She investigated the Allred group and I think she might agree with me that polygamy is more about power.

Many males have fantasies about polygamy. Some probably fantasize rape and underage sex. Still, the reality is more about having power over women and having power over other men by monopolizing the biggest share of women.

Anagrammy pointed out that the women in the Allred group don't have equal opportunity sex. I think that's the case in most plyg situations and I'm not limiting this idea to Mormon religious or cultural situations. Certain wives get most or all of the action.

Someone didn't read Anagrammy's replies well and they said something rather strange about polygamy being about closeness and caring. Almost every human grouping involves caring but polygamy usually has less caring and closeness than a neighborhood church or an elementary classroom.

Remember the stories about Brigham Young meeting a young boy in the street and complimenting him, then finding out it was his son?

Remember the Kingston group leader who was told to recite the names of his children in a court case and could remember fewer than half of them?

The Allred group is by far the most ethical and loving plyg group I've seen. It certainly has the best reputation among the larger groups. My brother, nieces, nephews and friends from my youth are in that one. But loving and caring? They're usually polite and nice but they're no more loving than my nevermo friends are and probably less so.

One of my brother's wives ran screaming down the street with her baby and a few clothes because the situation was so intolerable. She never went back.

I know my brother well and I know others in that group and power rules. Everything else pales by comparison. Sex in polygamy? The reality seldom lives up to the fantasy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2013 04:47PM by Cheryl.

topping

wow, what a crazy world people make for themselves (or are forced into)

My sister is in the UAB.

When I was a kid and when my brother married into it, they hadn't yet coined that Apostalic name.

My parents followed a different prophet but they took in some of the Marvin Allred's wives and kids for awhile when they were hiding out from authorities.

I was just curious.

I've tried to glean interesting info from my sister. What I've concluded was that my sister and her sister wives have closer relationships than any of them with my sister's husband.

My sister as the first wife probably is content because she get a lot of his time. She probably get more time than sexual attention. I picked up on this. It is very much like Chinese Polygamy.

I have to tell people at work that it isn't about the sex. I also have to tell Mormon friends. But it is a little about the sex for my brother-in-law I think. He gets his variety sexually and his companionship with my sister.

The sister wives are the ones that have it bad.

It's actually the AUB (Apostolic United Brethen). Most of my family is still in it. I think the majority of those in my generation that are plygs chose that for themselves. The AUB is by in large the most liberal of the plyg groups out there. You have extremists and you have moderates all mixed together.

Yes, there's variety in the AUBs. Some of the women dress in pioneer garb with old-style long hair and others dress like modern mainstream mormons and might have short hair styles.

What DO the modern Plyg "sects" do with all those extra males???

Thanks for the insight Cheryl. I know a lot of TBMs who sooo look down on polygamy. And in their minds, the polygamy of today is nothing like what was practiced by Brigham Young and his contemporaries. I even have one acquaintance who always talks about the early church polygamy as something noble and of a higher order that we just weren't worth of or ready for. I have to remember next time to point out Brigham not knowing his own child. Says it all. And I understand most of his wives lived in poverty.

I am trying to understand or fathom what it might be like for a man, and other than having sex with whomever you want I can't think of an upside.
1) You would always be hurting someone's feelings, either a wife's or a child's. That would create a depressing environment
2) You would constantly be talked about behind your back and you wouldn't know who to trust
3) therefore, it would be difficult to foster close relationships.

You would have a hot meal and sex all you wanted but after that you would just be broke and alone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2013 04:08PM by snuckafoodberry.

Well, I would imagine that not all plyg groups are like this, but for the most part, these are coerced marriages, right? So if you've been given a few 14-year-olds as wives, doesn't that really make you a rapist?

Do you think it would be fun for those guys to be trying to bang a young teenager who is scared to death, maybe crying, and most certainly not into it at all? Or are these guys so narcissistic and lack empathy that they don't even realize how awful they are making a new wife feel?

I gotta think that men who participate in this -- coerced marriages -- HAVE to be psychopaths.

I can only guess and hypothesize by trying to imagine what it would be like. I can't imagine a nice and loving man would want to hurt and scare a young girl or take away her innocent youth. I would think some of those men are raised up in it and are nice men who think they have to be in a plural marriage arrangement and maybe the girls are groomed to know what they can expect and what is expected of them. It sounds so terrible to me but maybe not to them. Don't know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2013 04:30PM by snuckafoodberry.

a few years ago. This was a big scandal because the Allreds were considered to be above doing such despicable things. The policy became "No sex with any girl under the age of 18. The penalty would be excommunication and being banned from the group."

