I don't condone racism and racist comments. But after reading the threads about Paula Deen I must say that people who have never lived in a US city, which has a black ghetto, don't understand the problem. A white person who enters the ghetto puts their life at risk.

I live near an east coast city that has a black ghetto. One evening DW was driving her car and accidently got lost and went into the ghetto. She saw a parked police car and asked the black officer for directions to get out of the ghetto.

The officer said "You should not be here! Your life is in danger. Follow me and I will lead you back to a safe area." So DW followed the police car and about ten minutes later she was out of the ghetto.

White people shouldn't get too uptight about white racism until they understand both sides of the story.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2013 09:27AM by saviorself.

In the ghetto, you are talking about a crime problem, not a racism problem. Black people are regularly victimized in ghettos. Why do you think they all have bars on their windows? Do you know how many black children go missing every year?

Why are white people attacked in ghettos? Because whites are perceived as having money. If you are a wolf and see a fat sheep walking by, of course you are going to attack it. If a white person wanders around in a ghetto, he stands out like a sheep wandering around the forest. This has everything to do with crime and nothing to do with racism. They are attacking you for your money, not your skin color.

The entire irony of your post seems lost on you. Why do ghettos exist in the first place? Because blacks were brought to this country against their will, enslaved for 200 years and then virtually enslaved by Jim Crow for another 100 years. It's been only 50 years since the Civil Rights Act, and conservatives seem to think that somehow blacks should have lifted themselves out of poverty in one generation despite having inferior schools, crime ridden neighborhoods, and grandparents who were forbidden to vote.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2013 09:53AM by axeldc.

... and then some.

Sheesh!

Timothy

axeldc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> It's been only 50 years since the Civil Rights Act,
> and conservatives seem to think that somehow blacks
> should have lifted themselves out of poverty in
> one generation despite having inferior schools,
> crime ridden neighborhoods, and grandparents who
> were forbidden to vote.

Not to mention having their culture totally ripped away from
them. And not to mention the fact that racism against blacks
still exists.

I'm of Italian descent. However I've never heard the words
"wop" or "dago" hurled against me. However, if you're black
in America you've probably encountered the "N" word multiple
times.

axeldc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Why are white people attacked in ghettos? Because
> whites are perceived as having money. If you are
> a wolf and see a fat sheep walking by, of course
> you are going to attack it. If a white person
> wanders around in a ghetto, he stands out like a
> sheep wandering around the forest. This has
> everything to do with crime and nothing to do with
> racism. They are attacking you for your money,
> not your skin color.
>

That's a bold statement. Do you have enough confidence to put your theory to a test? If yes, then try this: put on some old, dirty, raggedy clothes and go for an evening walk in the Anacostia neighborhood of Southeast Washington D.C. See firsthand if you are left alone by the African American locals.

Then return and report, assuming you can still walk.

I have to ask, was this Baltimore? I guess you might not want to give a specific location, but it sure sounds like Bmore.

I don't think this was explained well. I don't want to get into politics, but a lot of people in their ivory towers just have no clue how much many African-Americans hate Caucasians. I lived in a predominately black city, where poverty was high and the level of racism/hate displayed toward whites was astounding. I do not like Tim Wise and his ridiculous race baiting theories, including how he's completely redefined the definition of racism.

Bottom line, it's about the majority and the minority. Not necessarily race, although that is a contributing factor. I was the minority in the city I resided and I was not treated well. I was pulled over illegally by the police, I was racially profiled, I was threatened with arrest for being on public streets simple because I was white. I was harassed. However, I was never attacked or in fear of my life from the black population. I was never robbed or hurt. So I disagree that whites should be in fear of their life in a black ghetto. (there are white ghettos as well, Remington, Hampden, Pigtown) That's a BS stereotype and it's not true.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2013 10:11AM by charpop705.

Sure, there is racism everywhere, but the original poster seems to excuse white racism because of ghetto crime.

I'm sorry you view the world in such a literal black/white way. Most of my co-workers are black and I see none of the black prejudice you allege.

