if a tithing family tithes of off 200k they still have 180k to live on. If someone is really wealthy they can use investment dividends and not even have to touch their regular income. and they get a tax deduction. If a person is tithing off of 10k or even 20k every penny really matters. I don't know why they can't make it progressive. kids really get the short end of this because they get less food/ poorer quality food. I think that is why most of my ward members were really fat, and I think that is why. they really need the money to remodel their home, send kids to college, buy food, summer camp and clothes for kids. I noticed that at church with one notable exception everyone wears the same thing every sunday.

I was recently dialoguing with a young man who is now ex mo but returned to SLC to help his TBM parents. They have consistently tithed , even as Dad's business failed, mum became ill, and they ultimately lost their home. Their ward would not help them, they are now without a home, but they continue to tithe. It puzzles me. And it's sad.

who would pay their tithing rather than buy necessities.


My friend's mother, retired and on a fixed income, was paying tithing rather than buying needed medications.

I had some ultra TBM family members who I assume paid tithing on their meager income. They needed a working car and some important functional home repairs. A couple of hundred dollars per month would have made a huge difference for them. Their kids only got used clothing or hand-me-downs.

It's not right for people who don't even have enough for themselves to be supporting a rich church. If anything, the church should be helping THEM.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2013 08:53PM by imaworkinonit.

Its really tragic how many lives are ruined due to this insistence upon tithing.

Also, in the US you can donate appreciated securities and avoid capital gains taxes as well.

So if you bought stock at $100 and sold it for $200 you would normally have to pay capital gains taxes on the $100 gain. However, if you bought stock at $100 and donate that stock to TSCC (at $200 fair market value), you get credit with the church for the $200 donation and neither they nor you have to pay capital gains taxes on the $100 gain from purchase.

People with lesser means don't usually have the ability to pay tithing with appreciated assets like stocks.

The 10% non-progressive tithing "tax", the fact that your contribution is deductible only if you make enough to itemize, and the ability to pay tithing with appreciated assets to avoid capital gains, all contribute to making tithing a really crappy deal for the working poor. Good thing God is also Republican.

Good post Dawkins!

Love your books too :-)

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=28207


Send any TBM to this thread.

its a lite, pro LDS forum.

Even the hard cores on this site eventually accepted that tithing was and is on surplus, not net, not gross.

You can't get a good (?) Christian to not pay tithing, we can all understand the widows mite.

However, this uses scripture and LDS history to "unlock the shackles" of pretty well everyones mind.

Long thread, page 1 was sufficient for me.

Also, not just because they didn't have the money for good, healthy food but because a lot of people eat for stress - especially when many other relaxation activities are prohibited - like slogging around the house on Sunday, or drinking a beer, or ... well, whatever. So money is tight and time is over-scheduled and no one is very happy but hey, at least soft serve ice cream at McDonalds is only 50 cents a cone.

When I had my own basement apartment, they laid us off one day a week so that suddenly I was living on 4 days per week pay, instead of the usual 5.

I had everything down to only rent, the most basic TV, most basic phone line, gasoline to get to work, my car insurance and food. I had no gasoline left over to visit my family or go out with friends. I was really lonely.

Once I paid the basic bills, I had $16 left for food, for every two weeks.

They kept putting pressure on me to pay my tithing first. I said, "And what bill do you suggest I not pay in order to pay my tithing? My rent maybe? Because even if I get rid of the TV and the phone, that doesn't come close to covering the amount of my tithing."

They didn't even hear me. They'd just say, "Pay your tithing first and everything will fall into place."

No it wouldn't. I'd just be out on the street, but by golly, I'd have my union dues paid to the Lard's one true church.

We have a progressive tax system for a reason.

In order to survive, you need a basic income. That could be the poverty level, although that varies by region and family need.

If you make $20k a year, then tithing reduces your income to $18k. If you make $100k, then you still have $90k to live on.

It is a lot easier to cut $10k from a $100k budget than to cut $2k from a $20k budget. Mitt Romney, who made $14m one year, was left with a mere $12.6m to live off from the tithing bite.

Many decades ago I was a full tithe payer. I was always taught to pay my tithing and if trouble ever came the church would help
One day my wife was stranded on her way home from visiting her mother. I was a struggling airman with little money.
I went to the bishop and asked for a $100 loan for three days. He said no cash, he said he would give me food. I explained twice, my wife was robbed and needed cash to pay for a hotel and food. He was adamant he could not help me.
I ended up selling every piece of furniture in the living room and the dining set to take care of business.
I never worried about paying a dime since that day.
The fun was making the HT, VT and even the bishop sit on the floor when they visited. I explained to one and all the wonderful benefits of tithing and the amazing safety net it had.

boy did that bishop screw up or what. he could have gotten a donation from a wealthier member, or taken some from the fast offering fund- but NO- he had the compassion of a gnat
hope everyone in the family always remembers that

I got a smile from reading you got them to sit on the floor and explain why. Priceless.

