Reading the other thread on whether or not Mormons are arrogant made me think of the main reasons people simply cannot look at anything contradicting their religion:

Pride: If Mormonism isn't true, then I'm not better than everyone else, I'm not special, I don't have all the answers, I'm not chosen. The world MUST believe in my special status with God. How dare they contradict it?

Fear: I can't lose my family forever, I don't want to go to hell, I don't want to become a drug addicted alcoholic, I won't have a purpose in life, my spouse will leave me. I don't want porn to get me. I don't want disasters to befall.

Belief: These teachings as I understand them truly make sense and I want to live my life by them.

Personally, I see few blinded TBMs in the last category because most people secure in their beliefs can listen to other points of view without feeling threatened. I think there are a number of good, sincere Mormons that fall into this last category, but they aren't the people who go bat-crap crazy when someone else disagrees with them. Speaking just of the people who flip out when faced with an opposing viewpoint, which of the above fits them best? What is the chip on their shoulder? Or is it something else I haven't thought of?

People who flip out won't even consider the facts because they think have too much to lose. I also think it has to do with personality type and the way they try to control the status quo.

I think the 'flip out' people tend to be 1) pushy and controlling, OR 2) hyper emotional and manipulative (like a "how could you do this to your mother" type).

Either way, these people can't allow any difference of opinion. It rocks their world.

I think it's pure fear that makes it so people can't even consider that their belief system might not be God's ultimate truth.

I think it is all of those plus seduction. I have a friend who keeps getting sucked into relationships by men who know exactly what to tell her to get her all happy and in love. When they get what they want and leave her she wonders why she cannot meet the right kind of men. What do they tell her? They tell her how beautiful, smart, nice, and talented she is. Then they throw in how underappreciated, misunderstood, and used she is by others. She feels, "at last I am understood" and falls hopelessly in love. If you try to tell her the man she loves is insincere, you become an enemy who is jealous and envy her long awaited happiness.

I find Mormons who can't see the writing in front of their face have become seduced in the same manner. They are god's special witnesses. They know that their redeemer lives to save and protect them. They know the prophet is there to keep them on the straight and narrow path so they don't have to worry about reasoning life out for themselves. Mormonism is the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow which makes them feel they have no worries as long as they obey. It doesn't matter if they are struggling financially or in poor health. God knows and sees them and it will all work out in the eternities.

Now how can real life and logic trump all those good feelings? How can one leave the warm and comforting reminders from weekly church meetings, conferences, activities and publications telling the member that he is loved, welcomed, true, superior in god's eyes, possessing of truth from the only source of truth, etc. It is very seductive to know that one has landed in the only place where all questions can be answered and all will be made known in the eternities. If you can just keep your eyes closed tight and repeat the seductive cliches from those who are god's true representatives on earth, it is a glorious state of delusion that is hard to want to leave. And if anyone tells you this is not all true, he is of the devil. Only the devil would want to take away your bliss. If you are feeling uncertain about all the empty promises Mormonism pours out upon you, just remember that it is Satan and his minions trying to destroy your eternal salvation.

If LDS, Inc. can get you to swallow all the above, you have been seduced by a master.

Excellent point!

Perhaps they stay because the reality of building an entirely new life outside of everything they've been taught their whole lives is terrifying. At least the lie is comfortable. It's safer to live in the lie than to fearlessly seek truth.
It's like moving to another country. Some people just don't have the guts to start anew.

Most TBMs I know fall into #3. They just don't know the truth of things because no one has ever told it to them, and they're too afraid of all of the implications in their lives if it isn't true.

What kept me going was internalizing and "pondering" and eventually brainwashing myself of all of the things they taught us. I did this to the point that I was apalled by all of the "evils" surrounding us everywhere: pop culture, media, music, fashions, trends. I was certain that the answer to all of the world's problems could be solved if everyone would just get their act together and become TBM. Even as I write this a part of me still wishes that life could be that simple. But it's not. So now I am learning to function in the real world.

In my experience (which mostly just consists of dealing with my parents) its mostly fear, but not the fear you're talking about. They're terrified of being wrong, they can't imagine a world without the safety of the Morg always being the one and only true path for them to follow. They're aghast at the idea of not having all the answers to all of life's questions. Doubt and unanswered questions terrify them. They'd rather stick with believing answers that are probably wrong, then admit that there may be no answers.

