I have mentioned this before - I am not a mormon or even an ex-mormon. I was borned an raised as an atheist, but I have an intrest in studying diffrent kinds of religions. I have recently had Mormon missionaries at my house and they gave me a free copy of "The Book of Mormon" I haven't read it all but I have read some part. Some days ago I read the book of Ether, and there was one part that really caught my attention.

In Ether 6:73 this is mentioned.

"He saw that there had been slain by the sword already
nearly two millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in
his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty
men, and also their wives and their children."

Really... There was a battle with TWO MILLION casualties? Lets put this in a perspective.

The biggest battle in the history of the world is the battle of Stalingrad, which occured during World War II. In the battle of Stalingrad Axis forces (Germans, Italians and Romanians) met Soviet forces in the city of Stalingrad. The Axis had 1,100,000 soldiers and Soviet Union had 2,500,000 soldiers. That's a total number of 3,500,000 soldiers. The battle lasted for five months and in the end there was approximately 2.000.000 casualties.

If this unknown battle mentioned in Ether is true that means it would tie with the battle of Stalingrad as the biggest battle in the world.

And if I understood this correctly this battle happend sometime between 400 - 500 A.D, which is 1500 years before WWII.

This actually happend during the same time as the first Mongolian invasion of Europe. The Mongolians, led by Attila the Hun, started their campaign against the Romans in ~ 450 A.D.

In 451 the Romans decided to do a counterattack agains Attila the Hun. So the Romans led by the general Flavius Aetius allied with the Visigoths, a Germanic People, led by king Theodoric and pursued Attila into the French city Châlons.

Historians are uncertian about how many soldier there were during the battle of Châlons, but it's estimated to be between 100.000 – 150.000 from both sides combined. So how do I know the names of the generals during this battle? Well it's quite easy actually since there are hundreds of letters, books and paintings telling about Attila the Hun, king Theodoric and general Flavius Aetius. There a also a lot of archeolgical findings, such as swords, arrowheads, armours horseshoes, at the plains of Catalaunian where the city of Châlons is.

In the battle described in Ether there were two million casualties, but not every soldier dies in battle. So if there were two million casualties the total army size would probably be 2,500,000 – 3,000,000 soldiers. That is 15-30 times bigger than the battle of Châlons, which happend during the same period of time.

I now you are ex-mormons so you don't have to defend this idiocy, but how could someone possibly believe this? What is the church official stance on this? Why aren't there any archelogical findings from this battle? Archologists have found a lot of evidence from the battle of Châlons, which happend during the same time and that battle had 150.000 soldiers not approximately 2,500,000.


The mormon missionaries will come back to my house in about a week. I am going to ask them the same questions. This is just so confusing.

The only semi plausible explanation is that there is plenty of archaeological evidence that hasn't been found yet. Until the entire American continent has been dug up including the parts that are now underwater you can't prove that the battle didn't take place.

The rationale I hear the most is that the numbers are not literal, i.e. simply indicate "many" people have died. This apparently happens frequently in the bible and is likely justification for the judging that goes on in the membership reports.

The last post should say fudging, not judging.

There are numbers frequently used in the bible that aren't literal. For example, Hebrew scholars note that the number 40 could be replaced in most cases with "many"...I believe there is some significance to the number 7 as well. I'm confident that there is no non-literal significance to the number 2M. Besides, if the book was translated by the gift and power of god, "many" or "innumerable" would have probably been used if that was the case.

Ether pulled the numbers out of the ether...

There has been no evidence found bc of course none exists. As a TBM the best I could think of was that the evidence simply hadn't been found yet. Which as you point out is quite absurd. We supposedly know the time and site of the battle. If it had happened it would have been found by now. Just a correction also, the last battle in Ether would have taken place sometime closer to 600 bc



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2013 09:35AM by albertasaurus.

That would put them sometime before 600 BCE.

But your point is still correct. A number of BoM battles would fall into the "Top 5 biggest battles ever on planet Earth" category. Not only is not having evidence of the battles themselves completely unbelievable, but there is no way populations could have grown fast enough to generate societies big enough to have that many soldiers.

The whole thing is just silly. And wait until you read about the Jaredite barge/submarines. Imagine a boat full of livestock, and associated food and excrement, flipped over every now and again. A 1,500 pound cow dropping from the ceiling would be quite exciting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2013 09:37AM by Brother Of Jerry.

...or the 40 mile wide hedge of snakes that block the starving Jaredites from access to their herds. Now that I think about it, they should have just eaten the snakes. :-)

"And if I understood this correctly this battle happend sometime between 400 - 500 A.D, which is 1500 years before WWII."

The missionaries will probably correct you on the date. The final (fictional) battle of the Jaradites was sometime around 580 B.C.

Omni 21-22.
Remember that the sole survivor Coriantumr lived with the inhabitants of Zarahemla for "nine moons".

"Omni 21-22. Remember that the sole survivor Coriantumr lived with the inhabitants of Zarahemla for "nine moons"."

Be careful with the date of about 130 BCE. The date in the chapter heading of Omni 21-22 is when it was told to Mosiah, not when it occurred.

