What does it take to be excommunicated? Do you know anyone who's been through it? I'm curious how this sort of thing happens, and how they go about it.
In my opinion, it's harder to get exed than it used to be. The bishop's handbook basically says
-Teaching doctrine that's not church doctrine after being told to quit it. -Bad legal crimes. -Joining another church.
Various infractions like adultery or fornication usually get people put on probation or disfellowshipped these days. That's considering that the person was contrite, or pretended to be. They might ex one if they said they were unrepentant.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2013 11:35PM by rationalguy.
I was pretty repentant. I flat out told them I would do anything, *anything*, I begged, pleaded, sobbed, and waited 45 minutes outside the bishop's office, after a two hour court of "love", and was ex'd. During those 45 minutes, I pleaded in prayer to let me maintain my membership, I made one of those 'heavenly father I know you know my heart, I know you know I'm sorry, I know that you will allow me another chance, and I will do whatever it takes to mend things with my husband" kind of bargains. I was at the lowest of low points, that I've ever been in my life.
And the verdict.....not so much. Pretty much putting one of the biggest doubts to that date, about whether anyone in the sky actually knew ME, or my heart. Because why and how could that happen? I knew I was sincere. How come he didn't?
Anyway, I guess that's kind of personal, and probably more than I should share, but that's my experience. This is still a pretty painful thing for me to think about, and it was more than four years ago. :(
Actually, the teaching of false doctrines is only IF you say they ARE the doctrines of TSCC. Funny wording of the rule. Anyway, I wasn't ex'd for teaching false doctrine because I told the SC and his wife and the bish and his wife that what I was telling them was NOT the doctrine of JS when I taught them. So after telling the "love council" that the BoA etc was bunk, they DF'd. I was most definitely not repentant and told them the story of Stephen before the Sanhedrin and challenged them to "do what they had to do quickly" referring to Christ telling Judas. And I won the appeal of the DFing.
Generally, open defiance to the church and it's leadership is the only guaranteed way I know of to get ex'd. They don't like to Ex unless they have to. Most people ex'd will never return to the church and the church will lose all power over them. They prefer to disfellowship. It preserves the power over the guilty party and that person probably will return to the fold.
Joining another church is not grounds for excommunication. If your a man, then the grounds for excommunication depends on if the SP likes you or not. For a women, it is still if the SP likes you are not. The Bishops are now told by the SP what to do. The SP has all power over his little kingdom.
Well, it was spelled out in the bishop's handbook at one time that joining another church was grounds. They may have changed it, but it seems a little unlikely. Just attending another church was spelled out as NOT grounds for exing.
Formally joining another "church" is grounds for exing but informally joining is not. Nor does the rule apply to religions which are not "churches". This means, to my lawyerlike mind, that you can become a wiccan, a unitarian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddist, or Muslim, etc., even formally without being exed. Actually, even joining a Christian church won't get you exed unless you make it public or someone doesn't like you.
I think it would be hilarious to get ex'ed, it would make a great story for parties. Would i have to get the attention of some high ranking apostles, or just the local bishop? And would they just send me a letter, or try to arrange a "court date" to scold me first?
"hey guys remember that time the mormon church excommunicated me... ahh good times"
If "my" bishop (never met the guy) had been reading what I've been posting here since I started to use my real name, it might have been grounds for getting the boot....but I resigned before that was an issue.
Yes, because TSCC says that's not their doctrine. (Well, not right now, I mean except for later, you know, for all eternity in the next life, or here on earth during the millennium.)
I think they're so strict with polygamy at the moment because there's always suspicions that the church officially practices it in secret, etc, so they need to show they're having a firm stand against it. But polygamy is a guaranteed way to get excommunicated for sure.
The only type of polygamy that won't get you excommunicated in the church at the moment is when your wife dies, and you marry a new woman in the temple. In that case you've got two wives in the eternities. So technically a couple of the Apostles are polygamists by church doctrine, just they were never married to two living women at the same time.
I bet if you just told a few people you were practicing polygamy and they told the SP and bish, they would hold a council and, by refusing to show up, you would be exed! LOL. Fun way out of the cult.
My Dad wasn't exed for his polygamy and serial adultery. Bish knew because it was a major issue during marriage counseling. (The only counseling Dad would go to.) (In 1978 ish.)