Fear. 100%. The social/family pressures, spouse leaving, etc., are all part of that fear. But fear also accounts for the other two:

That's why they have to make themselves believe it. Because if not, they have to figure out their own answers. And not only do they not want to do that, but they can't, because they don't have critical thinking skills.

And all their pride is based on being part of the church. So they wouldn't have any left if they had to leave because they no longer believed. So they make themselves believe. And on and on...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2013 02:20PM by woodsmoke.

It's all three in combination, and another important one aswell.

4. Guilt. If mormonism is true then God will forgive me as long as I just keeps on trying, if I start to doubt there is no forgiveness for me, then I'll just be a bad person.

A good TBM is bound to mormonism by all four impulses.

+1

Trying to tie believing in something that is totally irrational to just fear or pride is an oversimplification. For most Mormons we are taught in Nursery from the age of 3 that the church is true and any information that does not square with that comes from the devil and is to be avoided. Fear of losing ones loved ones is real, but the underlying response that keeps people in the church is a conditioned response from years and years of conditioning as children.

One thing I have come to realization about is that everyone always pegs the blame for the Church on the Priesthood leadership. But it is much more insidious than that. Women have a huge role, shaping the minds of their young children to obey and believe, and as girlfriends, demanding that young men will serve missions or they will have nothing to do with them, as spouses demanding that their husbands are faithful. It's too easy to place blame in one emotion or one set of players, but it is complex and overpowering system of thought control that has evolved since the 1830s.

"Bat-crap crazy" chuckling deep inside...

What was the question?

I can only speak for myself, but in my case it was fear. What if I leave and it turns out to be true?

I left after a lot of studying, once I realized 100% that it was all bunk. That's when the fear left.

Depends on to whom they are talking, but you have three main ingredients in Mormon stew.

It's their twisted logic that tells them that without the church they will lose their identity or sense of purpose. They will be blank, useless, nil, nada.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2013 04:53PM by Senoritalamanita.

Just like there are as many reasons to quit Mormonism as there are people who quit, there are as many reasons to stay in as there are people who elect to stay.

I think that many people are just plain sponges for bullshit. They can hear and hear and hear bullshit, and the sponge never quite reaches saturation.

Then there are Carl Sagan's words, one of the foremost reasons for which many people stay:

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

Many just cannot admit to themselves that they have been bamboozled, so they stay.

As with religious people anywhere, many are mentally ill but still operating within the rather loose boundaries of accepted normalcy. That would explain DW's sweet friend in Relief Society who recently gave a lesson about how we learn that in the Last Days there will be a zombie apocalypse and other bad things. You and others like laughing DW think, WTF? You know that the woman is showing some mentally fragile part of herself, but you don't want to point out that, "Lady, yer just plain nuts!" But there is a lot of nuttiness involved in cult belief acceptance. You have to still be thinking in magical terms to accept Kolob and stuff like that.

Anyway, too many reasons to worry about it. You just have to say to yourself and others, "Sauve qui peut!" and jump off the ship, not knowing particularly where or how you're going to land.

Excellent post, Cludgie!

P.S. -- I had to look up "Sauve qui peut."

... every man for himself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2013 05:20PM by Senoritalamanita.

Thanks. You are too kind. Wise counsel: If you throw in non-English phrases, people think you are smart. Oui, ç'est vrai. (But you must avoid saying stupid things like, "l'autopista es verde" or something like that.)

Fear. The LDS church does a lot of fear induction, fear of failure, fear of being imperfect, fear of being perceived as less valiant, fear of God (maybe) and Satan (maybe), fear of not keeping up with the other Mormons, fear of not going to Church or going often enough to the Temple, fear of appearing unrighteous in any way, fear of not living up to the standards, and most of all, fear of authority. General Conference is an exercise in theatrics, a horror show when the lights go down and all that's left is darkness and the little dome of light over the Speaker, thundering forth Truth and Spiritual Nourishment that one ignores at one's Infinitie Peril.

Fear.

Why does one keep the Sheeple in a perpetual state of theological and historical innocence? In short, why treat adults like spiritual children who can only ever be fed milk?

BECAUSE IT'S EASIER TO SCARE THE SH!T OUT OF LITTLE KIDS.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2013 05:31PM by derrida.

Fear, look at the things you stand to lose by leaving compared to the things you stand to gain. I was afraid of losing my family, but I hated putting on a show every Sunday, pretending to be something I wasn't and lying about things that I knew weren't true.