That's fine. I don't see the world in black/white at all. I was raised to not see color and to accept everyone. My bil is AA and my gorgeous little nephew is bi-racial. I think you missed my point entirely. I was shocked to see that not everyone thinks that way. Now, I live in an area again that is highly AA, BUT not poverty stricken. This is an upscale area and I see none of the hate I saw in the ghetto area I lived.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2013 10:34AM by charpop705.

I don't see where the OP is trying to excuse anything, they related a story, but did not try to excuse anything based on Ghetto crime.

Yes! There is a deep seated hatred of whites stemming from a generation or two of being told over and over that all your problems are because of whitey.

I agree with charpop705.

I lived in downtown Oakland as I finished up my career before I retired. I was excited to live in such a racially diverse area and looked forward to making some close friends that were black.

Oh, mercy, was I mistaken.

I complained to the local sangha (Buddhist group) that I was upset they had segregated meditation sittings. There were week nights tactfully called "for those identifying as persons of color" instead of "colored only." I was outraged and met with a member of the board of directors about my concern.

I told him I had moved to Oakland looking forward to living in a more diverse culture (than Utah) and was shocked to see blacks not only happily practicing segregation as BUddhists, but advertising it!

He explained to me that black people are sick of white people. They have to put up with us in the work place all the living day long and when they are finally free, they do not choose to spend their free time that way. He told me if they did not have black-only sitting time, people of color wouldn't come. He told me that this sangha right here is the only one in the nation that has any substantial participation of the black community.

I argued that black people staying away from white people during time off work means that white people don't get to know black people as friends and neighbors.

He tried again-- he said, "They don't want to know you. Don't you get it? You move into an apartment complex that is mostly black and expect that they should be grateful to have you there? Do you want to be thanked? What do you expect?"

He was right. I did feel sort of virtuous.

As time went by, I came to realize that it was easy for me to "not see color" because I had not been beat up by blacks my whole life. One day I sat down to eat a fish sandwich at a little outdoor cafe close to my work. I chatted with a lady who was also eating a sandwich, about her work, her boyfriend. Suddenly she said, "It's great that we can sit here like this, enjoying lunch." I didn't understand what she meant, but I said, "Sure is a beautiful day." Later I realized she meant "because you're white."

The board of directors guy, who is white, is married to a black gal. He said not to feel bad, that he didn't get it either at first. He said to his wife, "I f'ing married you, so doesn't that make me not a racist?" She answered, "and I am supposed to be so grateful every livelong day?" He told me she explained in great detail to him that she could not relax and be herself around white people because they still have a superior and patronizing attitude AND DON'T EVEN KNOW IT.

"But how can that change if blacks don't want to be friends?" I insisted, "how can race stop being an issue if blacks won't mix in socially?" (blacks have their own bars in Oakland. Whites have theirs and a few are mixed).

Then he made this surprising statement, "You have to unlearn racism from a white. Blacks have no burden or desire to educate you. They are sick of you. Learn it from fellow whites because they are the only ones you actually believe."

So I took a class on racism and my eyes were opened. I know understand why blacks don't like us and I don't blame them one bit. I am amused at my own naivete thinking and the class made me realize that I myself am a daily beneficiary of white privilege and don't recognize it.

One of the exercises in class was to go use white privilege and see it in action. So I walked into a pizza joint with a handful of black people in it watching sports. I asked the counterperson to please turn on CNN. He did what I asked without checking with any other customer.

I was so shocked I had to leave because I was going to cry.


Anagrammy

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2013 10:47AM by charpop705.

anagrammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


>
> So I took a class on racism and my eyes were
> opened. I know understand why blacks don't like
> us and I don't blame them one bit. I am amused at
> my own naivete thinking and the class made me
> realize that I myself am a daily beneficiary of
> white privilege and don't recognize it.

I have been aware of the "white privilege" thing for a long time and I agree that it exists and I am a beneficiary. But I am a beneficiary through no fault or action of my own. To hold me personally responsible for something I personally have no control over isn't right either. Ever since I have learned about "white privilege" I have fought against it. How would "he" know that I have unlearned racism if he does not get to know me personally? How would he know if I could learn from him about racism unless he gave me an opportunity to learn?