This BYU link gives a fairly good explanation:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=28

"Ether 11:20—21 implies that the later immigrant peoples (of Zarahemla and of Lehi) had not yet reached the promised land in America at a time just before Ether, the last Jaredite prophet, was born. On the other hand Coriantumr, the final Jaredite king, "was discovered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons." (Omni 20—21) We know that the arrival of the people of Zarahemla was some time after 556 B.C., the date of the fall of Jerusalem from which that group of people fled. The encounter with Coriantumr could have taken place at any time in the first decades, or somewhat later, of the Mulekites' inhabiting the new land. (However, if Ether 11:20—21 indeed precedes the arrival of the Israelite group Coriantumr could not have lived as late as, say, 400 B.C.) That it was early in their history may be inferred from the fact that more extensive mention of contacts would have been likely had the people of Zarahemla and the Jaredites lived in adjacent lands for any length of time. Also the fact that the Mulek group "discovered" Coriantumr, rather that the reverse, and that he died after only nine lunar months with them, suggests that the fallen king had been incapacitated by his wounds (see Ether 15:32) and so did not live long after the final Jaredite battle."

"A reasonable conclusion is that the most likely date for the end of the Jaredite people falls not earlier, and not much later, than 580 B.C."

My suggestion would be to ask the missionaries if the Church knows where the final battle in Ether took place. My guess is that they will confidently identify the location as the Hill Cumorah in New York. This is the same location where the genocide of the Nephites took place around 400 AD, and where Joseph Smith claims to have uncovered the gold plates.

Once they have identified the location, you should be free to point out the absurdity.

As I read this, it was 2 million on one side. Population estimates I have seen put the world population at approx 100 million at that time. So 2 to 4% of the world's population died and nobody knows about it. Right.

This is one thing that solidified my exit. It is ridiculous.

It was large numbers like these that really made me start questioning the authenticity of the BoM. Since I'm a geek and a programmer, I even wrote a program to try simulating what the birth rate would need to be to produce the populations of the sizes mentioned in the book. Needless to say, it didn't help my faith.

2,000,000 men, on one side. Plus wives. Plus children. Lets say conservatively 6,000,000 casualties per side. So 12,000,000 people.

And in the end, the sides after hacking 12,000,000 people to pieces are left with only Coriantumr and Shiz standing, whereapon Coriantumr lops of Shiz's head, who then gets up and lets out a dying gasp.

And not a trace of archaeological evidence... all vanished into thin Ether.

The 2 million mentioned in Ether 15:2 appears to be the total killed thus far on both sides combined (men, women, and children). This was a civil war, so both sides were all actually Coriantumr's people. After this count is provided, Ether moves on to the final battle of extermination, where only Coriantumr surives (and Ether hiding in a cave). We do not know the total that was gathered together for the final battle, just that it took 4 years to gather them.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2013 11:17AM by facsimile3.

You are using casualties and killed interchangeably. They do not mean the same thing. Casualties include killed, but also include wounded. There were NOT 2,000,000 killed in the battle of Stalingrad, more like one million killed and MIA, The other million casualties were just wounded.

So your point is actually even stronger than you make it.

Yeah, you are right. English is my secondary language. I thought casualties and deaths were the same thing. And if this happened in ~ 600 BC instead of 500 A.D it's even more absurd. Most civilizations at this time were at the late bronze age / early iron age period.

It took five months to reach the 2,000,000 causlities during the battle of Stalingrad, and they had automatic weapons, aircraft and tanks. Reaching the same number with bronze swords would take years.

I've been speaking English as my native language for almost 50 years and I am still confused by the use of the word "casualties." I often hear the word used in a context obviously referring to deaths, not including injuries or missing.

According to Wikipedia:

"A casualty in military usage is a person in military service, not necessarily a combatant, who becomes unavailable for duty due to death, injury, illness, capture, desertion, etc.; or a civilian casualty.

"In civilian usage the word 'casualty' is properly used for a person who is killed, wounded or injured by some event, and is usually used to describe multiple deaths and injuries due to violent incidents or disasters. 'Casualties' is sometimes loosely used or (mis)understood to mean fatalities, but non-fatal injuries are also casualties."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualty_%28person%29

The best kind of proof is the one that mormons use exclusively:

the one that cannot be found. They have proof because they place the burden of proof on you. They have their feelings, which is all a good person needs to find fact and truth.

The archeological evidence would be VAST... 6-12 million people, here for centuries, meaning 50-300 million? and not one hair, not one sword, not one word, one golden letter, not one curelom dumpling, not one wheel, not one drawing of wagon, not a speck of wheat, no 0.00000000001 DNA evidence, not one fleck of steel, not one name scribbled anywhere of these leaders or their people, not one of these stories or battles being retold my the native americans...nothing...so it must be true.

"not one curelom dumping," aah hahahaha! So funny.

I was always taught that the truth of all things would come forth in the resurrection just after the earth is baptized by fire. At that time the Saints will be raised up to meet God the Father and the Lamb. The earth will receive is paradisiacal glory and become like unto the Urim and Thummin - transparent glass.

