout regarding the operative factors behind NDE causation.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 05:08AM by steve benson.

fluhist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for sharing your Dad's exerience Uncle
> Dale. It has overtones of my mother's experience.
> I am glad you are not listening to the
> nay/sayers!


It really doesn't make much difference to me, one way
or the other. I long ago gave up hoping to understand
everything that was seemingly important.

I have another story, of a girl who reported the death
of her twin, hundreds of miles away -- just as it
happened. Science says that such things are impossible:
that human beings cannot actually sense occurrences
at great distances away from brain and body.

I'm not so sure of that as some folks might be. Perhaps
your mother experienced something so unusual that Science
has not yet provided its definitive and final answer.

UD

. . . but it's short on details. Is it anecdotal? Was it reported? How was the story passed along, by whom and how soon after the event occurred? Witnesses? Evidence that can be checked? It doesn't count, of course, as a NDE or an OBE but maybe you can start your own separate thread on it. :)
_____


In the meantime, here's another story for you. Ask yourself: Is it a coincidence? Or is it proof of supernaturalism at work? Or is it maybe a manifestation of energy fields operating in ways that science can't explain? It comes by way of a recent RfM post where someone said his friend saw him in a dream going on a mission to Canada and . . . well, I'll let him tell the story:

"Coincidence that 'proves' mission calls are inspired"
Posted by: Holy the Ghost
Date: August 13, 2013 06:16PM

"A week before I received my mission assignment letter (I hate the way the church has misappropriated the term 'calling,'), I was hanging with a friend and he told me he knew where I was going. He said

"'I had a dream last night. I saw President Benson signing your calling. The letter said 'Dear Elder Ghost, we are sorry to inform you that you are going to Saskatchewan.'

"A few days later the assignment came--Canada Winnipeg. I spent 17 of the 24 months in Saskatchewan.

"I used to share this as a faith promoting story while I was on the mission. Now it's a cute improbability."

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,988947,988947#msg-988947



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 05:48AM by steve benson.

I agree. I don't look for explanations, I just know that what my mother said happened to her is true. There was NO reason for her to lie. If sometime science comes up with a logical explanation I will accept it, but as of now, they have yet to do that, and I simply am left with my mother's experience, and a oouple of strange things that have happened to me that I can't explain. Its OKAY!! I can live with it and don't need to argue, but I find people who INSIST I think their way, tiring.

. . . and swear that it's somehow unassailable in its reconstruction to you and therefore unworthy of scientific dissection. That way, you can ignore the possible biological explanations from professional researchers across many disciplines and thereby avoid arguing.

By the way, no one said your mom was lying. That still, however, does not mean that was she claimed happened was beyond the explanation of science.

Plus, I'm not insisting that you think my way. Think whatever way you wish, regardless of the science; or, better yet, testify (although that, for me, gets tiring). :)



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 05:34AM by steve benson.

fluhist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree. I don't look for explanations, I just
> know that what my mother said happened to her is
> true. There was NO reason for her to lie. If
> sometime science comes up with a logical
> explanation I will accept it, but as of now, they
> have yet to do that, and I simply am left with my
> mother's experience, and a oouple of strange
> things that have happened to me that I can't
> explain. Its OKAY!! I can live with it and don't
> need to argue, but I find people who INSIST I
> think their way, tiring.


I have a neighbor here in Hawaii who is "insistent"
in that sort of way.

For the most part, he's a decent, intelligent fellow:
but he will never lose an argument -- never.

I might say to him, "Is there one chance in a million
that what you just said might be wrong?"

But, before I asked the rhetorical question, I'd know
his response: "What! Me be wrong!! That never happens!"

I try to overlook that aspect -- since he's a fairly
nice guy in other ways.

UD

Amen and amen, Steve, you are RIGHT as you always are!! Goodnight and sweet dreams!!

. . . scientifically explainable?

You wouldn't believe it anyway, so why argue? :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 05:01AM by steve benson.

As far as knowing what's happening outside of the body, I did hear an explanation from a Quantum Physicist once.

They said that since we know in the Quantum world that particles can be in two places at once, that perhaps as cells begin to die, they can actually exist outside of the body for a short period of time.

Particles would begin to scatter and could actually escape the body. That could give the perception of being outside of the body and could possibly allow them to be aware of something going on outside of their body at the time.

But it would only last for a certain amount of time, as the cells continued to die off.

It wasn't woo-woo stuff. It was science. A new study of science maybe, but the possibility is there. Not the soul leaving the body, but simply a normal part of particles scattering as their host dies.

I haven't really researched the subject of NDE's other than what I've read on this board, but the fact that people are so desperate to believe in them is an indication to me that they might not be real. Not enough wanting to find out what is really happening and too much already having the answer.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 08:24AM by steve benson.

Greyfort, it sounds like the quantum physicist forgot to quantify what a "short period of time" is or what the probabilities are. A particle can't be in two places at once, but its location is uncertain as defined by the "uncertainty principle".

For an entire cell to appear outside a body for a fraction of a second, from a quantum physics point of view you are talking about an enormous mass over a ridiculous distance for an almost eternal amount of time. All of that equates to such a small probability that it would have most likely never have happened in billions of universes over billions of years.

I can't say that it is impossible, only that I can't overstate how unlikely it is.