Europeanview? had a thread about mormons thinking that they knew what was best for her child, and being arrogant enough to try to take over the parenting.
This seemed similar to me. A lady that is so arrogant that she thinks she should go on TV to brag about what a great disciplinarian she is. Then gets her ass arrested for child abuse.
And the great irony is the arrest for abuse was for the exact thing that she was arrogantly bragging about. The thing that she thought the rest of the country ought to learn from her.
It will go to trial probably and then there will be all kinds of arguments for what is or is not abuse and what is a criminal act. It's possible this could be a test case for Alaska? Some don't approve, but some don't think it's abuse or a criminal act. Going to be interesting to follow this.
the last line maybe why it going to court "The case has attracted the attention of Russian media because the boy and his twin brother were adopted from Russia when they were 5 years old, said Franklin, the prosecutor"
I thought the hot sauce was bad, but when that little boy was in the shower crying and begging for her to stop, it made me ill. I couldn't finish watching.
I don't know how any mother could hear that and then continue to punish the child. Especially for a 7 year old boy who is just kinda acting like a 7 year old boy will.
Her reaction all the way through the portion of the video I saw just seemed so alien to me. But of course, I'm not a 36 year old overwhelmed with 6 young kids, either. That's a recipe for disaster.
Thousands of people are taking cold showers as I type this because the utilities are off because of the storms. People swim in cold water, even ice water as a health benefit.
And, of course, people eat hot sauce all over the world.
I'll be interested in how the attorney's equate these two activities as a criminal act when used as punishment for a child and how it's defended.
Disclaimer: I am not promoting either as punishment for a child, but considering the kinds of things done in the name of discipline in the generation before me, those would never meet the claims of abuse in years past.
By god, SusieQ, I think you are on to something here.
Thousands, hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of -little girls in different parts of the world have been subjected to genital mutilation.
-women have been subjected to brutal torture, mutilation, or death for some insignificant act that “shamed”’ their family name.
-girls and women on the African continent are gang-raped and left with their bodies broken and no medical assistance, so they live their lives with the damage and are blamed for what happened to them and ostracized from their families and communities.
The generation before you didn’t do a goddamn thing about it, so pfffft, we shouldn’t either. When you know better, you do better…and we know better NOW.
SusieQ#1 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Thousands of people are taking cold showers as I > type this because the utilities are off because of > the storms. People swim in cold water, even ice > water as a health benefit. >
Susie, some things that are true are not helpful. And this is one of them.
I know you want the whole world to hold hands and sing in perfect harmony, but I'll be pissed if you get any converts on this one.
Did you watch the video? Are you really a cold and cruel heartless old lady, who masquerades as peace and love all the time?
Go back and watch the video again, and tell me that the boy wasn't suffering emotional abuse in that shower!
Yes there are people who love to do the polar bear plunge and get on the news etc. They are happy and smiling. Hint for you as you watch the video again... HE'S NOT SMILING AND LAUGHING, HE'S TERRIFIED, FREEZING, DEMEANED, AND BEING SCREAMED AT!!
This wasn't a fun little dip in the ice like people all over the world do for fun and health benefits!
You defend, defend, defend the LDS church, and now you are excusing emotional abuse. Yup, I've been pushed over the edge by the fake niceness this time.
Put your money where your mouth is. Give me permission to come to your house, and put you in a freezing shower while I yell and demean you. I dare you. It'll be just like the other fun people doing it for their health benefits.
Let me know if you are up for it. And if you aren't up for it. Stop minimizing what was done to him.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2011 04:55PM by DNA.
I have made it clear I do NOT approve or defend this woman, not in the least. I'll say it again:I do not approve or defend this woman's choice of discipline, not in the least.
I didn't say it was OK to do what she did to the child. Never.
I am pointing out, again, how the courts and a jury may see this. They will have to prove it's abuse (or a criminal act) in court, however, they may not go to court, it may be settled with a plea deal.
Pay attention to what I post. Stop twisting it around to mean something I didn't say or intimate.
I've worked with the court system regarding children and abuse cases. It's not easy to get a conviction. Maybe it's easier in Alaska, with a video from Dr. Phil. That may be her undoing.
SusieQ#1 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I have made it clear I do NOT approve or defend > this woman, not in the least. > I'll say it again:I do not approve or defend this > woman's choice of discipline, not in the least. > > I didn't say it was OK to do what she did to the > child. Never. > > I am pointing out, again, how the courts and a > jury may see this. They will have to prove it's > abuse (or a criminal act) in court, however, they > may not go to court, it may be settled with a plea > deal. > > Pay attention to what I post. Stop twisting it > around to mean something I didn't say or intimate. > > > I've worked with the court system regarding > children and abuse cases. It's not easy to get a > conviction. Maybe it's easier in Alaska, with a > video from Dr. Phil. That may be her undoing.