All that nonsense aside I remember talking to a missionary at the Hill Cumorah Visitors Center years ago about the fantastic battles that were fought on that very ground. The kindly old gentleman and his wife had extended their mission several times because they just love the area. He said the church has done digs in the area and so far zippo trippo evidence of any type of major human conflict.

Another interesting tidbit is my Mother told me that one of our relatives served a mission to the Hill Cumorah in the early 1900's. The mission was foresting the hill - yes its true. In its primitive state it is a naturally formed drumlin void of major vegetation. The missionaries planted thousands of trees in order to make JS story more credible. After all, that huge stone just couldn't be out in the open could it? It had to be hidden away and the best way to hide it? Trees. Lots of them. Now if we could only find the vast caverns in the hill where all the angels are guarding the vast quantities of ancient writings, the sword of Laban and the Urim and Thummim. Its all there - we just haven't found it yet.

I think there are much bigger issues.

I always read it that these 2 million deaths occurred over a period of many years, not just in a single battle. I also read it as this included murders of women and children and such as cities getting razed and pillaged - an all out insane civil war over a number of years.

Even if it was a civil war and not a battle the numbers are still absurd.

American civil war lasted four years ~ 620.000 deaths
Spanish civil war lasted three years ~ 500.00 deaths

BoM is filled with this kind of absurdity. A few years after Lehi and his family reach the promised land they are divided into two rivaling "kingdoms". Nephi is elected King! Are you kidding me? King over what? 20 people tops, mostly kids. Any king's personal entourage in history is bigger than that, but for this "king" it's his entire kingdom. Ridiculous!

Nephi builds, all by himself, in the span of 22 years, a temple as grand as that of Salomo's. Really? There are no roads, no mines, no lumberjacks, no farms, no nothing and he builds a huge temple capable of fulfilling the need of thousands. Why? Is he a moron?

Then we must assume that all women over 15 are giving birth to twins or triplets every frickin' year as 40 years after the book started the two "kingdoms" have their first real war with 'big' casualties. It must have been really epic, because ofcourse we all know that humans breed as fast as mice.

On and on it goes, one ridiculous thing after another.

Maybe they could argue that there was a misplaced decimal point.

JS might have gotten the idea for these kinds of numbers from some of the Old Testament battles, which, in the King James, depict hundreds of thousands of participants. For the Kingdoms of Judah (Southern Kingdom) and Israel/Samaria (Northern Kingdom) to field such forces was very unlikely, given what we know of the economies and demographics of the period.

Even conservative and Evangelical scholars acknowledge that the chroniclers' records were off by a decimal or a digit. These are not evidence of transmission errors, but of translation disputes, as Hebrew letters may have different numerical values depending upon various factors.

"Do you believe the Book of Mormon?"
"Yes, insofar as it is correctly translated. I prefer my own translation, as I've studied Reformed Egyptian. You're not using the Joseph Smith 1840 version, are you? It's riddled with error, you know!"

There's also the fact that, after years of war and millions of deaths, the odds of it coming down to a one-on-one battle are staggering. No two forces in the history of the world have ever been so evenly matched.

And the odds of those two remaining warriors ALSO being the leaders of each side make the story that much more absurd.

Ether reads more like a rejected SyFy Channel script more than a book of scripture.

I was once asked to give a talk on the book of Alma.

That's the book with all the wars in it.

I made up a bunch of stuff about how the BoAlma taught us how to know when we should or shouldn't build up walls to protect ourselves, and how God would let us know that.

That isn't even what that book is about. I couldn't find a single war strategy that would make that thought work. I was stunned how everyone sat there and nodded yes to that idea. The top scriptorians in the ward made a point of telling me what a great talk that was, and how they'd never made those connections.

That was when I realized how full of shit all those people were. I never had any respect for them or anything they had to say after that. Several of those people were college professors. It just goes to show you, titles of people at work don't mean they're all that smart. It just means they jumped through the hoops and have the paper to prove it.

The word
ROAD KILL
comes to mind.


How much does one dead deer on a hot summer day, all bloated and rotting at the side of the road stink?


Yep! You can smell it for a quarter mile.

And you roll the window up on your car and turn off the AC as you drive by and think...gee I'm glad that will dry out soon and not be so smelly.



Yet MILLIONS OF CORPSES???

And no mention of the carrion bird increase?

How could you get near a battle field with that much rottenness?

The fumes alone, wouldn't they knock you out? Or make you retch?

The disease from the bodies stacked up ewwww.
Not all of the bodies got washed down the river.

In one scene he claimed they trod over the bodies of the dead because they stopped up the river! DAMN!

What a dam!

What a sham the BOM is.

the bodies piling up, the wounded, the overall filth of that I know, I've seen here and there,
You have healthy aid workers and military personnel literally dropping like flies after just hours of exposure in some places, camps and around people / refugees,
And if I in my simple mind can compute our current number of military serving today, less than 1% of the population, then perhaps, You could put those numbers into the fictional timeline and population of those BOM people and see that they had huge population, but.... according to the BOM EVERYONE fought, down to the last woman & child.
anyway.
good post.

The typical mormon tactic is to say "prove it isn't true" which is asking you to prove a negative - a logical falacy.