>
> One of the exercises in class was to go use white
> privilege and see it in action. So I walked into
> a pizza joint with a handful of black people in it
> watching sports. I asked the counterperson to
> please turn on CNN. He did what I asked without
> checking with any other customer.

This really isn't a fair test. You would need a black person to go in and ask the same counter person to change the channel when a group of white people were watching something to see if he did the same thing.

>
> I was so shocked I had to leave because I was
> going to cry.
>
>
> Anagrammy

That was clearly black.

My coworkers and I were the only white people. Everyone in the deli was super nice because they thought we were lawyers as we were all dressed up in professional attire.

Until they saw me.

With my long hair and beard - I must have been an undercover narcotics officer or an undercover federal agent who was dressed up for court - or something.

Suddenly everyone was so polite as to get us the fuck out of there as quickly as possible.

It's easy to not feel racist when you are on top of the hill looking down.

While I was still working I lived in several metropolitan areas. I am white skin. I did not go into East Palo Alto, or North Las Vegas. It is because of my religion. I am a devout coward. Racism is carefully taught in many ethnic societies.

From another desert rat: Fear is the mind-killer...

There are racist people of every colour but the number of racist whites FAR outnumbers the number of "racist" blacks. Some people redirect the pain of intolerance, exclusion and discrimination while others do not. This is very, very different from true racism -- which is based on FEAR of the "other." Most black people that I know are much more tolerant and accepting and tend to judge people individually rather than by what group they belong to.

I do not see that at all. Whites are not racist. They're scared to death to be labeled racist and go to great lengths to ensure they're not.

Many blacks are openly racist. It's PC to be racist towards whites. However, whites are unknowingly racist in their attitude of trying to "help" AA's. It's demeaning and belittling. They don't need white people's help. That's the racism I see from whites. Only they are completely unaware of it.

You just have millions of whites who call our President the N word, a popular TV host who think that black children should be treated like living lawn jockeys and called little n-words, and of course, the LDS Church which is one of the most racist organizations in the US outside the KKK and has no black leaders in its top echelons.

I don't think you get what I mean. I'm not saying that "all white people are racist." This is a hot topic that is almost impossible to discuss rationally but I shall try. There are few openly racist whites today and I've never met a black person that has an irrational, groundless fear of white people. What I am saying is not to confuse reaction to pain and hate and the ways that some people deal with it with racism. Perhaps the odd sound of few phrases turned round will help illustrate what I am saying:

"White people make me uncomfortable and I can't stand being around them and they really shouldn't be here"

"Don't put that in your mouth...a white person might have touched it"

"White people are so filthy and disgusting"

My father (who was American, mixed race, in the military and much older than my mother) grew up in the rural same town as Jimmy Carter. He and Jimmy used to play baseball and hang out with a group of (mostly black) boys until Jimmy's father put a stop to it. My point is that if there is any real racism against white people by black people it's very limited. Now if you are talking about they way people in ancient China reacted when they first encountered Europeans that's a different story...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2013 12:56PM by charpop705.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2013 11:12AM by Cheryl.

I've worked among impoverished African Americans for a long time now. I spent many years teaching in the ghetto and am in a somewhat better neighborhood at present.

After all these years -- I still don't know. I think that most poorer AA's have a similar attitude to Caucasians -- there is generally goodwill and a desire to get along, but not always a cultural meeting of the minds. There can be an undercurrent of racism, which is to my mind, understandable. But I've also had AA parents who have shown great kindness to me, even walking me to my car after a late meeting at school (because they know all too well that their neighborhood can be a dangerous place.)

Coming from the Caucasian professional class, I'm not sure that I have much to offer my students. I am well educated, have a wide knowledge of the world, and a rich vocabulary. But I often think that the kids do better with teachers who grew up in their world and who can relate to them better than I can.

who I liked very much. Many of the black parents requested her for the reasons you mentioned. I didn't have a problem with that.

I did have reservations about how the black teacher was given extra privileges. Because of her race she often didn't attend meetings or walked out early and she sometimes refused to follow the rules about showing up on time to work, not leaving campus early, doing paperwork, and following normal rules which applied to everyone else.

