A TBM family member recently posted on FB, a YouTube video on modesty and why women should wear one piece swimsuits instead of two pieces.

Her video was based on a "study" where men apparently only value women in two pieces as tools and objects. Where women in two pieces are amazing people with personality.

I commented on her post saying that while I completely respected her(we have always gotten along and even had college classes together, despite our age difference), I had to say bs on this. To me this type of mindset was encouraging the blame the victim mentality, where it is the woman's fault because of how she dresses.

She deleted my comments. I never swore, I didn't bring up religion. All I did was disagree with her opinion.

I decided to private message her about it.


Here is the convo...

Me:
Why did you delete my comments?

Family member:
I do not want bashing on my face book page. You are welcome to share it to your face book and add any comments you would like.

Me:
I may not always agree with what someone has to say, but I would never delete their opinion. To do so, is called censoring. That is something I don't believe in. I did not say anything rude, I did not speak against your religion. I spoke against your view. That in itself is a learning and growing point for all parties involved.

It was not bashing, it was opinion. If you can't understand that, then you are missing much of the point. Discussion of a topic will always have debate involved. If you wish to have zero debate then say so.
I disagree with much of what family posts. If you wish me to have no input on the subject, then say so now and I'll never say a word of my opinion on your page again.


Then nothing from her. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Though FB did confirm that she saw it and viewed the message that very same night. It's been ten days.

I'm upset by this. I've had many differing discussions on my page over the church, over homosexuality, over eating habits - you name it, I've had it. But I've never deleted what someone has said. Everyone, even if I think they are wrong, has a right to be heard.

In my comments, I mentioned that according to the video I wear a two piece only for the attention it gives me. That is not true. I wear a two piece(here I mean bikini, but I using the cult's wording as infinite dreams pontes out) because I like it. Because it makes me feel more comfortable. That is it! Nothing more.

I'm not sure why this hurts me so much, but it does. I don't like being censored and I feel that women or girls shouldn't be shamed into wearing a one piece based on what men or guys think.

I ended up just unsubscribing from her. We are still FB friends, but I do not have to see her posts anymore.

Am I being too sensitive about this? Do you guys think she was on par or ridiculous?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2013 08:29PM by fidget.

you are bound to get dirty when wrestling in the mud with pigs.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2013 07:59PM by serena.

You had an illusion that she shared your value of free speech and opinion. She does not.

Not only that she's so childish that if you do not completely agree with her....she doesn't want anything to do with you.

She's a cow pie...Step around her and move on.

It's okay to be hurt....you've spent a lot of good times building bridges with someone who doesn't care...ouch.

You can't make sense of nonsense.

She shouldn't even be wearing a swimming suit--it doesn't cover garments. If she wants to get technical. She thinks covering up just a little bit more will make ALL THAT DIFFERENCE. What an idiot!?!

Really, I have not gave much thought into the one piece vs. two piece....as a guy, I can use my imagination and remove any type of clothing blocking my view:) I don't really think it matters...it really is just a "holier than thou" idea again....which is just a superiority complex. Religious people believe they own the idea of righteousness, purity, cleanliness, kindness and so on. It is the cut and dividing of society into parts, which has been going on for ages.

And yes, men are bad because we want to see women's boobies..



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2013 08:20PM by orange.

It is so much easier to use the bathroom in a two piece than a one piece.

+1000

As a TBM, I wore a tankini - 2 piece that covers as much as one.

You are being too sensitive because you are swimming in a sea of people with weird ideas.

Because of our background with Mormonism, we have more oddballs around us than regular people--and I mean this in the kindest possible way.

You and I can prove we are right because we are living in the real world where how you dress is an expression of who you are and is more like your opinion than a moral question.

One has only to look at the changes in the garment from its original god-given, will-never-be-changed, modesty-forcing, gawd-awful uncomfortable garment. It hasn't stayed the same for ten straight years since it was sprung upon the "saints."

The best response to nonesense like this is what they taught me when my son came out of the mental hospital. I asked what to say when he shares a delusion with me. They said, "don't act shocked. Don't gasp or cry. Just say, 'you may be right, but I'm looking at the carpet and I don't see snakes, so I think there are probably no snakes there since we both don't see them."

I swear this works like a charm. Here's how it sounds when applied to Mormon modesty: "You may be right. The sight of a woman's midsection might be intrinsically immoral. I remember a time in history when the same thing was thought about a woman's ankle. In some cultures today, a woman's hair is considered highly erotic and must be covered at all times. Since people don't agree on what is proper modesty, I think it's probably not going to be defined by one or two piece bathing suits."


