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Posted by: procrusteanchurch ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 09:32AM

how do you make it work?

The dynamics of my marriage have certainly changed since I informed my wife almost a year ago that I didn't believe the church was true. This morning it struck me hard that I've been in a hotel for almost a week while attending a professional conference, and I'm not eager to go home tomorrow. It used to be that I could hardly stand to be away from my family for more than a night or two. Unfortunately, now it's a bit of a relief to get away from the constant tension that exists due to differences in belief between my wife and me.

I'm certainly not satisfied with the state of my marriage, and I want it to improve. Unfortunately, the church was the foundation of our marriage (I know, that sounds pathetic), so my loss of faith in the church has inevitably had a significant impact on our relationship. For those of you who are married to a tbm, I would appreciate your insights on how to make a marriage work in spite of differences in belief.

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Posted by: freebird ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 10:05AM

I have made it work so far. I love my DH very, very much and I have been through a lot with him, so I won't leave him over this. The past few years I stopped going to church and recently I told him that I don't believe any of it and why and I told him I don't want our son baptized. He took it very well.

I know he has doubts. I just try to tell him what I learn. The Jesus mall, tithing in order to go to the temple and to baptize your own child, the sword of fire that the angel came down from heaven with and threatened JS to institute polygamy or die. My husband is a rational man. Also he's frugal and I use that to my advantage. I harp on the tithing. I'll say things like,"so it will cost us $3600 to baptize our son?" (Just throwing out a number. 10% of salary paid monthly for the 6 months prior to baptism. I just made up arbitrary sum)

This really works on him. Try to see what are the weaknesses in your wife's Mormon suit of amour and then chisel away at those weaknesses. Maybe she is a closet feminist or had feminist leanings she's stuffed deep inside. Bring out how male dominated TSCC is. Or maybe she's frugal too.

Good luck! I wish you the best!

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Posted by: freebird ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 10:11AM

Sorry I guess I didn't quite answer what you asked. I have been able to make it work by allowing him his set of beliefs. If he wants to go to church every Sunday that is ok. But I don't want to have the missionaries over, I don't want a VT and I won't be going.

I try to meet him halfway. If he really wants his HT to come over, I'll participate and be pleasant. They know I'm inactive.

You have to decide where your boundaries are. Will you attend church or not? Will you allow HT in or not? Honestly your wife is going to become an outcast. A woman without her husband is at the bottom of the Mormon hierarchy. She's not going to fit in anymore and she's going to start feeling uncomfortable which could cause her to demand you come back or possibly cause her to become disillusioned.

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Posted by: procrusteanchurch ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 11:00AM

Thanks for your insights charpop705

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 10:14AM

Mine plods along. Does this mean success? Please, all who know, tell me.

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Posted by: snuckafoodberry ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 10:46AM

I plod along also. Day by day, on Sundays hour by hour. I keep my mouth shut a lot. My disbelief has rolled over into my politics making me even more separate. I look for any signs of doubt. I lay in waiting for signs.
Rather than viewing myself as the outsider I have practiced the idea that this is my life and it's up to my family if they want to be a part of it. The nicest thing my husband acknowledged recently was to say "If you were Mormon you definitely do your good works". So he acknowledged I do good works without Mormonism. That is as close as I've gotten to getting him to think outside the church mind set.
Yeah, I have no advice. I'm not a good example, really, of making it work. In fact, sometimes I entertain ending my marriage. I just have too much invested in it with my daughter as well as financially and don't want to split it all up.

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Posted by: freebird ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 11:02AM

I'm happy he acknowledged that. That's pretty big! Mormons tend to think that only Mormons do good and even then it's only because of the church. So for him to recognize your efforts and good work is really significant to me.

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Posted by: procrusteanchurch ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 11:09AM

Cludgie describes it perfectly with "plods along". It's not the type of marriage I want, but it's where I'm at too. I'd like to get back to the days when I would be excited each day to see my wife when I'd get home from work. Now I take a deep breath and steel myself for what is coming before I open the door to our home.

Like you, Snuckafoodberry, I try to keep my mouth shut just to keep things from getting worse. It is hard a lot of the time, especially when I see how my wife's calling wears her down (she's in the RS presidency). I think she'd be happier without the church, but things blow up if I even hint at this.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 11:15AM

I posted my essay (updated) on the subject of how I stayed married to a believer.
Maybe you can find an idea or two that will work for you.
Everyone is so different, and their relationships are in such different places.
My hope is that you can work it out.