Compared to the brain injured kids on the news every night who are that way because some adult threw them across the room or compared to kids who are burned, or raped, this is fairly mild. Like SusieQ, I do not defend this, but the courts have seen a lot worse and may not see this as real abuse. I hope , at the minimum, she is forced to get some counseling and is closely monitored.
bona dea Wrote: -------------------------------------------------------
> Compared to the brain injured kids on the news > every night who are that way because some adult > threw them across the room or compared to kids who > are burned, or raped, this is fairly mild. Like > SusieQ, I do not defend this, but the courts have > seen a lot worse and may not see this as real > abuse. I hope , at the minimum, she is forced to > get some counseling and is closely monitored.
We could do the same thing for rapes, and set you off big time.
Compared to a violent and brutal abduction rapes, a date rape "is fairly mild".
Does it feel the same when it's used in the same way about something you care a little more about?
Logically, it should sound just the same as what you said.
Perhaps emotional abuse on kids is a hot button issue for me. I hate it being defended as not so bad. Or it could have been worse.
Picture your words coming from a slimy defense attorney who is cross examining a victim of a date rape after a night of parting.
He could give examples of much worse rapes, like you did with abuse on children that is worse, and then get the victim in cross examination to admit that hers was "fairly mild" by comparison".
Come on, admit it. It would piss you off if you heard that in court. But it's the same thing you are doing here.
I guess we each have our hot buttons where we don't like things minimized. And apparently this is mine.
SusieQ#1 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I have made it clear I do NOT approve or defend > this woman, not in the least. > I'll say it again:I do not approve or defend this > woman's choice of discipline, not in the least. > > I didn't say it was OK to do what she did to the > child. Never. > > I am pointing out, again, how the courts and a > jury may see this. They will have to prove it's > abuse (or a criminal act) in court, however, they > may not go to court, it may be settled with a plea > deal. > > Pay attention to what I post. Stop twisting it > around to mean something I didn't say or intimate. > > > I've worked with the court system regarding > children and abuse cases. It's not easy to get a > conviction. Maybe it's easier in Alaska, with a > video from Dr. Phil. That may be her undoing.
Here's what you actually said.
SusieQ#1 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Thousands of people are taking cold showers as I > type this because the utilities are off because of > the storms. People swim in cold water, even ice > water as a health benefit. > > And, of course, people eat hot sauce all over the > world. > > I'll be interested in how the attorney's equate > these two activities as a criminal act when used > as punishment for a child and how it's defended. > > Disclaimer: I am not promoting either as > punishment for a child, but considering the kinds > of things done in the name of discipline in the > generation before me, those would never meet the > claims of abuse in years past.
Now you sound like a dumb parent that shouts and whips a child, and then says that I did this because I love you. Sometimes the niceties after the fact don't mean much.
Ya ya, you later decided to stop defending and say that you don't agree with it, but that was after you defended it.
I sure as hell hope that you didn't have any real power or influence as you worked in the courts with children of abuse.
Prosecutor: This was a heinous crime your honor.
SusieQ: It wasn't that bad your honor, lots of people even punch each other for fun. There is even a sport where people pay to watch guys beat each other till one of them is unconscious. What this parent did wasn't so bad.
OK, it's clear I'm pissed at you. I'll go work on something and see if I'm still pissed when I read your response a third time.
I'll hope you go watch the video of the shower scene, and read your words about how lovely cold water is for some people again.
MJ Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > But if they do it out side the ring, well it just > may well be a criminal act. > > Some things when done in an appropriate time, > place and way are not criminal, but are criminal > when done inappropriately. > > Hot sauce is fine if used the way it should be > used, but it would still be criminal to use it to > harm a child.
And that is most likely what the prosecutor is going to claim. IF....it goes to court. I'm of the opinion that this may not go to court -- that she'll be offered and take a plea deal of some sort, probably taking the adoptive children away...just guessing of course.
As a mother through international adoption, I'd like to shove some hot sauce down this woman's throat.
She is the last thing these kids need. They often do need a lot of structure and routine, but they don't need abuse.
And I cringe when this stuff hits the media. She's doing her part to help keep other kids stuck in orphanages around the world. This is exactly the kind of thing that causes a halt to international adoption programs.
Discipline is not punishment. They are two separate issues. Discipline is to 'bring to order and obedience by training and control' (Webster's). No mention of hitting, shaming, or otherwise physically or mentally harming a person.
The whole situation begs the question: why is this kid so continually acting out? What's going on in that family?
The fact is that hot sauce can actually cause physical burns, especially in children. The further fact is that cold showers (especially in Alaska) can cause shock and hypothermia. The final fact is that the mother admitted on national television that she just never bonded with the poor child. She was abusing him. His possible (probably even) Attachment Disorder is simply secondary. She was an abusive mother and hopefully prosecuting her will send a message to others that there are better ways to deal with children.
