My TBM sister-in-law posted a link to this video on her facebook.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtzIcz7MOkc

This was my response:
"This makes me think we should put more emphasis on teaching our boys to respect and not objectify women. To me, there should be more responsibility put on the men and boys who do this and less pressure on girls to feel like they have to dress in a certain way because men can't control themselves. Men are visual creatures and I get that, but they have a responsibility to control that. If a woman dresses immodestly and a man takes advantage of her, is that her fault?"

This concept of dressing modestly because men can't control their sexual appetite has always bothered me. I was sexually abused by my friends father at age 9. I already thought it was my fault and never told my parents until I was an adult. When I began dating at 16 my mother told me that boys couldn't control their sexual desires and that it was my responsibility to stop them. Her comment really affected me as she had just confirmed what I already believed about the abuse being my fault. This took a lot of therapy to undo.

What are your thoughts? Do you yourself dress "immodestly" according to Mormon standards or do you let your daughters dress "immodestly?" Why or why not?

I suppose I dress "immodestly" to Mormon standards at times because it's MY body and I'll dress however I want to. NO ONE has the right to rape anyone based on their clothes. A rapist is a rapist is a rapist. Period.

And rape is not an act of sex, it's an act of violence. But women still get blamed for it.

Carol

I agree with you. That video was horrible. When DH & I were on our honeymoon near Cancun, we went for a walk on the beach one morning and right next door to us was an Italian club. Everyone outside was on the beach playing volleyball - topless. There were women there from age 3 to 80 something - all topless. There were many hunky guys too and no one was staring or gawking or getting their swimsuits in a bunch. They were playing volleyball. After we walked by, DH turned to me and said "I did not stare at that 16 year old's boobs. Made me laugh. Americans need to get over the naked body thing. We have friends who have been to nude beaches in Europe and it is no big deal. Why are we so uptight over human bodies?

BTW I think there are plenty of women out there who wouldn't be so freaked out about having someone see them in their underwear. It's that guy on the video who would be freaked out to have someone see him in HIS underwear.

Carol

pics?

There's a lot of repressed mormon boys reading this.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 12:22PM by diablo.

As a woman, I have mixed feelings about the general topic. I certainly think that boys should be raised to understand that they are responsible for their own bodies and what they do with them.

But then I know as a woman, that I don't walk alone late at night because I'm afraid that I would be putting myself at risk. Maybe I'm just jealous of women who don't have the same fears that I do.

But when it comes to a bikini, there should be only one rule and that has nothing to do with religious beliefs. Many women should not wear a bikini because they are very unflattering to all but the most "model perfect" bodies.

The deciding factor should be the mirror.

If it helps to know the statistics, you have a higher probability of dying of heart disease than you do of being raped.
(the one in four statistic has been debunked over and over again since it was first posited. I'ts closer to one in ten, even on college campuses.)
Just knowing that helped me to get over the "Charlie is everywhere!" PTSD.

To the OP: I say if god really wanted me to be ashamed of my body, he shouldn't have done such a good job in designing it. It does everything I need it to do, and it looks great while it does it. If other people don't like it, they can take it up with god.

Actually, the 1:4 stat is accurate for sexual assault, not all of which is rape. When I still worked for the DoD, I had a soldier back me into a corner and commit frottage. It was not rape, but it was a sexual assault.

And, in case anyone thinks that the problems with sexual assault in the military being covered up are false? *I* was written up for telling him to get his moronic fucking ass off of me. Yep, *I* got in trouble for reporting him. When he went into my supervisor's office for something, she loudly asked "Oh, Sergeant O., is you comin' in here to sexually harrass me?" and they laughed uproariously.

When that soldier retired, the unit JAG officer came to my desk with the unit's file copy of my letter of reprimand and tore it up in front of me, saying "This bullshit never happened."

Holy sh*t, are you kidding me? This makes my blood boil! Unbelievable.