Anagrammy

Two pieces just means 2 pieces. The tankini was introduced over 15 years ago. But why is it that cult members always say 2 piece when they mean bikini? It's like they are so ignorant as to the fact that for many years now people have been able to get 2 piece swim suits that don't show your midriff.

Yup they always mean bikini. When I say two piece in this I am using their wording, I also mean bikini.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2013 08:29PM by fidget.

Just agreeing with you. :)

I know the study she is talking about, and it has nothing to do with one piece vs two piece swimsuits. The study looked at fMRI pictures of men's brains when they encountered women (or pictures of women, i can't remember which). Before that they gave the men a sexism inventory to see which ones had more sexist attitudes. The result was that men who scored higher on the sexism inventory saw women as tools or things. So basically only sexist asshats have that problem.

And since most penisholders tend to have sexist or mysogynist thought patterns, maybe fidget's relative has a point. Since most of the men in mormon culture (that she lives in) tend to be sexist, then the study would indicate that most of these mormon men view women as tools or objects only - especially when they wear a - GASP - bikini.

Good gawd, both the women and the men in morgdumb seem to contribute equally to the culture's twisted sense of healthy human sexuality. They are both FUBAR with respect to healthy expression of their own sexuality, and with respect to the allowing of society at large to flourish in the sexual realm.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2013 10:12AM by jiminycricket.

I totally get why you're upset. I mean, she can have any ridiculous opinion she wants, but to erase yours and then completely ignore your email.

That is seriously dismissive.

I'm as puzzled by the midriff hiding as I am about the shoulder hiding. Are shoulders sexier than elbows? Are tummies sexier than thighs? If a man is going to objectify a women he can do that to a women in a sweat suit if he's a mind to do so.

The bigger problem is that your relative doesn't want to entertain any opinion that differs from hers. As long as her mind is closed, she can never be the friend to you that she once was. I'm sorry about that, I have lots of those kind of friends, they're great as filler if you have a big party, but you can't really poor your heart out to them. I hope you have other friends to fill that bill.

It's been my experience that TBMs don't usually know how to handle opinions that are different from their own. They tend to be very black and white in their thinking. They're almost always offended by differing opinions on modesty, politics etc. because their opinions are the "true opinions" that come straight from God of course.

I have lots of Facebook friends and relatives just like your friend. They post lots of very one-sided (sometimes rather offensive) tidbits like the one you described. Their intention isn't to generate discussion, but rather to prompt you to dutifully press the "like" button.

But really, what should we expect from a group of people who've been told what to think from the time they were babies?

Her views about modesty are outmoded and prudish and are probably based upon the brainwashing she's received from the church.

You had every right to voice your opinion. Although I agree with you POV 99%, your family member also has the perfect right to delete whatever she wants from her own facebook page.

When you e-mailed her privately she probably got defensive. She probably can't handle conflict, or maybe she is even embarrassed. Who really knows?

Sometimes I hate Facebook. It ruins a lot of marriages, family relationships and friendships. And when it involves politics, religion, sex, it can really get messy.

Before you write her off, try to think of your past time together. You mentioned you had great respect for her in the past and even shared classes together.

Sometimes when we grow up and apart and change, there is literally "no going home again". If you think the relationship is permanently ruined by this one occurrence, then by all means terminate the relationship.

Diamond Jim Brady is quoted as having said (about diamonds): "Them that has them, wears them". Similarly, there is nothing wrong with bikinis. If you have them, wear them.

Oh, several of my TBM FB friends also posted that same video. I watched it and wondered about the reliability of that study. I haven't had a chance but I was going to do some research on the study to see if it's being misinterpreted or just flat out purposely misrepresented.

At any rate, I think it's stupid that your friend deleted your comment. This is, to me, one of the worst things about Mormonism--the passive aggression. It's so destructive. I learned this same behavior and am now really struggling to overcome it and learn how to deal with conflict and disagreement in a healthy way. I think that's why she doesn't respond to you, she doesn't know how to deal with disagreement and sees it as "contention" which, as we know, is of the devil. I'm not making excuses for her, I'm just offering an explanation (which you probably knew anyway) and maybe you shouldn't take it so personally since it really has more to do with her inability to act like an adult and have an adult discussion than it has anything to do with you. It really just shows immaturity on her part. Still, I know it's frustrating...

I agree with you about 2 pieces, however I think people should have control over what is on their facebook page.

I had one facebook friend that had "ATHIEST" in large letters as his profile picture. Also other people with temple pictures as their profile picture. Both are offensive to me and both get deleted by me if they show up on my facebook page. Why? Its my page and I get to control the content there.

