I was born into Mormonism. I was born with a Mormon pedigree and this was reinforced my entire childhood. I was subtly led to believe I was better than other people around me who incidentally all were Mormon as well.

All of my siblings and all of their children that I know of seem to think Mormonism is A-Okay. Some of them know about what my last straw in Mormonism was - Joe's polyandry and as well as the avalanche of other stuff that was just waiting for that straw to fall on it. But they stay Mormon.

My brother supports both his gay son in a relationship and his Mormonism. I don't know how he does it. I couldn't.

So, I don't really know what it is like to convert but I do know what it is like to support this leviathan of a cult despite all of a person's better judgments. And I say good for you for ditching this thing. Regardless of how you came to it, you left it and that is all that matters to me, because I don't think leaving it is an easy thing to do when somehow your life has become entangled in the delusions of Joseph Smith & Company.

Back when I was a teenager I left Mormonism the first time. I wanted to eat, drink and be merry and die. I hated who I was and I hated all the superficial bull everyone else in my family basked in like it was reality. The false friendliness and the hypercritical holier than thou judging coupled with all these "be ye therefore perfect" platitudes were more than I could stomach. I knew it was so much lies back then in the mid 80s. What did I do? I went back to it, signed up for their missionary service, came home and married a Mormon.

It took until my mid 30s to wake up again to the correct intuitions of my teens. I blame finding out about Smith's polyandry but it was only the last straw. The superficial world of Mormonism and the hypercritical holier than thou judging was still in full swing a couple decades after my first exMormon period. So, while I may not know what you went through, I do know two things. It is easy to be sucked into that superficial world of Mormonism easier than it is to leave it. Good for you for leaving it.

Love a dick-of-a-BIC,

Elder Berry

Because I began going to church when I was only about 15 and had begun studying from 14, by the time I spent 30 years in the Church I felt like a BIC. I could hardly recall a time in my life when I wasn't Mormon.

I'll never forget the absolute shock I felt when I realized that it was actually not true. Even though I had my doubts, I never imagined that there was real physical proof of the fraud.

That moment will be with me always. It was a life-changing moment that rocked me to the very core. At that moment I felt like a BIC too.

Funny. I believe your shock was probably more "earth shattering" than my own.

Funny how things are. I've still got one foot in the door with my wife and kids. You probably are free of its clutches at least in comparison to my situation. (correct me if I am wrong)

And yet I'm the BIC with some "prophets" in the pedigree.

Funny. I think cultural Mormonism in Utah is something one can only experience. It probably back in the 80s was better that I was in the heart of the beast. The koolaid back then was stronger than it is today I think - but the Utah "Zionists" I think might be worse in their culturally reinforced eagerness to "be Mormon."

Utah is like the North Korea of These United States.

Yeah, I'm very grateful that I had no Mormon family members. I did lose all of my friends though, except for one. But we don't see each other as much as we used to either.

Every friend I had from the time I was in my early teens were Mormon.

Strange at it might seem, I joined the Church because I am a non-conformist. When LDS a such an insignificant minority in your community, they appear to be non-conformists. How peculiar?

idleswell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How peculiar?

They say they are a peculiar people. Joining around here in Missouri is definitely non-conformist but not in a good way. Once you've cleared up that you aren't an Independence, MO Mormon and a Utah Mormon it is all about polygamy.

idleswell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Strange at it might seem, I joined the Church
> because I am a non-conformist. When LDS a such an
> insignificant minority in your community, they
> appear to be non-conformists. How peculiar?

LOL I know what you mean. I used to call myself a rebel of a different kind.

I'm still acquainted with two friends I had since I was a teen, but I really only seem them about once a year.

Most of my friends now are on-line and I've never actually met them.

Edit: I just wanted to add that I think a lot of adults who join the Church do so because they're at a very vulnerable or searching time in their lives and the missionaries have taken advantage of that.

People who are feeling very secure in their lives are not usually out there searching for a new religion to belong to. They're the ones who say, "Thanks, but no thanks," and close the door on the missionaries.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2013 01:57PM by Greyfort.

Thank you Elder Berry. Very true, BIC or convert, at some point we were invested in it and it is great we've freed ourselves.

