Well, today in church the bishop taught a special fifth-sunday lesson for the combined men and women in the ward. The bulk of his talk was on personal apostasy and how it occurs. In a nutshell, people first choose to harden their hearts, often through sin. Once the heart is sufficiently hardened, then the individual cannot feel the spirit, and this causes them to doubt their testimony. Ultimately, the individual experiences a personal apostasy due to their hardened heart.

I could not believe that this was the same person I had confided in regarding my doubts about the church. I had previously served as his counselor in the bishopric, and in spite of my skepticism about his calling originating from god, he was one of the few people I have ever trusted implicitly. We had some good visits together, and I had explained to him the extent of my efforts to gain a testimony. Additionally, I had explained that I could not in good conscience teach my kids something as true which I did not believe in myself. I thought that although we differed in our religious beliefs, he at least acknowledged that I was a decent person trying to do the right thing. Consequently, I was shocked by his description on the process of apostasy, but at least now I know how he really feels about me.

My heart has just about broken this past year as I've lost my faith in the tscc, particularly given the impacts on my relationship with my wife and children. This was compounded today when I realized the duplicity of the bishop whom I had previously trusted. I could sure use a hardened heart, so if anyone knows where to pick one up, let me know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2013 08:27PM by mike222.

Illegitimi non carborundum

Thanks Dave - I needed that.

My heart is much softer since I gained enlightenment away from TSCC. I stopped judging people based on some weird story that classifies people based on ancient curses, thinks others are born in good circumstances because they were valiant in an imaginary previous life, etc. and generally bases everything on a type of 19th century social darwinism.



My heart is softer in several ways.

-I support gay marriage
-I don't believe in the death penalty
-I don't look down on non-Mormons
-I realize "apostates" are almost always nicer than many TSCC members



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2013 08:37PM by rationalguy.

TSCC takes its worst toll on the caring empathetic members, like you. I have found that the nicest members will turn on you in defense of the cult. They are programmed to do that.

If you have enough mental energy, call him on it. Tell your wife about it, too. Expose their secrets and cruelty, and maybe she'll see the light, too.

I think there's one about a half a block from my house. It' used to be a mouse. It got ran over and has been dehydrating on the edge of the road for a few days. I'm sure that heart is hardened by now.

The Mormon church utilizes, fosters, and develops the skill of being "two-faced"

This is not new, it has been going on for a long time, and it is not an offense that pushes someone away from Truth, but a repulsion from deceit and an attraction and desire for an authentic, genuine life.

Some may see evil in an authentic, genuine life, but they'll also see smiles and harmony.

My ex wife has a cold as ice heart. Does that count?

I'm not in a position to be picky - I'd take it.

He is making it about feeling, when it's actually about knowing.

If it was about feeling, I'd put on the MoTab singing Come, Come, Ye Saints and I would feel it.

But I know that many of those pioneers suffered and some died because they listened to lies Joseph or Brigham or Wilford told them and they made choices based on feeling instead of knowledge and logic.

The fact that the bishop spent the fifth sunday talking about people losing their testimonies may mean that you are not alone.

This is where I've become very stern with my TBMs. Stop confusing know for feel.

Kudos to my late TBM Dad who knew the difference between know, feel and believe!

He got upset one day after testimony meeting, complaining that "these folks don't 'know' anything!'"

And saying they should say believe instead.

He was way ahead of his time and my hero for recognizing it for what it was.

What drivel.
They really have NO idea what is going on.

Hardened heart = disciplined brain

Not feeling the spirit = not buying nonsense

Sin = thinking and questioning authority

Personal apostasy = Personal enlightenment, higher standards for knowledge.

Your definitions are spot on. The tscc takes positive attributes and gives them negative labels to keep the sheep in line.

+++1

I don't know, from day one I felt something was off about TSCC. I didn't know it, I hadn't been told the full story yet and I believed the pack of lies the missionaries fed me. I had no reason to think that they were lying, or that the church was purposely omitting information.

But I just felt like something was not right.

So I do think feelings should be listened to just in addition to using your brain!

Whoville might have one.
Or Pharoah
Or Herod.

I wouldn't want one. Though it would really make things a lot easier if we just didn't feel or care.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2013 10:40PM by snuckafoodberry.

I have the organ donor box checked on my drivers license. You can have mine when I don't need it any more. Caution - it's high milage.

So he was talking about you.

We used to have a stake president who would pull such stunts - he'd talk about things people had confided in him and then he called it inspiration lol.

Don't let the jerk get to you.
And refuse any further chats with him.

the thing is we still feel the spirit. I have felt the burning bosom and emotional high many times since I stopped believing.

It does tell me to be nice to my fellow man, it confirms that taking a chance in life is sometimes what you need to do.

in short it confirms moral truths. what a person that has left has figured out is that just because you hear a good moral it doesn't mean the story is true.

members are already familiar with this concept, it is called a parable. Paul H Dunn told tons of parables often without letting on that they were such.

Quarterflash lead singer has one. Vintage but a good song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqeKV2UYq1Q

It appears at the end she gets kidnapped by a missionary on a motorcycle.

Oh,and BTW your bishop is a know nothing idiot.

apparently god hands them out

according to exodus, god hardened pharaoh's heart (and the same phrase is repeated 11 times --- Exodus 4:21, 7:3,13, 9:12, 10:1, 20,27, 11:10, 14:4,8,17)

He's showing his hand when he admits that a so-called testimony is something that must be "maintained" instead of being something that is "received" by the holy ghost.

Maintaining a testimony is a fancy way of saying "sustained self-brainwashing."

First off, that is not how he feels about you.

His statements are what he has been told is the answer to why you left. In other words, he is trying to find an explanation himself as to why a good, sincere person leaves the church.

Since the church is perfect but the people are flawed, clearly you have to belong to the latter category. There HAS to be something wrong with you, seriously wrong, for you to have tasted of the divine fruits of the Mormon gospel and then spit it out.

He is struggling and you have done him a solid by introducing him to your own integrity-laced critical thinking which starts off with the premise that truth matters.

Mormons do not share that basic assumption, which makes a huge difference. Once truth matters, they are on the way out.


Anagrammy

PS. Once you stop believing that people get what they earned in the pre-existence, you can have MORE sympathy or empathy for others. I think my heart is much softer as an exmo than it was when I was in the video game "Plan of Salvation."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2013 11:47AM by anagrammy.