The following dramatization is brought to you by former LDS Social Services volunteers:
Prosecution: "As you can see in the video THE WHOLE WORLD SAW ON DR. PHIL WITH THE EXCEPTION OF ONE PERSON, she verbally abused the child then forced hot sauce down the his throat."
Defense: "People add hot sauce to meals everyday, so what's wrong with drinking it straight from the bottle?"
Prosecution: "As you can see in the video THE WHOLE WORLD SAW ON DR. PHIL WITH THE EXCEPTION OF ONE PERSON, She verbally abused the child again and forced him to take a cold shower IN ALASKA"
Defense: "Maybe she was just trying to conserve energy."
Judge: "CASE DISMISSED"
LDS Social Services Volunteers: Defending the Priesthood Against Bad Publicity No Matter Who Gets Hurt!
Rebeckah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The fact is that hot sauce can actually cause > physical burns, especially in children. The > further fact is that cold showers (especially in > Alaska) can cause shock and hypothermia. The final > fact is that the mother admitted on national > television that she just never bonded with the > poor child. She was abusing him. His possible > (probably even) Attachment Disorder is simply > secondary. She was an abusive mother and hopefully > prosecuting her will send a message to others that > there are better ways to deal with children.
I'm sure all of this will be brought out in the trial, if it goes t trial. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. I don't approve, not in the least. The attorneys will find all kinds of ways to prove it's abuse, and to defend it as not abuse.
I also hope that her adopted children, at the very least, are removed from her care.
She honestly seems to have some attachment disorder herself AND her mother in the audience also seemed to be very unemotional.
Finally I hope that this woman gets some help and is eventually able to learn how to be a loving, involved and competent parent. I honestly wonder just how much the Morg, with its emphasis on conditional love, has to do with this situation. I'm leaning towards thinking her dysfunctionality is multi-generational and trained.
You wouldn't use physical punishment on a child with a mental disorder. This child obviously being adopted at 5 yearss old has some attachment disorders. This child has behavioural problems that lie deeper than disobeying. He obviously can not physically control himself. He needs therapy and understanding.
NOT ONCE did she talk to him about how he could make better choices or ask him how he could do better next time, now that he knows the teacher doesn't like this behaviour. There was NO communication at all. Once the mother saw the cards she became irate and accusatory she didn't seem to understand that fighting with pencils isn't the end of the world. Boys do dumb things, but if you don't talk about why something that seems harmless to the child, could actually end up poking one of their eyes out, they just see it as you are raining on their parade.
I'm so glad something is happening to this woman. Therapy is needed for that poor child and the rest of her children.
I have two grandsons who need that kind of teaching for behavior issues. One with ADHD and one with autism -- they get discipline, of course, but they also get conversation about what they did, why it didn't work, what works better. (Discipline would be loosing privileges or extra chores or that sort of thing.) It means nothing, though, unless a chance to learn from mistakes is available.
Thanks for the information; I was hoping we would see some follow up on this situation.
I'm afraid much worse may have been going on than cold showers and hot sauce. Mrs. Bagely was PROUD of this methods of disciple and had them filmed.
I believe Dr. Phil promised her some counseling and mentoring by child professionals. If she would have humbled herself, took their words to heart, and improved her relationship with the kids, I doubt the cops would be knocking at her door.
I speculate that after Dr. Phil's intervention, she probably told them all to go to the hot place, so the police had to be called as a last ditch effort.
I bet she is on the phone to everyone she knows saying how mean Dr. Phil was, and that she is the victim of this whole drama.
She was clever enough to think up punishments that would not leave a mark on the kids. She might be able to wiggle off the hook.
"In the video, Beagley is punishing the boy for "pulling three cards," a reference to three reports from his school of bad behavior."
He goes to a school of bad behavior? Well, there's the problem! lol
Earlier, in the thread, the attempt to down play the abuse by justifying that other people in the world do it to themselves willing is just absurd. I'm glad you don't babysit my children.
Lots of guys record videos of having people hit them in balls.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2011 05:22PM by milamber.
milamber Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The article states > > "In the video, Beagley is punishing the boy for > "pulling three cards," a reference to three > reports from his school of bad behavior." > > He goes to a school of bad behavior? > Well, there's the problem! lol > > Earlier, in the thread, the attempt to down play > the abuse by justifying that other people in the > world do it to themselves willing is just absurd. > I'm glad you don't babysit my children. > > Lots of guys record videos of having people hit > them in balls.
Nobody is justifying it. It is just that the courts who hear cases where children have been forced to sit on hot stoves,set on fire raped or thrown across the room and left in a vegetative state or dead, may not see hot sauce and cold water as real abuse. Personally, I hope something is done, but let's stop twisting people's words. Some posters seem to make a career of doing just that amd it is really juvenile..