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Posted by: sherlock ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 04:49PM

Thanks for all the great comments on the other thread about sex between consenting adults. I was going to add a comment in about masturbation there but it looks like that thread may close a little too quickly for some continued 'stimulating' debate.

So, the next related question is what's so wrong with masturbation in the eyes of TSCC? No risk of STDs, pregnancy, emotional abuse of someone else etc.

- is it the actual 'release of seed'? Well, not for women. And males have a natural release mechanism anyway, which isn't considered sinful.
- is it that it can't lead to the generation of life? No. Lots of people can't have children but can enjoy sex
- is the problem generating the feeling of stimulation? What's so wrong with this? We think nothing of stimulating pleasurable senses through food, leisure, music, relationships etc
- is it the point of orgasm itself that is sinful? Can't be since you'd be allowed to masturbate as long as you exercised self control to a certain point
- at what age does it become sinful? Lots of children do this very innocently. Does it become a sin on one's 8th b-day?
- is it now considered ok to do this alone as a temple recommend holding adult that is married? If not, why not?

Your thoughts please?

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Posted by: PapaKen ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 04:54PM

It makes you gay.

<snort>

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Posted by: fidget ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 04:54PM

It's a control and a guilt tactic.

Tell people they can't do something that the majority of people will do naturally, and you have them in your pocket feeling guilty and sinful.

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Posted by: kolobian ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 05:29PM

This is exactly right.

Specifically, this is the church's "out" when it comes to so-called priesthood holders never healing amputees, raising people from the dead, curing cancer, making the blind see or the deaf hear, etc.

Obviously those priesthood holders aren't "worthy" so they're not performing miracles. Each priesthood holder hangs their head in shame that they rubbed one out the other night in the bathroom and never questions whether the priesthood magic even exists. They've never been worthy to use it!

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 04:57PM

Well, let me offer the purely medical conclusion:

- It makes men grow hair on the palms of their hands (please note that I have no hair on the palms of my hands)

- It makes women turn into nymphomaniacs (not a bad thing, considering)

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Posted by: Wendy Cohen ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 05:03PM

I swear this forum is OBSESSED with topics about masturbation. Not a week goes by without someone chiming in about wanking their wanker.

Sounds to me like more exmos need to get laid or something...

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 05:10PM

Yeah, we love it here. Hot topic. Get used to it. It's mostly because the LDS church makes such a point of condemning people for it, when virtually all people (100% of guys, and close to 100% of women) have done it or do it. It is such a personal thing that most of us don't believe anyone should be lecturing or judging you for.

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 05:13PM

Just checked: 92% of women, 95% of men. The answer is different when people are asked about it: 38% of women SAY they masturbate, and 61% of men.

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Posted by: Leaving ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 09:57PM

39% of men are liars. Can't speak for the women.

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Posted by: forbiddencokedrinker ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 05:12PM

I agree. So what are you doing later?

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Posted by: Mr Condom ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 05:06PM

Yes, they should all get laid. But, remember to use a condom!!!

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Posted by: EXON46 ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 05:11PM

It does not make you gay. I was gay long before I started.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 05:31PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2013 05:33PM by donbagley.

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Posted by: fidget ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 05:33PM

"Wanna get high?"

OT- but I love Towely!

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Posted by: judyblue ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 05:43PM

Same basic reason I gave for part 1: if the church can drill into your mind that you are weak, unworthy, and prone to sin, and that obedience to THEM is the only way to gain God's love despite all your flaws, then they own you. Since most people have natural sexual urges, they're likely to engage in masturbation at some point. Their inability to resist the temptation feeds that idea that you are somehow unworthy, and that only by devotion to TSCC can you ever become worthwhile again.

It's just control.

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Posted by: Senoritalamanita ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 05:49PM

Because it makes the priesthood holders nervous, if you prefer a Battery Operated Boyfriend (BOB) over the hunks of burning love that preach to you each Sunday.

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Posted by: Hikergrl ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 06:18PM

For the record, many women have wet dreams aka "a natural release mechanism" as well:)

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Posted by: CA girl ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 06:34PM

Two thoughts - First, these are the same people who want to dictate what underwear you have on. They want to make you feel like they have control of your most intimate details, because if they have you by the underwear, feeling guilty about what is normal, controlling your sex life - they have YOU. You are under their control and have surrendered your free agency on the most primal level.