But he paid his tithing. Maybe anything can be bought for money.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2013 11:39PM by crom.
That's the only reason polygamy is not practiced in the Cult. If the Aints ran their own country they would practice it. Remember, it was only removed "by divine inspiration, cough, cough." when the Feds put pressure on them.
Well I got exed and it was bizarre and I'll try to cover some of the assumptions and explanations that went around after the fact to try and provide some context.
So I hadn't gone to church for 7-8 years and was living with a girlfriend. One day I hear my girlfriend come home and hearing her car I go to the front door because we were going to celebrate by grilling steaks and having drinks. So as I open the front door with my 3rd beer in hand and she yells out who are these effers in front of my house. Well I recognized by their short sleeve white shirts and discount ties that they are from the morg. They ask if I'm Bro. X I say yes and they tell me they are my HTs. I'll skip small points of the conversation, but I was less than polite, but let them in.
Over the course of the conversation, during which my girlfriend showed absolute disdain for these two, I explained that I was in no way a believing member of the morg. JS, BY etc crazy and more recent profits are douche. So they leave.
I then get a letter to attend my CoL and I respond that I will be there. I show up and they want to excomm me for having sex outside of marriage. I said they don't know that and I won't discuss my sex life with strangers. I tried to explain that their leaders were crazy etc., and it was all lies, but that didn't seem to matter. After about 45 minutes of them just pushing on sex outside of marriage, I caved and said if it's animal, mineral, or vegetable that counts as sex outside of marriage then its been done. I got exed.
So within a week I receive a sealing cancellation from ex, I sent back approval for the cancellation. She was from a moneyed morridor family. So several people told me that I was cleared out to make sure that would go through.
Girlfriend from the time moves away and discusses this with people and they say no way would you get exed for having sex outside of marriage. I had to be gay (this was also at the peak of the props the morg was backing). So then I had to explain that's not the case - not that there is anything wrong with that.
Ex then heard that it was probably an attempt by the morg to force us to get married. Which, if memory serves me, this was one of the veins of questioning and my parents would not be above these tactics.
I live in hick OR. I don't know if the morg is just more hardcore out here or what is going on, but I thought I would have been left alone. I never came to this site before my excomm., but I still had enough info and sense the church was a con, but I didn't have the certain knowledge that I then gained.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2013 03:35AM by templeendumbed.
Total strangers show up to give me a letter about a CoL.
I throw it out.
I didn't go to their party. Don't know if they ex'd me or why. I didn't know anyone in that town, including leadership.
30 years later I found out i'd been ex'd for living with my fiancee the two weeks before we got married. They have no idea if sex was involved or not. To this day i've never discussed that time or any issues with it to anyone from the church.
They took me back and rebaptized me without ever asking or telling me why I was ex'd. That amazed me.
I went back for 20 years. Now i'm out for good. A GA told me I shouldn't have been x'd. My question, WHY was I then???? Crickets.
Almost same story for me. HT's showed up and saw my girlfriend and her daughter were living with me. Got CofL letter in the mail. Decided I was going to go just to ensure I was not ex'd (only because it would kill my mother). The Bishopric was all there for that and started questioning me about the arrangement. I flat out lied to their faces and they were all so shell shocked they couldn't believe I was holding a straight face about not having sex, she was just a roommate, lived in separate bedroom etc. So they start getting into more detail....ever had oral sex (Nope), ever had anal sex (Nope, and offended you are asking that), that shut it down and they left me alone after that.
There are some clear guidelines for being ex'd but often the process can be arbitrary depending upon whether you have a compassionate or hard-liner Bishop / Stake Pres.
The former will likely witch hunt less actives that are clearly in a sexual relationship outside of marriage and try to disfellowship/ex them.
It does depend on who you are. I know one less active female YSA who was disfellowshipped because she had sex outside of marriage (and as she hadn't been to church in years the Bishop had proactively chased this one). She didn't care as she has no intention of ever returning.
But in the same area I also know a highly less-active son of a member of the stake presidency who's having sex outside of marriage (just had a baby) and he will never be pulled up on this. Should the Bishop even try to take him through a court of love, the father would intervene and it would be cancelled immediately.
So in essence the whole process is about a bunch of men trying to exert their pretend power and it has nothing to do with God at all.