I wish I were making it up. The entire leadership of that unit condoned so many improprieties that it was ridiculous. And, since the assault against me happened in the building, the military had jurisdiction (as opposed to local law enforcement). So, the whole thing got swept under the rug except for writing me up. The JAG officer was livid about the whole thing, needless to say. "How can we say we have zero tolerance for this behavior when we write up the *victim,*" is what he said that he told the unit commander ... who ordered him to do it.

He started actively seeking another billet at that point. He was a good guy, but pretty much the whole rest of the unit was either corrupt or terrified to speak up for fear of being victimized themselves. It was horrid.

I still have nightmares about working there, and it's been 15 years since I left. :-(

I went to lunch once with 4 young women where I worked. One of our colleagues was in the hospital, having had an intruder break into her home, only to stab and rape her (in her shower...is that too awful or what?).

Anyway, it got us talking about more personal things than usual and ended up with a count...out of the five of us, four had been molested and/or raped. Two date rapes, one stranger rape at gunpoint. The other cases were molestation of varying degrees.

Talk to any group of women (and, increasingly, men are starting to talk about it, too) and you'll find that 1 in 10 is NO WHERE CLOSE to the actual numbers.

Are you sure you didn't get your statistics flipped, happyholly? Maybe one in ten women HAS NOT been assaulted.

I think the 1 in 4 is low. For every one women raped/moltested there are 2 or 3 stories of "Then I got a really bad feeling, and KNEW I had to run/vomit/lie to escape."

Or the common "I was tipsy/sad/sick/weak and we had sex. I didn't want to, and kept pushing him away and saying no... but maybe he was trying to comfort me. Was I raped? Maybe."

And the most common story of all: "X happened, and I never told anyone for years."

Mormon standards have gotten weirder over the years. In the sixties good Mormon girls wore sleeveless clothes without a second thought. Sleeveless was something you gave up when you went to the temple.

If you make women responsible for the behavior of men you end up with women in Burkas. And even that doesn't work. Burka wearing women get raped too. That being said, just because you have a right to dress any way you want doesn't mean you shouldn't take responsibility for your own safety.

I think women should wear what they want as long as they take into consideration the place and time. Bikini at the pool or beach, yes. Bikini at the PTA meeting, no.

As for who should wear a bikini based on how they look in it, that's pretty subjective. I'm old and flabby and won't take off my cover up (the one that covers my shirred and ruffled one piecer) until my feet are in the water, but if some other pudgy old lady likes her body enough to let it all hang out, I say, "You go girl".

releve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> If you make women responsible for the behavior of
> men you end up with women in Burkas. And even
> that doesn't work. Burka wearing women get raped
> too.

+1,000 You don't need to do much digging to find out how high the incidences of rape and incest are in strict Muslim countries. In Iran, for example (where women have to wear hijab by law, albeit not burkas), the rate of gang rape in particular is extremely high.

In Egypt, sexual harassment of women in cities is epidemic. The BBC ran a story on this a year or two ago, and the women who wore extremely modest Islamic dress reported just as much harassment as did women who dressed in more modern clothes. If women walk alone, or only with other women, they are harassed, end of story, no matter how they're dressed.

For an insight into rape and exploitation of women and girls in an even stricter Muslim country, read "The Bookseller of Kabul."

In other words...clothes have NOTHING to do with rape and sexual exploitation. The only problem in my view a girl or woman faces if she wears more revealing, even "slutty" clothes, is that if she IS raped, she will be that much more likely to be blamed for it.

Christian and mormon women should wear whatever they damn well please.

+1. Shouldn't even have to be debated.

not only bikinis but they should be transparent bikinis

The whole concept of modesty is so misanthropic.

It reduces women's bodies to vehicles of purely sex. Shoulders aren't used for connecting the arms and torso to the neck. Legs aren't used for walking, kicking, swimming, bicycling, lifting, etc. Torsos aren't used for holding vital organs. They are all there to be FILTHY and to TEMPT MEN.

It reduces men to drooling morons that don't have any control over their thoughts and actions - women in tank tops should be afraid of Night at the Roxbury type reactions.

I don't have a perfect body, but I just ordered a bikini. Figure I have a few years of bikini wearing ahead of me.