Is this being enforced? I don't know.

Would a better penalty be turning in the offender to the police? Still, the Allreds have a better reputation than any other large polygamy group

In Irene Spencer's book, she wrote about how vile, selfish, violent, cruel, and rude her husband was for most of the book. He was also, I believe, at least 20 or 30 years her senior. But she wrote about their sex on their honeymoon being absolutely fantastic. I was happy for her that at least not everything was awful, but it was still a bit of a shocker to read in the context of everything else.

I think the girls in these marriages are generally pushed, but remember they are not just pushed by the men they are marrying...it is expected of them by their siblings, parents, and their spiritual leaders, whom they believe have a direct line to God. The husband is usually not involved in the coercion aspect. By the time they have their wedding night, the girls/women are thoroughly brainwashed into believing it's God's will. So is it rape? I would say yes, but I would also say it's the entire community's fault, not just that one man's.

Cheryl and Elder Berry I really appreciate it when you share these stories about your family. They are so insightful and really interesting.

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/photos-utah/Brigham%20Young%20wives.jpg

Hard to think it was only for the sex.

More ammo to help you out. Look at how polygamous wives dress. There is nothing sexual in any of it. In fact they go out of their way to hide their sexuality. Same in Muslim countries where both having multiple wives, and making them cover up predates Islam. It's about men having power over women and their sexuality, for themselves, not about enjoying the fruits of lots of women. If it were just about sex, and not oppression, those women would be encouraged to dress up like they were in a Lady Gaga video.

Here's the old pioneer joke that came down from my great grandmother:

Brigham Young was walking down the street one day and saw a young man playing by the side of the road.

"You're a handsome young man. Who is your father?" Brigham asked.

"Why, Brigham Yong is my father, sir." The boy answered.

I think the polygamy issue might be what led me out.....

With all the crazy Warren Jeffs scandals, I got really curious and interested in learning more about the issue. I think I read about all the books out there on the subject. Well the section of the library with this info just happened to be next to what might be considered anti mormon selections. Martha Becks book caught my eye. My favorite reading is usually personal stories and biographies. Id read a short anti book once before, but it only confirmed my mormon bias. Of course, that people only leave because they are weak, never really had a testimony, or were offended. Well Marthas story was interesting, but the part that shook me was the bit she dropped in about The Book of Abraham. That started my research, and here we are.

Anyway... yes I love your comments. How did you leave polygamy Cheryl? You're from the Allred clan? They are the more mainstream looking clan right?

There's a really good book called "First Contact" about what happened when the highland mountain tribes of New Guinea first saw modern people from the outside world. The moka ritual ceremony was the chief axis of their culture. Men would show their power and prestige by dispensing gifts. The more pigs, gardens and wives a man had the more he could afford to give away. Status was all important. Accumulation of wealth was just a means to an end.

People tire of anything after a while including sex so there would have to be something else going on. Mormonism began as a religious con that gave power and prestige to the low born with promises of wealth, power, lofty sounding but meaningless titles -- and a harem.

Warren Jeffs clan, the Lafferty family, etc., must be laid squarely at the feet of Joseph Smith. I think it is quite reasonable to assume that groups like this would not exist were it not for Joe Smith. TBMs avoid this conclusion at all costs. But, there it is. Had he not introduced polygamy to a Victorian society, it's my opinion polygamy on the scale it exists in the U.S., Mexico and Canada would not be.

Yes, there would still be weird cults like the Waco, Texas group from time to time. But, the large scale operations like the Warren Jeffs clans in Arizona and Texas, the Kingston clan, the Allreds, the Barlows, the Laffertys, etc. would not have happened were it not for the power hungry and sociopathic founding prophet of the LDS mainstream religion.

It was hard for me to square Joe Smith's introduction of polygamy with my own belief that polygamy is an awful situation for women and a truly tragic situation for children -- both boys and girls. Polygamy is one of the chief reasons I resigned, the others being Prop 8 and the bishops' interviews of young girls about their sexuality (which seems to me directly related to the whole polygamy/control of women's sexuality thing).

was that polygamy is about lack of intimacy. Zina (can't remember her whole name right now--I believe Elder Berry is related). Anyway, Zina made some statement about intimacy that stated it clearly it isn't about intimacy. I'm not going to go look it up because I'm being lazy this morning!

As for being alone--how many men wish they didn't have to deal with their wife? Let alone wives? Especially mormons. I wonder how much intimacy there has been in Monson's marriage--let alone Packer's.