Second, I read an article once by a born-again Christian saying the problem with masturbation is that rouses strong feelings in you, which might lead to discontent with your less-than-Playboy-worthy spouse or to feel bonded to the object of your fantasy. I've heard similar excuses in Mormonism but they go further and say it leads to an addiction with pornography, to sex addiction and probably makes you want to drink coffee. Not that I particularly agree with any of the above but that's their spin on the subject.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 07:40PM

In the 1800s the medical community came to the conclusion
that masturbation had horrible effects on one's health. Books
of sex instruction (with titles like "science of life") warned
against it. Although they didn't warn that hair would grow on
the palms of your hands or that you would go blind, they did
warn that it would drain your "life force" and that it was a
cause of insanity. Masturbators could be recognized by the lack
of a gleam in their eye etc. Chapters in such books had titles
such as "The Secret Sin" etc.

It was thought that spicy foods inflamed the genitals and
encouraged masturbation. This lead Presbyterian minister
Sylvester Graham to invent the "Graham cracker," a bland food
that was designed to decrease the appetite for masturbation.

In addition to the supposed health risks, masturbation was
seen as an indication of lack of self control, that one was
not "master of one's domain." It was also seen as an
anti-social activity since it is engaged in in private. Among
the communally minded Mormons this is significant.

On June 18, 1870, First counselor George A. Smith told the
Salt Lake School of the Prophets about "the evil of
Masturbation" among Utah Mormons. Apostle Lorenzo Snow offered
that "Plural Marriage would tend to diminish this evil
self-pollution," and that he believed that "indulgence on the
part of men was less in Plural marriage than in Monogomy."

Back in March 19th, 1883, in Victorian England, Apostle John
Henry Smith, [father of later Church president and mental-
disease sufferer George Albert Smith] while serving as
European Mission president, visited the Anatomical Museum of
Liverpool. He reported in his journal, "It shows the effects
of vanerial (sic) diseases upon the parents also upon children
born of diseased parents. It also shows the frightfull (sic)
effects of masturbation on both men and women."

Later that year, in a meeting with stake presidents lasting
several hours, the First Presidency and apostles gave
instructions about "Masturbation...self-pollution of both
sexes and excessive sexual indulgence in the married relation."

At their regular Thursday meeting, on March, 27, 1902, the
apostles and First Presidency received a report that "the
practice of masturbation was indulged in by many young people
in the church schools. Pres. Smith remarked that this was a
most damnable and pernicious practice, and the face of every
apostle, president of a stake, and high councillor should be
set as flint against it. The priesthood should be called
together at the stake conferences and the brethren and parents
should be instructed and warned in relation to this matter."

On June 24, 1903, Apostle Rudger Clawson wrote of a meeting of
the general board of education of the church: "During the
meeting I called attention to the importance of the study of
the science of life, which I thought was being neglected in
our schools. It seemed to me, I said, that [more] of [the]
young people should receive instruction in relation to love,
courtship, and marriage, and should be warned against
self-abuse [masturbation] and kindred evils. Many of the young
people acquire the habit of self-abuse without knowing its
baneful effect upon the health."

Thus Mormon leaders started to talk about it as a problem in
the Church. Basically they took the "medical common
knowledge" of the day and clothed it with ecclesiastical
sanction, although there is no mention of masturbation
anywhere in the LDS scriptures.

Masturbation worked its way into the "worthiness" questions
that bishops and branch presidents asked Mormon youths in
their "worthiness interviews."

In the late 1940s and early 1950s Alfred Kinsey's surveys of
sexual behavior of Americans was a shocking splash of cold
water on the face of puritan America. The effect was felt in
the Mormon community and specially at BYU where the teaching
of sociology was under the watchful eye of the Brethren. In
1953 two faculty committees were formed to address the
"masturbation problem."