Which royal lineage do you descend from? You probably have mentioned it before but I don't remember.

D

I am the great great great grandson of a polyandrist wife of Joseph Smith. After a couple more Zinas came Hugh B. Brown, my great grandfather.

I have one of the most interesting pedigrees that I know of.

My mother I think is first cousin (I might have said second once here) to Gary Gilmore. My grandfather is Rulon Jeffs. My father (Rulon's first child) changed his name at 18 taking his stepfather's last name.

It is like some weird messed up family tree. Thanks Mormonism.

I remember now you telling the story of a great grandmother.

Pardon my ignorance, but is Rulon Jeffs a famous mormon? I don't recognize the name.

http://prairiechicken.blogspot.com/2008/07/teachings-of-warren-jeffs-in-his-own.html

Infamous Warren's father.

wow, you do come from some good mormon stock, LDS and FLDS. How did you even get out? =)

It is great that you are out.

D

I never really felt "in" Mormonism.

As a small child I was a "golden child." I picked up reading early and had read The Book of Mormon by age 8. I was like the Jimmy Osmond of our microcosm and was dragged around to several sacrament meetings to sing "I hope they call me on a mission" around age 6 or 7 but...

Mormonism never made sense to me from a core doctrine perspective. I loved the chapters in Jacob describing philosophical things. I secretly thought Korihor was cool.

But as you know. I was in Utah and totally immersed in this soul-sucking experience of growing up Mormon.

As a scout I was molested and by my teens I was completely disillusioned by Mormon adults. I rebelled. I could still probably if I could afford it smoke pot everyday and do little else. So seeing that my world was defined by Mormonism and I felt I couldn't escape it without a lot of hardships, I relented and went on a mission like my parents wanted. I brainwashed myself to get through that experience coming home even more disillusioned with Mormonism but telling myself it was the people and not the gospel.

As an almost graduated from BYU young man I was thinking about how I could get out of Utah with a career and my wife came along. I fell immediately and hard in love.

In my 30s I "woke up" and realized my earlier intuitions were correct when I read about my ancestor (Zina Jacobs) being courted by Joseph Smith. I was NEVER taught that. The temple house of cards came crashing down...

but not by polygyny.
What does that tell you? Double standard.

I am male and find Joseph Smith AND Brigham Young's wivery repulsive.

I am not against the having more than one spouse at the same time or serially. It is the use of totalitarianism, religion and sex in Mormon polyandry/polygamy that I find repulsive as well as the fact that at a certain point it is impossible for humans to nurture children and be spouses. It is different for everyone and craziness in this area coupled by cultist ways is both fascinating to me and repugnant personally.

But I'm saying that you and many others seem to think polyandry is somehow worse or more shocking than polygyny.
The word for "multiple wives" is "polygyny". "Polygamy" just means multiple spouses, of either sex, and it includes both polygyny and polyandry.

Why are people more horrified by the idea of a man sharing his wife with other men than they are by the idea of a woman sharing her husband with other women?

BadGirl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why are people more horrified by the idea of a man
> sharing his wife with other men than they are by
> the idea of a woman sharing her husband with other
> women?

I don't know. I hated my sister sharing her husband with other women. At least these other women weren't married to other men.

The whole Idea of a man marrying other people's wives or a woman marrying other people's husbands rubs me wrong. What is the point of having a spouse? If it isn't special there is not point. Hypocrisy in human society is a huge trigger for me. Legitimizing it in Mormonism galls me.

That idea of people marrying other people's wives or husbands rubs me wrong too...So sick and senseless. There is surely nothing special in any of it. Your story is a wild one Elder Berry. Thanks for sharing.

It's not that polyandry is more offensive because it was not told to us. It's the fact that it does go along with the "eternal plan". We were brainwashed into believing the polygamy was okay because there were so many righteous women who needed righteous men to be sealed to. Blah blah blah. Married women marrying the prophet also does not go along at all with the lies we were forced to swallow. Has nothing at all to do with double standards. It is the proof that it was all a lie. That's why people have an issue with it.