This was my biggest problem with the church. That I had to dress a certain way because "men will have lustful thoughts." My sis use to say, "so, they will have lustful thoughts if you wear a garbage bag." It always bothered me they could dress completely normal for their gender but I could not.

NO ONE has a "perfect body." You rock that bikini, and you will look fabulous.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 05:25PM by tapirsaddle.

No woman should wear a bikini, whether they are religious or not...In fact, they should not wear anything at all, especially if I am in the direct viewing area:)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 10:55PM by orange.

I sometimes wish there were a gang of Gay bikers we could hire to show up and have there way with guys who teach this idea.

"How dare you strut around in that tailored suit and perfect haircut with those broad shoulders and perfect teeth! You are just asking for it!"

Try to find anything in the New Testament about modesty. Nope...nothing.

The objective fact is that the lowest amount of rape is found in African tribes where nakedness, both sexes, is a daily event.

The problem in America is that not enough people are naked. If you have ab beach with all ages buck naked, it is the best cure for sexual problems ever. You see the body in its true state of very temporary attractiveness.

The presence of the naked elderly is a balancing reminder that someday the crown jewels will drag the ground swinging in unison with his wife's breasts bouncing around at waist level.

Imagine how wonderful it would be. No more porn addictions, no more compulsive masturbating, no more peeking, stealing underwear, no more fashion, no more clotheshorse races.

No more bras, no more spanks, no more nylons or worries about modesty. No more anorexia and body anxiety. Everybody's good.

Maybe that's what the Celestial Kingdom is all about-- after all, aren't they just wearing robes and nothing underneath anyway?


Anagrammy

I have a very religious friend who thinks that in the celestial kingdom, when man is no longer a carnal being, everyone will be naked.

My husband and I have been known to frequent nudist resorts from time to time and to hang out with friends nude or at least topless. After awhile, the body parts that are usually covered end up being less important and less sexual.

We're so uptight about nudity it's just insane.

And that word -- "modesty" -- drives me insane.

Okay, I have another story to tell on myself. Many years ago, a guy I was dating took me to a clothing-optional resort in Northern California. I figured everyone was going to be Ken and Barbie hardbody, and that wasn't me. I wore a one-piece bathing suit. I got far more prurient attention because I was covered up than the folks who were nude -- only one of whom was Ken Hardbody. (And I really only noticed him because he asked me about the book I was reading poolside.)

So, yes. Where nudity is commonplace, no one thinks boo about it.

Just a PSA...

Like most women, I have never, ever, ever even glanced at a man in a lustful way at the beach. I've never noticed their muscular toned and tanned physiques glisten in the hot sun, how their hamstring muscles flex and move in time with the two taunt round globes in the back of their shorts or how the hair on their lower torso steers your eyes down into their budgie smugglers.

Nope, never noticed a thing. Never caused a weakness in my knees, a stirring in my loins, dampness in my knickers or one single naughty thought.

Therefore - it is 100% a-ok for men to wonder around in next to nothing. Thank you.

Religions created the taboo of being naked. We already went through the 60's sexual revolution, so why are there so many people still worried about their privates? Ok, now I am horny...where did I put my National Geographic magazine stash....

Women should be able to wear what they are comfortable in.

In the summer, I am constantly in short jean shorts and tank tops. I wear a bikini to the beach, lake, etc.

Women deserve to not be thrown into the blame the victim mindset.

Also to the poster who made the comment about certain women not wearing a bikini. I think it should be every woman's individual choice. If she feels good it in then who gives a shit what others think. You are perpetuating the hate and self confidence issues that many women get towards their bodies. Stop it.

Wearing a bikini is a sign of confidence. It means one has a figure to be proud of. After my DW and I were married (and before being LDS) I got her to wear a bikini on a beach (not a very crowded one) and it helped make her more confident in her body, even showing the marks from two births. I treasure the picture.

If they have the bodies for them, and like showing off or want to get a good tan then yes. Who cares what their old superstitions have to say on the matter.

I never hear about nudist having problems.

every time I have to spend 20 minutes at work pinning an underskirt to a tablecloth because we can't find enough plastic clips with velcro I curse the Victorians.