In 1972, BYU sociology professor Wilford E. Smith conducted a
survey of Mormon university students and found that
masturbation among Mormons is not that much influenced by the
level of Church activity. He found that 83% of inactive
Mormon males masturbated as opposed to 76% of active Mormon
males. The numbers for inactive and active Mormon females
were 38% and 27% respectively.

Masturbation got a boost in Mormon consciousness due to
Apostle, and later prophet, Spencer W. Kimball. He cautioned
against the "sin" as a gateway sin to such things as mutual
masturbation and "total homosexuality" and on to bestiality.
His assertion that "the sin of homosexuality is equal to or
greater than that of fornication or adultery," placed
masturbation only two steps away from murder in the Mormon
hierarchy of sin.

In 1985 the LDS Church published a pamphlet titled "A Parent's
guide," which was designed to help parents discuss sex with
their children. Along with calling the human sex drive a
"myth" and counseling against sexual excess on the honeymoon,
the pamphlet reiterated the Church's ban on masturbation.

With the medical community doing an about-face on the subject
of masturbation, no longer regarding it as a "vice" but as
normal and healthy, the Church had to justify it's rationale
for its anti-masturbation stance. Without contradicting the
views of medical and psychological specialists, the Church
said that masturbation was a MORAL and SPIRITUAL problem, thus
taking it out of the realm of empirically verifiable knowledge.

The Mormon war on masturbation included at least one
casualty. On March 2, 1982 a sixteen-year-old Mormon boy, Kip
Eliason, committed suicide due to self loathing that he felt
from his inability to refrain from masturbation. Kip had been
counseling with his bishop and an LDS therapist, both of whom
accepted that masturbation was a serious sin. Kip left the
following suicide note for his father:

"Dear Dad,

I love you more than what words can say. If it were possible,
I would stay alive for only you, for I really only have you.
But it isn't possible. I must first love myself, and I do not.
The strange feeling of darkness and self-hate overpowers all
my defenses. I must unfortunately yield to it. This turbulent
feeling is only for a few to truly understand. I feel that you
do not comprehend the immense feeling of self-hatred I have.
This is the only way I feel that I can relieve myself of these
feelings now. Carry on with your life and be happy. I love you
more than words can say.

—Your son, Kip"

With no mention of masturbation in any of the scriptures, and
with no empirically-verifiable reason to consider it a
deleterious practice, the Church's current teaching on
masturbation seems to be an erotophobic vestige of nineteenth-
century Victorianism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2013 07:44PM by baura.

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Posted by: moonbeam ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 07:51PM

Really?? Graham crackers are to stop you from wanting to masturbate?

Oh man, I learn a lot here.

Good thing the chocolate and marshmallows counteract that.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: June 26, 2013 04:17AM

Sylvester Graham's original recipe was much more bland than
today's graham crackers. They've been spiced up over the years
and I suppose masturbation has increased as a result.

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Posted by: CA girl ( )
Date: June 25, 2013 08:19PM

Wow baura - very impressive post. Thanks for writing it up - you really know what you are talking about and knowledge is power. Good job.

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Posted by: sherlock ( )
Date: June 26, 2013 04:04AM

Nice one Baura. I checked the 1985 'parents guide' which is surprisingly still available:

http://www.lds.org/manual/a-parents-guide/chapter-6-mature-intimacy-courtship-and-marriage?lang=eng

and yep, your summary did highlight the following gems:

"The honeymoon ought to be a time when the partners learn about one another’s minds, emotions, bodies, and spirits. It is not a time for sexual excess. It is not a fling of worldly diversions that is scheduled between the temple wedding ceremony and a return to serious living. For Latter-day Saints, the honeymoon and early weeks of marriage are a time for private discovery on all levels: physical, social, emotional, and spiritual."

"While sex drive is a myth"

Wow. Were they speaking as men again rather than prophets?

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Posted by: lastofthewine ( )
Date: June 26, 2013 07:52AM

As simple as an unauthorized orgasm.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2013 07:54AM by lastofthewine.

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Posted by: gus2144 ( )
Date: June 26, 2013 09:21AM

The church wants every bit of control they can squeeze out of people.

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Posted by: s4711 logged out ( )
Date: June 26, 2013 09:27AM

That sounds dirty.

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