But that does not make up for the lack of compassion that was shown by the bishop.

wrong place



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2013 02:18PM by deconverted2010.

The real shame is that tithing is not you increase "what you bring home" but on your gross. Meaning it becomes 12% to 20% of your take pay or maybe more in europe in some of the high tax countries.

So:
if a family tithes as expected, and then cannot afford to buy healthy, wholesome , fresh food for their family ( which doesnt come cheap), they are then compensated because the bishop MIGHT send someone over with a bag of mealy cornmeal and some mouldy bread and canned hash? How does that compensate? how does that make everything right? Its like asking someone to donate the shirt off their back and then handing them a pair of socks.

Tithing is like a flat tax, it's simplicity is appealing to simple minds, it "sounds fair", but it ignores the reality that a certain level of income is required just to "exist". For the well off it never touches them at the level of denying them the income to exist...

Pentecostals are good at this con game as well.

Before experimenting with life as a doubting Thomasine Morg, I learnt that world well. Once attended a pent. evangelical big church in Juneau hosted by the gold watch salesman " Hollywood Mike". ( lol, sorry if offensive.)In Alaska, MOST people do receive the annual permanent fund divident (pfd). Hollywood Mike and goons made a habit of strong arming the entire congregation ,demanding they sign over their pfds to the church! Those who would not, were excommunicated on the spot.
So, for example, one year the pfd was about 1200 per family member. That would be , then , 120 per family member to the church. Some people depended on that for groceries, gas money, rent, sending kids to dentist, basic necesities but most sheep gleefully gave up their 10% on demand. Now Hollywood Mike drives a gold cadillac.

Tithing is what finally drove me out of the Christian Fundamentalist Church!

In 1978, I was trying to get a position with the Southern Pacific Railroad while I was attending a Fundie/ Pentecostal church in Arcadia, CA. I had managed to get a first interview with the railroad.

Due to the influence of the Bill Gothard seminars, my church was getting more legalistic and more Old Testament. This was three years after my "Mormon Revelation' which had aborted my entering into the LDS church. During the following three years, I had gotten into the Book of Hebrews and Galatians which emphasized the Grace of the gospel and the new covenant. This was already causing a split between me and the church.

In 1978, I was convinced to try tithing, as I wanted the railroad job. I was told that it would bring success. I was quoted the usual verse from Malachi.

The problem was I didn't have a string of solid jobs. and wasn't doing that well on Unemployment, so I was trying to give them a full 10% of that! Well, to make a long story short, my rent went up and I didn't have enough work to continue getting Unemployment!

Upset and angry, I finally quit the Fundie church as I decided that going back under the Old Testament law with tithing was counter to what I felt God was teaching me about grace.

Both the LDS and Fundie churches have a problem with giving up on the Old Testament Law and especially when it comes to the law of tithing. I think it's criminal to teach marginal people to tithe their limited income.

I absolutely refuse to even consider tithing to this day.

RB,
we have walked similar roads religion-wise.

You presented it much more articulately than I could have done. Tithing seems to me to be a scam, though I know others love the principle and seem to have been blessed by it, in a variety of church settings.

A lack of understanding of grace , certainly.

Thank you, welshgypsy.

It was your post about the church in Alaska that made me respond. You had it worse. You actually made it into the LDS's clutches, after having been reamed by the Xtian Fundies.

Welcome aboard RfM! More Ex-Fundies will help Ex-Mormons see that bad religion isn't just with the LDS. There's an Ex-Pentecostal recovery board I also lurk on and --yep-- there's outrage on there, too, about tithing!

TITHING SUCKS!

I don't have a job, but I was told that I should tithe off of birthday gifts and graduation gifts.

That web link is brilliant.
Malachi I never knew he was talking to the church, not the members.

Thanks for the heads-up.

I'm going to viral that back to them when I get my love E-bombs

My Ex was a devout tithe payer. PLUS, he decided that we were going to help support his younger brother on a mission. He announced this to me before our new baby and I even left the hospital. We needed special formula for her skin problems, but couldn't afford it. At age one she had one little dress that I paid 1.25 for. At age two, she had one dress, from athrift shop.