Lori

Agreed. I can see both sides. While I wouldn't agree with the orginal FB post (agreeing with Fidget that it creates a blame the victim mentality) I wouldn't post on their page about it.

Their page, their right to have have or delete anything they want on it. If I put a sign in my front yard supporting a candidate or voter issue, I'm not inviting someone to come and put a sign in my yard for the opposite view.

Yes, FB is different from a front yard, but the same principles apply-- it's mine and I have the right to control what's there. It's not censorship.

My personal opinion is you never post anything negative on another person's FB wall. If someone posts something you strongly disagree with, then post the same link on your own wall, and make fun of it and say why it is wrong all you want on your own wall, not someone else's.

If you don't want anyone writing on your wall, make sure to change your settings so that only you can write on it! If you don't want comments either, change those settings too.

Personally, I rarely post anything on my own FB wall, so there is nothing for anyone to comment on. Very rarely does anyone actually comment on my wall. If someone comes posting garbage on my wall, I will delete it. I like a clean, mostly blank page. :) I mostly use FB to comment/communicate/learn on groups that I belong to on FB.

That's the one thing that is nice. There is no "one way" to use FB, like there is only "one way" to do everything in the Morg. If some people want to use FB to post on their political and religious views and try to convert everyone to their view, that is their prerogative. I use it a totally different way, as I said, almost exclusively for the FB groups I belong to.

Unfriend her. Seriously. You don't need to be around that type of behavior. She was rude, dismissive and didn't even feel you deserved a reply back. She sounds like a repulsive human being. Sorry, I know she's family. :-( I guess that sounds harsh, but I know people that have treated me similarly on fb and it really bothered me. I think fb etiquette says a lot about a person.

For the record, concerning the 2 piece, I'm with you. I only wear a bikini, because I'm flat chested and look much better in a 2 piece. I'd look like a 9 year old in a one piece. I definitely don't wear it to try and get attention.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2013 11:03PM by charpop705.

This same thing happened to me just last week with my sister-in-law. I posted about it before she deleted it here.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,916471,916471#msg-916471

She deleted her whole post instead of just my comment. I did send her a message asking her if I offended her and she said no, she just didn't want controversy on her Facebook page. I dropped it. I decided it wasn't worth an argument over.

Also I found this rebuttal article interesting.

http://www.beautyredefined.net/modest-is-hottest-the-revealing-truth/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2013 11:12PM by kjourney.

I ditched facebook and don't miss it one bit. People I want to associate with I still associate with.. There is a reason I rarely see many of my relatives, and that reason is I really have no interest in hearing their silly mormon views

It's just more passive aggression, including the whole attack-then-run followed by the then-play-dead motif. Very Mormon.

Your friend obviously doesn't have much tolerance for differing opinions. Essentially she is the moderator of her own FB page, and as such she gets to decide what she wants and doesn't want there. And as with any board moderator, you either have to make your peace with how they do business, or leave.

Modesty for Mormons seems to be a cultural marker for establishing who is "in" and who is "out" of the group.

As for two piece swimsuits, I was watching a video of a VJ day celebration in 1940's Hawaii. I loved all of the old-fashioned two piece suits -- the ones where the bottom comes up to the waist and shows just a bit of midriff. So charming!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2013 11:48AM by summer.

The Baywatch girls wore 1 piece bathing suits. Still hot! From a guys point of view, if a girl has a bikini or 1 piece it really does not matter to us. Tight jeans, mini skirts, shorts, or a nice fitting dress that covers everything, nice slacks that are not necessarily tight are all equal in to ability to bring a guy to thing sexual thoughts about a woman if he chooses to do so. If we find the woman attractive, sexy, interesting it doesn't matter what she is wearing. We can think sexual thoughts about her with whatever she has on.
The truth is a woman in bikini undies is sexier than in a thong and the thong shows more skin. Also the thinking that a woman's value, worth, spirituality, goodness is based on a 1 piece or 2 piece is just dumb and closed-minded.

I think it's a woman's choice whether to wear a one or two piece, and she shouldn't be criticized either way. Of course, telling people that two-pieces are not modest enough and that us men only objectify women who wear them is like saying the women are stupid and the men are pigs... thanks a lot, but I don't agree with that. I do prefer seeing women in two-pieces but the one-pieces still look good and well, you still look like a woman!

I guess you could equate this to men who wear speedos or long-shorts... of course many more men wear long-shorts and I'd rather not see the speedos but I don't think there's a modesty problem either way.

"I don't want bashing" really has the silent addendum of "except for the bashing of half-naked women in this video!"