Basically, the fact that Joseph married women who were already married to priesthood holders is shocking and upsetting to people because it defies everything about polygamy that we were taught.

If you believe what it says in D&C 132, then supposedly God said it is ok for a man to take multiple wives under certain conditions, one of which being that she's unmarried and a virgin.

So Joseph Smith is breaking his own rules he set forth by marrying several women who already had husbands. Prove that polyandry occurred and it's pretty devastating to some TBM's testimonies.

FWIW, I find both polygyny and polyandry reprehensible. I can't imagine trying to find the time and energy to please multiple spouses.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2013 12:42PM by utahstateagnostics.

unless he had multiple husbands himself.
It was the women who were practicing polyandry.

Elder - (and in this case it doesnt grind my nerves to use that moniker) . .

i find myself angry at "converts" more than BIC because my son converted to the church against all my advice.

I have absolutely NO sympathy or empathy for an adult who converts to this religion. A teenager? maybe. I can understand that. But ANYONE who converts after about 1995 is just intentionally deluded and foolish. With all of the ready information out there, I cant understand it.

If someone converts and loves the church then more power to them. But to convert, then later complain that they were "fooled" or not told the "whole story" is the height of laziness and irresponsibility.

I too was "born into" a sort-of cult (I was 3 when my mother converted) and it did lasting damage to my world outlook and life choices. I feel it is bordering mildly on child abuse for parents to inculcate their childrne into this world view when they (the children) have no realistic choice. . i.e. getting baptized at 8?

Vastique-- There is a way of compassion to be in the world and have curiosity and openness towards those whose lives have offered a different experience of reality.

A wise person once said "I am just you having a different life experience."

Mormonism teaches us to condemn those people because the leaders have justifiable fear of reality. It is their mortal enemy.

Your thinking of hating what you don't understand is just Mormon thinking turned inside out. Like a dirty sock, it still smells up the room and wrecks your life.

Why do you think Mormonism preys on the vulnerable for converts?
(because in their grief/bankruptcy/unemployment/poverty they lost their access to a computer or their normal skepticism. Perhaps these missionaries at the door are the first people they have seen in three weeks because they've been in bed with depression.

You don't know is the actual reality.

Why not just leave it at that and not judge converts-after-1995 as less-than ourselves. They are fellow victims of a malicious cult who deserve our respect and support equally.They had their reasons.

You can return your mind to its natural compassionate state through meditation techniques which focus on loving-kindness, a pattern of thinking which boils down to giving everybody the benefit of the doubt and recognizing our common humanity: We all want to be happy.

Working on your Mormon thinking patterns might be your next challenge in your own recovery. I know I was surprised to find they did not go away on their own and I can only imagine how difficult it must be to stop thinking like a "Star-Bellied Sneetch" (Dr. Seuss) when you are BIC.

Best


Anagrammy

Anagrammy -

I lurk more than I post.

I regret that I might have posted more emotionally than I should have.

You are right in pointing out (at least I think the gist of whta you are saying) that my judging people who convert as being ignorant is just as bad as Mormons judging non-Mormons

I apologize for being that way and I need to temper my temper, as it were.

vastique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have absolutely NO sympathy or empathy for an
> adult who converts to this religion. A teenager?
> maybe. I can understand that. But ANYONE who
> converts after about 1995 is just intentionally
> deluded and foolish. With all of the ready
> information out there, I cant understand it.

I used to feel this way as well.

Then I took personal stock. Knowing it was bullshit and needing help to break addiction and get back on my feet, I jumped with both of them back into it and got immersed in it. It is a cult. I knew better. I sacrificed my sanity for security. I won't do that again.

Hope you can understand.

Yeah, on the knowingly jumping in. I took my young family into it. Biggest mistake of my life. I knew the history was bad. I'd read quite a few things, but I saw past it all, happy to explain it away like an apologist does--bad things happen in all religions, men will be men, etc.

What I wanted was community and connection, especially for my kids. Where would they have a sense of deep connection and bonding in a world where extended family was scattered all over the continent, where we had no ties to anyplace beyond a few years. We had a couple of Mormon families we were friends with in a university town, so they were a little crunchy granola--homeschooling, home-birthing. We hung out with liberals, but we found these Mormon families in these alternative communities and thought, "Well, Mormons must be okay."