We ate a lot of TVP and other cheap food, and had hardly any furniture. The only reason I had decent church clothes was because I had a pre-conversion supply. My Ex's garments were, literally in shreds.

I could go on and on about the nightmare. This was in the early '70s.

When reflecting on my 'costs' of attending church I realized I was paying 20% of my 'income' to be a church member.

I had a mini van and four children; two of them teenagers.
The ward boundaries had been stretched to include my part of town. A nice old neighborhood with no crime and lots of retired single folks.

It cost 10% of my income for GAS to drive to and from church to attend all of our required meetings plus shuttle my two teenagers, a boy and a girl, to and from their required meetings.

Then I had 10% of my gross.

Tithing when practiced by the TSCC, is not an even stipend.

There’s a lot of rubbish talked about tithing so I’ll attempt to clear up the confusion. 1) NO Christian would tithe there isn’t a single example of Christian tithing to be found in the New Testament. The ‘widows mite’ example that is sometimes used to justify tithing comes from a lack of understanding or simply deception; that was a free will offering & had nothing whatsoever to do with tithing.
2) The poor were NEVER expected to tithe, it was only landowners who tithed & they tithed on the produce of the land, e.g. animals, crops etc. Fishermen did not tithe neither did wage earners wage earners.
3) Money was not acceptable as a tithe, it had to be produce of the land.
4) The tithe was 10% of any PROFIT, e.g. if a farmers flock of 100 sheep increased to 110 sheep over the period of a year he would give ONE SHEEP as a tithe. The LDS would expect 11 sheep, assuming of course you were allowed to leave 11 sheep with the Bishop.
5) The tithe is an old testament Law which makes nonsense of the LDS claim to be Christians. Christians don’t follow Levitical Law.

So there you have it, the LDS, along with some so-called Christian churches do not follow the teachings of scripture. They are merely using an ancient Law applicable only to Jewish landowners in an attempt to make themselves wealthy. Rather than taking care of the poor they actually rob them blind. That’s quite a contrast to the teachings of Christ.

I had a student about three or four years ago who was an older woman who, after many years of abusing drugs and alcohol, was sober and trying to get her life on track. As part of that effort, she had recently rejoined the LDS faith she'd been raised in.

Anyway, she was extremely low-income, attending school full-time on federal student aid and working part-time in a local halfway house for recovering substance a users. She also lived in the home rent-free as part of her compensation. In addition, she received some assistance from her LDS ward.

I forget how it came up, but she told me at one point that she had to tithe! I was stunned. I asked her, "Why don't they just give you 10% less aid?" I don't recall her response. I've always regretted that I didn't ask her whether she was tithing on the student aid as well. I am sure that must be illegal. At the very least, it would extremely unethical (though I would have blamed her bishop, not the student).

The regressive nature of a flat percentage temple entry fee is evil. To make matters even more evil is that LDS inc, after forcing coercing compliance on a regressive fee, refuses to provide assistance to those who have been harmed by the regressive fee.

PS My post has no political overtones, I swear.

I have a couple TBM relatives who have filed for bankruptcy. To help them keep their expenditures in order, they have lists stuck to the refrigerator door. In both cases, you can guess what the #1 expenditure is.

You'd think/hope that God's one and only true church would be helping instead of consuming.

Tithing only applies to people who own assets that appreciate in value or that generate income aka "the increase".

Regular wages doesn't count. You are exchanging labor for money, a fair trade, there is no "increase".

My cousin and his wife were poor students at BYU and they choose to take a small loan so that they can pay tithing. I admit when money was tight for me I skipped tithing, the thought of taking a loan so I can pay tithing never crossed my mind. On better months I would try to pay a little more tithing to pay back lol.

I thought about taking out a loan to pay all of my back-tithing. Thank goodness I never followed that track. I didn't have any collateral to be able to take out a loan anyway.

After I had my great 'maybe the church is lying' moment and after reading some stuff on church finances I stopped paying tithing. I stopped mainly because I was really troubled about the church finances, but I was not ready to say the church is NOT what it claims to be.

In a conversation with the bishop around that time I just told him I was behind because of financial set backs. This was true, but those had never in the past stopped me paying. His suggestion was to sell my house and with the profits of the sale to bring my tithing up to date and be able to renew my TR. I asked him, so where would I live? Moving to an apartment would be not much different than what my house payments were, and then what? He said that if it were him, he'd rather have a TR than a house. Just one more drop to the glass of doubts.