This is the link from the board:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,916398

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Posted by: procrusteanchurch ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 11:23AM

Thanks for sharing your experience SusieQ#1. My condolences on the passing of your husband, and congratulations for making things work out after you left the church. Out of curiosity, what was the "Man in the Restroom" story?

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 11:39AM

mike222 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for sharing your experience SusieQ#1. My
> condolences on the passing of your husband, and
> congratulations for making things work out after
> you left the church. Out of curiosity, what was
> the "Man in the Restroom" story?


Thank you for your kind words.

I'll hunt up the story of the Man in the WOMAN's restroom and post it .. again. It's a real doozie! :-)

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Posted by: puff the magic dragon ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 11:16AM

Mike....have you told her about your feelings? I think that would help. Let her know that you are not excited to come home to her and that maybe you should find some common interests to do together. The longer you wait, the harder it will be. I didn't have patience with my husband. He was acting and doing weird things financially after I left the church. One day I finally had it and laid it out on the line. And he left the church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 11:17AM by puff the magic dragon.

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Posted by: procrusteanchurch ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 11:28AM

Talking about feelings definitely is not my forte, but I put myself out there when I told my wife about my lack of testimony. That didn't go so well, but maybe a discussion about our relationship would go better. I'll have to give it some thought, but it's probably worth a try. Thanks puff the magic dragon.

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Posted by: herwayorthehighway ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 11:17AM

You can do like me..after decades of a good marriage and raising children I finally told my dear wife my doubts.
Shortly after that talk a strange man showed up late at night on my porch and said...


you've been served by your wife....sign here!

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Posted by: Brainfrees ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 11:23AM

Just had our anniversary (between 15 and 20). Was so depressing. I couldn't shake it. Just faked it.

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Posted by: AngelCowgirl ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 11:29AM

I left the church almost 3 years ago and my husband is still very TBM. In fact, he seems to have dug his heels in even deeper as if to make up for my lack. I decided early on that I loved him and wanted to stay in the marriage, and told him so. I told him that I respect his Article of Faith that allows him to worship who and what he wishes, and that I expected the same from him. He verbally acknowledged this and supposedly agreed.

It has been hell since then, with him doing everything he can to act disappointed in me. I have outright asked if he wants a divorce and he says no, but his actions prove otherwise. It seems as if -- in typical Mormon fashion -- the respect only goes one way. They will demand it from you, but do not feel obligated to return it. If you call them on it, they get defensive and passive-aggressive.

If you and your spouse have more in common than just the religion, AND you can both agree to respect one another's freedom to belief as they choose, you have a chance of making it work.
However, if your spouse married you to fill a role, s/he is in love with the role and not you as an individual... and once you are no longer filling that role, you are doomed.

Only you can determine if your marriage falls in this category. Best of luck and I wish you well. :-)

Edited to add: You need to be aware that the dynamics will forever be skewed. For example, my TBM spouse is convinced that any trials I have are due to my apostasy and therefore is extremely unsympathetic and unhelpful. If anything breaks, it's because I didn't pay my tithing. Etc. Is this "plodding along"? Yes. Do I recommend it? Not on your life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 11:34AM by AngelCowgirl.

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Posted by: Other Than ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 02:09PM

> Edited to add: You need to be aware that the dynamics will forever be skewed. For example, my TBM spouse is convinced that any trials I have are due to my apostasy and therefore is extremely unsympathetic and unhelpful. If anything breaks, it's because I didn't pay my tithing.

Man, I would have so much fun with that! "Hey Honey, Look! God broke another dish!" "Wow, God is being a real bastard today, I can't find any parking!" "Good thing God is busy punishing us and not saving all those kids from starvation. That's priorities for ya!"

Absurdity is so much fun to throw back in people's faces. Might get them to think a little too.