So, seeing past all the BS, most of all wanting the best parts to be true, thinking that as long as the core of Jesus and God was worth following and having faith in, the rest was just noise. Well, I was wrong. I didn't realize how all or nothing the LDS church was. It was about as liberal and forgiving and cool like that as a Brown shirted thug. And before you know it I'm trying to be "good," doing what's right, being afraid and anxious, learning to fear church leaders, dreading tithing settlement because I knew we were going to be short and we would need to write a fat check at Christmas time to be "right with the Lord."

So I finally dropped out because I burned out and because I'd had enough. The LDS church wasn't a good Christian church; it wasn't a place to grow spiritually and intellectually; it was a run-you-ragged with callings and empty things to do, feed you dumbed-down "milk" forever, shake you down for money, attempt to seduce you with leadership callings and power over sheeple, cult. Oh, excuse me, I mean a damaging and destructive "New Religious Movement."



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2013 03:26PM by derrida.

It seems to me that your anger towards your son converting is projecting onto all converts. If you were born into a quasi cult and failed to teach your son how to think and avoid falling into the same trap, I have no respect for you.

I would be inclined to be more angry at those BIC missionaries because they are the ones propagating the lies. But I'm not. I put the greatest blame at the organization and those at the top or in the middle who know and continue to perpetuate it.

As an adult, even though young, convert I have all the right to be angry that only a sanitize version of mormonism was presented to me. It took me years to pick through all the layers.

After a couple of years of kicking myself for not seeing the lies sooner, I do give kudos to myself for leaving and knowing than my children, grandchildren and so on will be taught the dangers of religion, cults an scams.

After reading about how Marlin Jensen was all honey and nice knowing the shoe was going to fall on those Swedes with the other hand makes me want to kick him - literally.

This . . .

"If you were born into a quasi cult and failed to teach your son how to think and avoid falling into the same trap, I have no respect for you."


Ouch . . but if I am brutally honest with myself I believe there is some nugget of reality there.


I apologized to anagrammy for my remarks and I'll apologize in general to you also, because although I might have some small amoutn of personal pain, it's not right to ascribe "ignorance" or "stupidity" to those who convert as adults1


Your remark hits home because YES part of my pain is that I did NOT teach my son to have a more critical outlook of the world or be able to think for himself (again i dont mean this as an insult, It's just more that I wish he looked at the world the same as I learnt to)

Elder Berry,

That's fascinating, I had no idea you were related to Rulon Jeffs. Your grandmother [Rulon's first wife] didn't want to partake in polygamy -- that is why she left your grandpa, correct?

Did you know your uncle Warren very well? Did it seem surprising that such an emaciated looking spindle of a guy could wrestle his dad's "empire" [for lack of a better word] away from him after Rulon died?

Senoritalamanita Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Elder Berry,
>
> That's fascinating, I had no idea you were related
> to Rulon Jeffs. Your grandmother didn't want to
> partake in polygamy -- that is why she left your
> grandpa, correct?

Yes and on. Yes because she was suicidal and no because she wouldn't have divorced him if her father hadn't gotten involved. Women didn't divorce their philandering husbands back then much.

> Did you know your uncle Warren very well? Did it
> seem surprising that such an emaciated looking
> spindle of a guy could wrestle his dad's "empire"
> away from him after Rulon died?

I never met Warren. I had a chance to go to Rulon's funeral and for some reason I didn't. I've always been uncomfortable around open polygamy. It just makes be uneasy. My parents and siblings went and told me that Warren was cold and reserved with them. Also, my father is very gregarious and all of these people flocked around him and wanted to shake his hand. My guess is Warren was jealous.

Rulon basically handed their organization over to Warren. Rulon wanted this I have no doubt. Warren idolized Rulon from what I hear. People like to think Rulon was the nice one and Warren the evil one but in my opinion the truth is they are on equal footing in the evil dept. Warren is being judged by 21st Century mores and Rulon was judged by 20th Century ones and one formed after the raid on Sugar Creek in the 50s which created a lot of sympathy for polygamy.