The last few years before she retired, she told administration that she would not stand for being evaluated because she was worried about discrimination. The board and district admin folded and no administrator observed or entered her classroom after that. She pulled this off in spite of never working as hard or doing as much with her students as everyone else who was White, Hispanic or Asian. I guess in a way I can't blame her for using what she saw as a personal advantage on the job.

Some of my friends in other schools had serious problems with discrimination from AA principals who required them to do the work for the AA teachers and provide many multiples of documentation whenever an AA student had a serious behavior problem.

I've experienced little in the way of discrimination from administrators. It's more of a "club" mentality from people who went to school together (both city schools and historically AA colleges) -- a club that I'll never be a part of. I suppose it's the reverse of what they get all the time from white society.

My wife and I struggle with this as well. We live in the south where the vestiges of historic racism abound. Travel in and out of Nashville from the south on I-65, and you're greeted by a garish statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest just off the freeway. Forrest was the South's most successful Civil War general and the KKK's first Grand Wizard. The statue sits on private land owned by an openly racist attorney.

There is no denying that slavery served to completely disrupt AA society. You can't breed and sell humans like cattle without creating long-lasting damage and resentment. It was cruel, and black oppression continued in the south long after the civil war through the prison system here. For a fascinating read, pick up this book: "Slavery by Another Name: The Re-Enslavement of Black Americans from the Civil War to World War II."

But . . .

Racism is racism. Anagrammy's account of the black-only meditation sitting is racism. It's an entirely different universe of racism compared to slavery or a KKK meeting, but let's not mince words. If you're making decisions about a group of people based upon the color of their skin, you're a racist. If a black group wishes to congregate only with members of their own race due to their perceptions of white people as a group, they are racists.

The question becomes, should we encourage or excuse racism among a group that has long suffered under racism? Clearly Martin Luther King thought not. His famous speech asked not for redress, but for true color blindness. He wanted the content of character rather than the color of skin to be the qualifier for an individual's standing in society.

MLK's ideal seems unassailable. Racism from any direction creates push back. To encourage racism as a redress for racism simply surrenders to the pendulum of time. One group's racism will expand until the discriminated group pushes back with their own. The pendulum will continue to swing.

That being said, I realize as a white male, I'm in the perfect position to make these platitudes. Years ago I encountered a couple of Leonard Peltier supporters handing out literature in front of my bank. I asked a question about his murder conviction, and one responded that I was fat and stupid, so what could I possibly know about it? I can't imagine what it would be like to face that sort of mindless dismissal continually for my entire life based solely upon the color of my skin.

I say we need to call out racism wherever we see it. We're asking AA to go almost immediately from oppressed to magnanimous. That's a tough stretch, but continued racism will simply encourage more racism. And racism is bad.

Here's the thing, there are two definitions of racism. You are using the one I use, disliking someone based on skin color.(by the way I agree very much with your post) But, the new definition states that blacks CAN'T be racist. That only whites can be racist because whites hold all the power. I disagree very much with this new definition. It's fallacious.

In order to be true there must not be ONE black business owner that can hire employees, not one black hiring manager, not any black owned businesses, companies or apartment buildings.

charpop705 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's the thing, there are two definitions of
> racism. You are using the one I use, disliking
> someone based on skin color.(by the way I agree
> very much with your post) But, the new definition
> states that blacks CAN'T be racist. That only
> whites can be racist because whites hold all the
> power. I disagree very much with this new
> definition. It's fallacious.
>
> In order to be true there must not be ONE black
> business owner that can hire employees, not one
> black hiring manager, not any black owned
> businesses, companies or apartment buildings.

Yes, there is a concerted effort by many involved in "hot button" issues to transform language to better suit their slant. What better way to excuse racism than to redefine it to exclude your own actions?

In many ways, our battle ground today is equally divided among actual issues and the language we use to define the issues.

Ok I've experienced A LOT of racism lately by many people in the Mexican community here in California and it's VERY disturbing. Gotta get it off my chest. I've never been so hated before just for my skin color. I've never personally been racist. Ever. When I was very young, I lived in Louisiana and have always loved the black community. In fact I've never been treated poorly by a black person nor had I ever experienced racism.

