Hi everyone, I've been on this site a few times and I find that you all have a lot of great insight about the church, so I figured this forum was a good place to post this.

I have been attending BYU for the past few years, and I have a student job there. I have recently studied and come to the conclusion that the LDS church is not true. So I stopped going to church, and I started looking into transferring away from BYU. (Which I've unfortunently found more diffucult than I expected, the schools I've looked at will accept most of my credits, but only apply a handful of them towards graduating. I'd have over 100 credits, but I'd basically be starting over!)

After a few months of not attending, my bishop eventually asked to talk to me. So I went in and honestly told him about my beliefs and the reasons for them. His response was rather surprising. He didn't try to argue, or refute any of the evidence I presented, he just said, basically, "It doesn't matter if you have a testimony or not, you signed a statement saying you'd come to church. It is your duty to uphold your promise." He said that my employment at BYU was dependent on my eclisiastical endorsment, and if I didn't come to church, he would revoke my endorsment and I would be fired. Furthermore, and I didn't notice this before, he said that if my eclisiastical endorsment was revoked, I would be ineligible to live in BYU-approved housing!

WTF!?! This can't be legal! I will be fired from my job and kicked out of my home if I don't attend a church I don't believe in! I found this absolutly outrageous and told him so, but he seemed incapable of seeing anything wrong with it. He said I'd signed the honor code, so it was all perfectly legal.

Help! The church is litterally trying to destroy my life!

Unfortunately, students have been kicked out for doing less than that. Read this thread.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,772792,772911

'Welcome' to good ole time "religion", the LDS variety/presentation!!

Nothing like a bit of intimidation/coercion to solidify your testimonkey, 'eh?

go back & hand in your resignation, You'll be AHEAD IN THE LONG RUN!!!!

I don't know if that's necessarily the best plan in this situation. That would leave him with no job, no home, and no school.

it may be too late to patch up the situation anyway. He will be under constant radar from now on.

Post his # And let's blow up his phone I will pledge to call him no less than 25 times a day!

It's legal.

And it's their standard operating procedure.

Question: What percentage of the U.S. Population consists of
lawyers? What percentage of the LDS Quorum of Twelve Apostles
is lawyers? Which is more?

Outrageous? Yes. Legal? Yes.

My advice is to quietly submit and go to church. Be practical. BYU owes you a degree for the work you've done. Get your degree and then leave the church. Actually, your bishop wasn't completely unfair. He could have pulled your ecclesiastical endorsement on the spot. At least he's giving you another chance.

Nobody said that you couldn't bring some entertainment with you to church to block it all out...phone, kindle etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2013 02:12PM by want2bx.

I would go with this idea personally

Your best bet is on being very loud and public about it.

But it will be a very nasty fight. Your angle wouldn't be to discuss how legal the issue is but how unethical it is and how cult like the church looks in this situation.

The church understands bad PR. It's one of the few things that motivates it to change.

How close to your degree are you? If you are close, I honestly would just submit and finish your degree, then transfer if you plan on continuing education.

Some say get out. Some say stick-it-out. You're lucky the bishop didn't throw you-out. You signed the contract to accept TSCC's rules at BYU. They own you if you stay and you have pledged in a legal document to live according to their criteria.

Any bishop can revoke his ecclesiastical endorsement at any time. Sure there might be guidelines he has to abide by, but in the end he has all power over you. If you stick-it-out, may I suggest you RECORD ALL FUTURE CONVERSATIONS with your bishop. I don’t trust any Priesthood authority figure. Dallin Oaks was videotaped and is seen on this YouTube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g64_UW9_VXA (@3:03 minutes) saying, “Your action is the Lord’s action.”

Your bishop is taught via church policy in the handbook of instructions that he rules supreme (also, according to Oak’s remarks). He is the common judge in Israel over his flock and is justified in his decision making process. He can even renege on any prior conversation he’s had with you. Protect yourself – record everything from this point forward – that is, if you’re planning to stick-it-out.

Find a job that requires you to work on Sundays.

It's a dodge, but one that both you and your bishop can live with.

Agreed! Cafeteria jobs on campus always need sunday workers and are fairly easy to get.

Join the struggle, persist, be judged, be persecuted, and build the victory.....


Or submit.


This is you. No soft landings, you're in the mix if you want to move forward as you have determined. I am glad you have this forum and community as support.

Go make yourself the way you want to be. Having a BYU degree and alumni association, if you graduate from there, that's your practical future. You also will have emotionally adapted to avoid conflict and struggle.

Having said this, this is not advice!

Just one informed way of a BYU graduate to respond to the situation you have outlined. Struggle is not necessarily bad. Our society is wrestling with fundamentalists and you find yourself in the mix.

What will you do?