With the promise that LDS-ish men will basically become kings & gods, having a little "kingdom" of their own with lots of "subjects" is what I think drives the practice.

One of my relatives (divorced and remarried, but I don't know if first marriage sealing was canceled) sits like a king while his wife and kids are swirling around him; I've never seen him lift a finger to help in the kitchen and he falls asleep in a chair while other people are taking care of business...

Chicken n. Backpacks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With the promise that LDS-ish men will basically
> become kings & gods, having a little "kingdom" of
> their own with lots of "subjects" is what I think
> drives the practice.
>
> One of my relatives (divorced and remarried, but
> I don't know if first marriage sealing was
> canceled) sits like a king while his wife and kids
> are swirling around him; I've never seen him lift
> a finger to help in the kitchen and he falls
> asleep in a chair while other people are taking
> care of business...

Mormons worship a God that rewards men for their obedience with the bodies and souls of women and children. Not a God I want anything to do with.

So Cheryl and Elder Berry have family that became part of polygamy, specifically the AUB? That's your connection to being an expert about it? If you are going to claim that you know "the actual name," then yes, you should know "the exact name." Having actually grown up in the AUB I have to call BS. Yes, there are those that have long hair (most of my sisters), but they don't dress in "pioneer garb." Like I said, there are extremists, but they are more the exception. Like the lady that makes the secret underwear who goes so far as to make them for her unendowed little kids. Glad to see you both have a nice fan base that will believe anything you say, but that doesn't mean it's true. When Joe Smith started it, it was most definitely about SEX. And underage rape, pedophile type sex. When confronted about it he had make up reasons for it. He had women all across the board. Young, old, married, etc. Nothing seemed off limits. It evolved from there to his club members going so far as giving baby blessings promising infants that they would become polygamous wives and then marrying them themselves when they got "old enough" in order to self-fulfill their prophecy. Sounds almost like imprinting from twilight. I know many women that have left the AUB and not ever have I heard about them having to sneak off in the middle of the night or running down the road like their being persued. Your brother sounds like he'd be happier in the FLDS group where they endorse his type of behavior. I know a polygamous wife that I was good friends with that told her sisterwife's kids she was done, waited for the husband to get home and told him. That was all it took to end it. Polygamous women are going to defend the belief/lifestyle just like muslim women are going to defend their belief/lifestyle and even depressed mormon women are going to defend their belief/lifestyle. They are all raised to obey/submit to the Penisholder. Mormons/polygamous women are taught that they will become heirs WITH their husbands. The young men are raised to believe that this is their path to become a god and the women are raised to believe that this is the way they become saved and goddesses themselves. It really is f***ed up, but it is what it is. Welcome to religion...

Dear ex-AUB

It may be easy to leave a cult, but it isn't that easy to leave the thinking pattern. You are exhibiting hostility toward someone who also grew up in polygamy but had a different experience.

No one can live in against-ness (as Iyanla likes to say). When you leave a cult, which is against mainstream religion, it's easy to keep the habit of against-ness and flip it to being against the cult instead.

Cheryl who is more your sister than anyone here and doesn't need defending. SHe doesn't demand respect or have any power other than what she has earned over the years through her short, wise, pointed posts. She has a different world view than we have learned to respect and because of her roots and POV, she's taught us a lot.

You have a lot to offer in terms of your experience of leaving the cult and your own path. We'd love to hear it but this forum does not allow personal attacks, so you'll have to drop that.

I'd like to know how you came to leave polygamy and if you were able to take your children with you. How did that work?


Anagrammy

Polygamy has been practiced forever. It is now recognized in dozen of countries. Please respect what other adults do. Not all poligamists are allred/inbread,jeffs pedophiles. If its between adults, it is no one business. We should know better by now, as exmormons, than to tell other people how to live their lives. Yes, there are horrible polygamists ans there are horrible monogamist. One of my best friends is arab has millions of dollars, his wives all chose him and they could not be happier. He is not abusive, they live mostly in Europe. I would never tell him his livestyle is wrong based on the inbreds in southern utah.

+1

Goes for polyandrists too.

I for one won't respect it. It doesn't seem right to raise children up in it. Our society in the U.S. does not, as a whole, accept that lifestyle as respectable. One man to several women is sexist. If they enjoy it I don't care. Still don't accept it as a good life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2013 04:38PM by snuckafoodberry.

I believe that power and religious indoctrination are primary motivators in a polygamist society, but I cannot dismiss sex from the equation entirely.

After all, what are our primary motivators in life besides our need for air, food, water and sex?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2013 04:33PM by Senoritalamanita.