Ah, for the good old days. In the 70s, all I did was ask to have my name removed from the church records, and they ex-ed me.
Interestingly, in a letter from the bishop, my request to have my name removed became "your request to be excommunicated." And the final letter from the stake president stated that I had been "excommunicated ... on the basis of your written request."
I mentioned to a non-Mormon friend that I had been excommunicated and was a bit nervous about it because there could be negative connotations if word got out in the general community.
Given how the Mormon Church functions, "I should think it's something to be proud of," was his reply. And after thinking about it, I agreed.
So, to those of you who simply resigned without the privilege of being excommunicated, sorryeeeee!!
I won't resign because it would let them think that they have some type of real life and not make believe authority over me. If it is make believe then all you are doing is walking away from nothing. To me if you resign then you are giving credence to their scam. You are acknowledging that it is a real power in your life. I think it would be funny to be excommunicated. Only because I don't give a fuck.
What notification is sent to ex-spouses if someone is excommunicated and they were sealed in the temple? Are they even notified? if so, what information is in the letter they are given (I'm assuming it's a letter)?
My aunt got excommunicated fro getting pregnant outside of marriage at BYU. She was a BYU student and had signed the honor code plus she already had sex when she was 16 years old. They told her because it was her second guy she had to be exed her boyfriend was an RM but it was his first time so he said and he didn't get excommunicated for it although he was endowed and my aunt wasn't. Anyway my aunt got re baptized and is now the most uber Molly Mormon there is.
subeamnotlogedin Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > My aunt got excommunicated fro getting pregnant > outside of marriage at BYU. She was a BYU student > and had signed the honor code plus she already had > sex when she was 16 years old. They told her > because it was her second guy she had to be exed > her boyfriend was an RM but it was his first time > so he said and he didn't get excommunicated for it > although he was endowed and my aunt wasn't. Anyway > my aunt got re baptized and is now the most uber > Molly Mormon there is.
No offense, but your aunt's choices and ignoring TSCC judging her kinda disgusts me.
subeamnotlogedin Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > To my aunts defense she was very pretty and it was > in the 70ties with flower power and free love.
Oh no. I'm not talking about what she did behind closed doors. I'm talking about what she did in public: go apologizing and trying to make amends with the church for what she did in her private life.
I found for years with friends who were ex'd that it depended on your gender. If you were female you were ex'd for adultery/fornication and if you were male you were dis/fl/shiped.
I was pretty disgusted with that. A friend of mine in a SHOCKING marriage had a 'one off' sex incident. She was ex'd. My husband who was adulterous with anyone who wore a skirt, over quite a period of time, was not. Although FINALLY they ex'd him for 'speaking against the Church'. It took me a while of inactivity, but I resigned.
When I told a close tbm friend that I had resigned and that basically it was because I no longer beleived and had had a couple of affairs since my divorce, she said "They don't exommunicate for that any more". I said "They may not, but that was what I wanted". She accepted that!
I hadn't stepped in a churchco. church for probably 8 years. One evening (details about the evening and live in girlfriend deleted for time) two dorks pull up and ask if they can visit with me and I let them in and I told them that I wasn't mormon, wouldn't participate, and don't believe a thing about it, in fact it's bad.
Got a letter alerting me that a court was being called and I responded I would attend ( I wanted to see what one was like). Showed up and that is when they notified me I was being exed for sex outside of marriage.
Short of the long I asked how they knew that and refused to discuss my sex life with them. Was able to tell them a bunch of things of why churchco. is not true. I discussed how I knew of two fathers that sexually abused their daughters and they weren't exed so what message is this court sending.
Some other good stuff, but I found it easy here in mid rural Oregon. It may be more difficult where you are at.
My senior year of high school, the YM and YW presidents in my ward had an affair. They managed to just get disfellowshipped by moving to another stake when it was time for the court of love and lying about actually having sex. They claimed they were in love and wanted to be together and just went on dates. No sex. Sure, and I'm the Easter Bunny. I know for a fact that this was not the YM president's first affair. If they had stayed in the stake this happened in, they would have been exed. They both divorced their first spouses and married each other and are still uber TBM. I actually saw them in the temple a few years back and wanted to vomit on them. It's a good thing we weren't all in a prayer circle!