I'm in pretty much the exact same situation you are and I have also found bishops to be fairly tolerant of my beliefs. However, I have no choice but to finish here because I am very close to the end and I have been going to sacrament meeting as appeasement for a year and a half now--it's really not that bad once you get over your initial shock at finding out how thoroughly the church has screwed you and that it is not ultimately true like you have been told and believed your whole life. So, if it would be quicker and you think you could maintain your sanity then push through and see if the bishop will let you come to sacrament for your attendance. Or, if you have the option to transfer and it looks good, then definitely do that. Good luck to you my friend, you are certainly not alone. I personally do not know others in the same boat as us because it is too risky to try to assemble really but it would be nice. And yes, their policy of letting people change into mormons but not from mormons is certainly unjust and reeks of a lack of religious freedom. Wait until you have graduated and have a physical transcript in hand and then on facebook and wherever else possible let the people know how truly close-minded and freedom infringing they are at BYU. I could go on forever about how censored life is there but not now.

Part of a degree is alumni, just making sure you put that in the practicality of your process. BYU alumni do not support ex-Mormons.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2013 03:17PM by gentlestrength.

^^^^^^^^ Yes, this ^^^^^^^^

I don't know what they might be able to offer me and I don't care. I don't want to see BYU ever again after I'm done with it. I will make do with other means. They have had their chance to show what they're made of and I want no part in it, even if it's the "norm" for most businesses/religions.

I'm not sure you connected with the point. If you have the chance to graduate from a university other than BYU as a former Mormon it would be valuable to have the support of the new university's alumni. Do not underestimate that value. On the other hand carrying a BYU degree will forever associate you with Mormonism whenever anyone looks at your degree.

Even if you choose to lie in small talk that will be with you too.

Where did you go to school? Go Cougars!

Oh, boy, that sounded familiar. The only reason I was allowed to complete my term working for the LDS Church was that I was leaving in a few months anyway. They did tell me that I was considered to be on probation with my job though.

I got kicked out for getting pregnant at 17. Fuckers kept my money too! (Already paid for first semester and dorm!) Attend the damn meetings, play on your phone or type to us on this forum while you are there. Get your degree and once it's in your hands, the leave the church. How much longer do you have?

Sounds crazy: bullying, cornering, manipulative and against anything that would actually come from Jesus Christ. Wrong in the name, wrong in practice and wrong in principle. Terrible way to conduct a ministry, church or a land. Land of the FREE - luckily eternity is only a small part of this ridiculous society.

Unfortunately, this is what you signed up for. Not only would you lose your BYU job and BYU housing, but you would be kicked out of school altogether, even if it's in the middle of the term. And there goes that term's credits and your tuition money. Not to mention that if BYU accuses you of an "honor violation," many other colleges will interpret that to mean that you cheated, thus denying you a transfer. Nice, huh?

With more than 100 credits under your belt, the sensible thing to do would be to attend your meetings and stick it out. Sorry, but that's reality. Once you have graduated and have your transcript in hand, you will be free to leave the church without academic consequences.

Your bishop seems like a fairly sensible guy under the circumstances. He's not requiring you to believe, just to do what you agreed in writing to do. Take his warning seriously, or be prepared for your life to get a whole lot harder.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2013 06:24PM by summer.

+1 -- what summer said!

I went to BYU my freshman year and rarely went to church because I knew I was going to bail and transfer. The worst part was sitting through all those pointless BOM classes and taking doctrine tests when I knew none of it was true.. yuck. Now I'm enrolled at a public university and get to take classes about all sorts of interesting things that actually happened!

You work for a church and attend their private school. I don't care if it's Mormon, Methodist or Muslim they have the right to terminate, discharge or expel people who want to change their contract midstream.

Also in your situation now. Deep into a degree and finding the truth. I had no problem with the honor code for the first years at school. I was seriously hardcore about following it(kinda a douche looking back now). Not gonna lie, it sucks to not have religious freedom. Not being able to act on what you belief. I am fighting with anger and a bit of depression every saturday night/sunday morning when I am reminded that my agency has been taken from me. A few sundays ago, I almost lost it when they were singing Praise to the Man. "He died as a martyr." Since when is someone who dies in a gun fight and kills two people a martyr!


I'm with you that it feels illegal, as the founding principle of this country is stripped from us when we sign the honor code. It probably is legal though, considering the amount of lawyers in leadership of the LDS church.

I've personally made the choice to stick it out. Opportunity cost my friend. One year of 3 hours a week, to save literally tens of thousands of dollars in tuition. Not to mention that we are already two years behind everyone else in terms of savings and career progress due to the mission(although I really do think the mission helped me learn a lot of useful skills that will help get that entry level position at least. (Positive attitude :).


For real though, You are not alone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2013 07:03PM by likeaboss8821.

I am NOT a lawyer, and I go along with the consensus here: With 100 credits, stick it out and fake it.

But...

I would love to see a case like this fully pursued. Several people here have said what BYU is doing is legal and within their rights. But I really wonder.

The contract OP originally signed was signed without full disclosure. He/she signed it with the understanding that the owning organization (TSCC) was what it presented itself to be. Well, that's just not so, and I think there is ample evidence of that, and evidence that TSCC works very hard to keep that ample evidence from its members.

I think a case could be made that the contract was fraudulently presented and was therefor unenforceable.

But again, I am NO lawyer, so what do I know...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2013 09:41PM by left4good.

It may make you feel better to transfer out at this time and seek a non-religious school that has an excellent reputation.