Lately, however, I understand on a very personal level what a piece of shit someone is for hating someone just because of how they look. The level of vitriol I've recently experienced --one incident was just yesterday and I still feel ill --is just unbelievable. So yes, there is another side to the story, althouth I agree with axeldc that your ghetto example is incorrect.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2013 01:04PM by FormerLatterClimber.

Oh I didn't mention what happened. Two neighboring Mexican famiies won't let their children play with mine because ** I'M ** white. My daughter isn't even white. Just me. I'm so mad I could spit. And I'm worried about my daughter going to school here in the future.

I'm told by many Mexicans that I don't deserve to live here because my ancestors stole California from them. Like I had anything to do with that.

Saviorself's post got me thinking about Jared Taylor's "Color of Crime". (It was quoted a lot by folks in the aftermath of Trayvon Martin's shooting.)

Taylor obsessed over interracial crime (which is about 1/6 of total crime), honing in on bits of info like whites are more likely to be robbed by a black than a black is of being robbed by a white. He then concluded that believing ill of blacks is just racial "reality".

While more blacks are in prison than whites that may have more to do with racism in the judicial system, or that poor people have lousy lawyers, than any inherent "racial realism".

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2000/summer/coloring-crime#.UccuqJy2bEc



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2013 01:45PM by crom.

If you want to experience real racism, directed against
anybody with a white skin, get a job as a farm worker in
rural Zimbabwe.

Of course that anti-white sentiment is not based upon any
real ideology of Black superiority -- it is a by-product of
the Cecil Rhodes era in South African colonialism.

UD

The way we look at it at my workplace, racism is understood to be *institutional* and *systemic*, which means that when an individual person exhibits hatred or superiority toward another on account of race or ethnicity, it's called bigotry or bias or hatred, etc. and not racism.

Racism is defined as institutionalized unearned privilege given to one group that often becomes so embedded in our way of doing things that the oppression becomes normalized and invisible.

Under this way of looking at racism and prejudice, people of color in the US are generally not considered to be "racist" because they are not the group around which our institutions (school curriculum, religious ideology, language ideology, etc.) were built. Racism is a property/characteristic of a group in power.

FormerLatterClimber

It pains me deeply to hear your post. I am so sorry that your neighbors refuse to let their children play with yours and say such hostile and hateful things to you.

I am a Mexican-American. I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood in Hollywood, California. My best friends were all white Mormons or Jewish kids. My parents had friends from all walks of life.

My high school was integrated. There were Jews, Christians, Chinese, Blacks, Hispanics, Armenians, Russians, and immigrants from all over Europe. We all got along pretty well.

I have also experienced racism from some Latinos because they view me as "acting too white". I don't know how to speak Spanish. Some feel quite offended by this fact.

My point is that Mexicans/Latinos, like White people, are not all bad, nor all good. Some are hideously prejudiced, and others welcome and have friends from all colors, races and religions.

My family is very happily filled with mixed marriages. Hispanics and whites. Hispanics and blacks. Hispanics and Phillipinos or Eastern Europeans. No one is shunned or made to feel unwelcome.

When people direct rude or racist comments your way, it says everything about them, and nothing about you. In other words, it's all about their ignorance. Don't let them get you down.

I wish you and your family well. It's time to move away from that neighborhood and find a more welcoming spot.

I wish you and your family all the best.

Of course there's racism on both sides. None of it is excusable. However in people like Paula Dean are in positions of power, wealth, and fame and that is why it is far less acceptable for her to be making offensive racial comments. The same would go for a black person in her shoes. If a famous black chef were to be on the food network and be making comments about "whitey" and "honky" and "cracker" I guarantee she'd get fired and flamed by the media too.

It's one thing for some underling nobodies but when you are that level, there are certain expectations.

HAVING LIVED IN HAWAII AS A KID (BEING WHITE) I Experianced racism against whites. The last day of school was "kill howlie day". Howlies are white people. My bro had big problems dating a japaneese girl;Her family didnt approve. So I know theier are plenty of minorities who dont like whites. Interesting though, Ive never had any problem w/blacks. Ive lived in FL. next door to an all black nieghborhood. Got aong fine. Had a couple black friend in HS (CA) -no problems. some of its how you relate to people.