Most of them enjoy the social perks. They all seem to have plenty of money, in no small part because of nepotism and Mormon cronyism. For the most part, they enjoy their high social positions in their respective wards and seem to genuinely love their spouses and enjoy their children. They are in, what I would call, the privileged elite of Moism. The lifestyle actually fits their personalities and TSCC seems to make them happy.

Because it adds to their personal happiness, it must therefore be true. They don't even bother studying further.

I would be almost content to just let them have their beliefs completely unchallenged if it weren't for the few family members who don't fit the mold and who are therefore silently suffering (I have a few gay cousins and some female cousins who woukd really rather not be stay at home mothers). Also, the insular nature of the community causes my otherwise good natured family to callously disregard and minimize the suffering of people in the outgroup.

I think its a combo of pride and fear, but when it comes to the fear part, I think a lot of people are worried about being stuck in a limbo of faith.

When I was Mormon there was an initial fear of dipping too far into anti-Mormon literature. It wasn't so much the fear of realizing the church wasn't true. It was the fear of having the knowledge of troubling aspects of Mormon history but still not being sure if the church was true or not. What I did read was troubling enough and I didn't like that feeling. I still believed in Mormonism but I felt uncomfortable about the facts. At the time I didn't realize that there was SO MUCH damning information out there that I could be fully convinced 100% that the church was baloney.

Its kind of like someone being accused in a court of law for murder or rape but not having enough evidence, one way or the other, to come to a confident decision that this person is guilty or innocent. Its sort of like Michael Jackson. I WANT to like him and I don't want to believe that he is a child molester. Sometimes I'm on the fence about whether he REALLY is guilty or was just being taken advantage of by some people who just wanted his money. You don't know if you should like or hate him. I'd almost rather not know ANYTHING about him being charge of molestation. If the evidence was irrefutable, like having multiple video recordings or something, then I could confidently say Jackson is guilty and an evil man.

In Mormonism, I thought the evidence would trouble me, but not be enough to convince me Mormonism was false. So, in that case, I would rather not even hear ANY of the facts, just so I could not be forever troubled by it. If I knew back then what I know now, I would have dived head first into the anti-Mormon stuff. But I didn't know THEN, that I could be FULLY convinced the church was DEFINITELY not true.

Actually, I think the number one reason is BRAINWASHING. But I think fear or pride, but mostly fear falls under the brainwashing category. If someone is so afraid to look at information critical of their church, then to me that means they have been brainwashed.

They brainwash you to fear anything critical of the church.

The level of pride, I think, depends on the individual. It is in the nature of MOST human beings to not change their opinions on something they have been raised to believe. I mean, how often do people switch religions or political affiliation? Very rarely. If someone was raised Democrat, or Republican, they'll defend its principles to the end they rarely switch. Same with religion. How often do people switch from Islam to Christian, or Christian to Islam, or Christian to Atheist? Very rarely. Those of us posting here are in the very tiny minority of people who have actually changed religions. Most people simply cannot see outside of their world view. They aren't willing to concede theat their viewpoint may not be 100% correct. They're on a team and team loyalty is most important. Everyone else is the enemy. Its a territorial, tribal mentality.

Good point. And LDS Inc. claims that apostates, rather than they, have closed minds.

I would say fear.

Yes, it is a child-like fear. Ignorance is essential to keep the fear going. Once we have the courage--or in my case it was accidental--to find out who really is behind the veil, we can start growing up, and forming our own destiny.

I left because I could not bear to stay, and have my children abused by the Mormon leaders. I could no longer tolerate the lies, and the hatred. This is not God's work. This aversion to the cult became stronger than fear. Even though I know for sure that the Mormons and their gods have no power over me, still there is that fear of their basic cruelty, and their wish for me and my children to fail in life. What I'm saying, is that the fear of God is not real, but fear of Mormon bullying is very real.

Absolute fear, pure and simple. My beloved stopped going to church over 2 years ago, but still wears her temple garments day and night. The psychological indoctrination runs deep and wide. The Temple oaths and covenants to the Mormon Cult is such a graphic reminder and a clear warning to all who bowed their heads in forced submission to the all demanding Mormon God.

Yes it is!

Pride, fear, belief, and complacency.

For people born into the church in areas where the church is a constant presence, I think there are a good many members who go to church every week, hold a calling and a temple recommend who do so out of habit. Are they TBM? I think vast numbers of Mormons never really think about it. They still recite the same testimony they did as children.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2013 10:24PM by releve.

I held on for years, but wasn't pride, fear, or belief. For me, it was hope. I would like nothing more than to be with my family for eternity. It was my hope in this possibility that kept me hanging on.