University life on a regular campus is a lot different than BYU. It may be your only chance in your life to experience what that is like. You don't want to look at your degree later in life and be disappointed in your school. You also have to put up with non-Mormon companies and people that have never heard of BYU or have a prejudice toward it because of Mormonism. University is a blast...don't waste it on useless peeps and their illogical dogma ruining your life.

If your GPA is pretty good, you can switch to a cool school like:

WEST
University of Washington
University of Oregon
Berkeley
Stanford
University of Colorado

EAST
Yale
Harvard
University of Mass.
Boston University

SOUTH
DUKE
UNC
University of Florida



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2013 07:34PM by orange.

Frankly, I'd suck it up and stick it out. Degree solidly in hand, do whatever you want...from what I understand, a degree can't be revoked for resigning from TSCC after conferral. Maybe I'm wrong, but from what I've read here, I don't think so.

I might get some flack for this post. But it might be a good idea to just go to church to avoid any drama. A degree is a degree. Luckilly, we live in a world where you can be in a place, but take yourself out of reality. Just take a tablet or smart phone with you and play angry birds, do your homework, check facebook, or somthing else while you have to go to boring, untrue church. It sounds like your only 20 credits away from freedom. Just keep it going and soon you'll be free. I guess you can think of it being a shady way to pay for your tuition. The tscc puts in a lot of money for BYU. Tuition would be a lot more expensive there unless the school didn't put a shitton into it. Think of it as a part-time job you hate till you graduate from school.

Also don't go spreading anti as tempting as it might be to do. The asshole bishop can use that against you and kick you out. Hang in there. I also advise getting some U of U clothing. That can get under the skin of a lot of people. Saw a guy the other day with a red shirt that said, "Max Hall hates me." couldn't stop lauging.

Wow have my eyes been opened. When I went to BYU in the 70's you needed a bishops signature on your admission application. It was a one time only deal. That signature was good for the entire time you were there.

The BYU Honor code is a one way street for the MORmON way.

A non member attending BYU is free to join MORmONISM, but a MORmON who chooses to join a non MORmoN church even while adhering to EVERY BYU standard is guilty of not being morally true.

Charles Larson was a convert who left MORmONISM while attending BYU, BYU and the Church tried to ruin him in every way they could.

His comments may be of interest to you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_xVN3TrAGg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2013 09:31PM by lucky.

It doesn't matter if you really believe, the church is completely content with doubters that pay tithing....

Seems to me that is what you signed for. Why dont you just finish school there?. I know that many students and graduates at byu are non-believers. Just hold on until you are done.

I have a degree from BYU. I no longer consider TSCC to be my ethos.

If I were the OP I would get out of there ASAP. Looking at the big picture, yeah it blows to lose credits, but consider this, if those credits were worth anything at a reputable transfer school, they'd accept them. That shows the true value of a degree from the four year high school extension on the hill.

Bite the bullet and get yourself into a proper University that will be a part of your life forever. Be proud of your association with your university and alumni association and make them proud of you. A few more years with your nose in the books is a small price to pay when you look at the big picture.

Screw the BYU. I own a sheepskin from there and it is an albatross, rather than an asset.

Cooperate and graduate, then once the paper is in your hand tell the lot to go f*ck themselves. What a creepy cult.

I had to put up with them for several months after I went inactive. Forced to go to church once a month to keep my endorsement.

Endure and as Johnnny Canuck says, get the hell out when you can.

GET OUT OF BYU! Do you want to stay within the grips of their control?

Some other posters brought up a good point... do you want to be permanently stained with BYU on your degree the rest of your exmo life?

Think about all the bothersome questions from people thinking you are Mormon. You can find another school quite easily. Who cares if you have to go a little bit longer to make up some credits for different graduation requirements.

Go to a school that you feel proud of. Don't sacrifice your life on the altar of Mormonism. Take control of your life and change school. Sometimes, it isn't about the logic of the situation.. you have to follow your gut instincts.

Your gut is telling you this situation is intolerable. Listen to it and go to a school where you can be yourself and have the support of the alumni.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2013 11:23PM by gracewarrior.

Where you got your degree will matter to you down the road...

I am 40 with a bachelors, masters and a doctorate. I love all of the schools I went to because they were mostly good state and reputable private schools know around the world. It makes a huge difference when applying to graduate school and a number of major employers. Do not get short sighted and stay just because you are almost done. It will haunt you like the plague. Transfer now and do the extra credits at a reputable school you and your future family can be proud. This is not to say BYU is giving you a bad education. That is not the point here. It's what will show up on your resume/CV for 40+ years.

If Mormonism implodes, which seems very likely during your lifetime, your degree will show that you were part of the delusion at one point and will reflect badly upon your perceived decision making skills.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2013 11:16PM by orange.

+1000

Some bad news for you. Most people don't consider BYU to be a center for learning and wisdom. Mormons like to hire Mormons, but BYU degrees are only in demand in fields where they need people who will suck it up and obey.

I've worked for Fortune 500 companies, large companies on both coasts, and I own my own company now. BYU on a resume usually gets thrown in the reject pile.