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Posted by: bvd ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 11:33AM

Mike, I'm in the same boat. But when I stopped going a few years ago, my wife said don't make me choose between you or the church, cuz the church will win. The church was a huge reason why I got married. I found a good looking mormon girl, we became friends and had a lot of fun and she fell in love with me. I thought since I've dated so much with a lot of failure, and finally a pretty girl loves me then why not? I thought I could grow to love her, which is true, I do love her, but I've never felt "in love". After all, I was finding my eternal mate, getting to have sex and being a good mormon return missionary and pulling myself out of the dating pool. After knowing each other for only a couple months we decided to get married. It has been good for the most part, but when I stopped going to TSCC it was real rough for a couple of years. We almost split but I decided to stay for the kids. The hard part for me is she can talk about her beliefs all she wants, preach churchy stuff to me, talk about church lessons etc. but if I say anything bad/negative/true about anything mormon she doesn't agree with the freaking monster inside her comes out. So I just shut up and don't say/do anything against mormon beliefs for the sake of my marriage. Since I've stopped going, I have to hide to my family who I really am. If I tried to be my authentic self she would leave and take the kids. She got hint once that I was thinking about removing my name from the church and the shit hit the fan! So for me it's a choice of do I want to be with my kids in this marriage that I know was based on a false foundation or not. If it weren't for the kids, I'd of been gone a few years ago. It's tough! It's gotten to the point of where I'm so tired of playing the game I contemplate if its worth crushing my kids hearts and leaving or not. So far no because I'm still married but I guess only time will tell. I'm still friends with my wife, which makes it easier, but that is only because of the effort on my part to hide my true self/feelings. Feel free to get my email from the admin if you'd like to chat. It's a horrible situation to be in and I don't wish it on anybody. It's sad to say this, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who experiences this.

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Posted by: snuckafoodberry ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 11:43AM

I call that "monster" the Mormon demon. Don't they get EVIL? If you say something negative about the church? Almost like they turn into a salivating green troll. The scary face on the back of their heads that you don't see until they turn around. Then the green troll gets put back away and they carry on as usual like nothing ever happened.

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Posted by: procrusteanchurch ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 01:39PM

I understand what you mean bvd. I don't want others to suffer too, but somehow it is comforting to know that others share the same struggle and can understand. Best of luck to you in dealing with your situation.

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Posted by: Other Than ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 02:15PM

Why aren't you motivated to protect your kids from the church? You know the damage it does. Why give up on getting your kids out?

I don't understand this position. If you are staying quiet for the family, how does that ever help your kids? Help them by helping them see the problems with the church! Give them a role model of standing up for what is right.

And never give that amount of power to your wife! Now you're modeling weakness and your kids are learning it whether you realize it or not. Do you want them to be like you to their spouses? Afraid and submissive? That's the marriage you're modeling to them right now. And they see it, no matter how much you think you're hiding it.

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 11:35AM

It's been a huge roller coaster ride - I'm about 2 years into it and there have been some dark, difficult times.

Maybe we've made some progress though because I'm also traveling this week and am immensely looking forward to returning home to my wife.

I guess the only advice I have is try to minimize the impact that the difference in religion has on your relationship and try to maximize emphasis on the parts of your relationship that can still work and bring you together.

It's difficult because there is a lack of intimacy by having this huge part of our life that we don't share. But it also has the foundation of potentially a very healthy relationship, I think. It's a process of allowing each other space in some areas to each do and think your own thing and being very close and enjoying each other in the aspects that you share - really that probably is the ultimately ideal marriage.

I know for us much of that loss of closeness has had a lot to do with pain on both sides and reticence to risk more of it. She has gone through major painful mourning that the fairy tale happily ever after eternal marriage to a righteous priesthood holder isn't what she got. I've had a lot of pain that no matter what I do I will never be the prince charming from her fairy tale. Part of the answer may be that this just takes some time to work through.

On the other hand I feel like she is finally married to me as a person not just a role. This has been very positive in many ways.

We are within meeting distance of each other - if you like we can always get together in person and discuss this or at least commiserate.

If you want to try to reconnect with her - if you are emotionally ready to take the risk of rejection and pain the books the 5 love languages or light her fire provide excellent models of how to approach it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 11:47AM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

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Posted by: procrusteanchurch ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 12:23PM

Thanks for the offer to meet. I just sent an e-mail to you.

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Posted by: gracewarrior ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 11:44AM

I am going through the same thing. Sometimes, I feel like my marriage is hanging by a thread. However, I have made the decision to be my authentic self. I am trying to be authentic more and more to my TBM family too. After a while, you'll get sick of the act.

My attitude with my marriage is, if it works...it works.. If not, I'll live.. but I am not going to sacrifice my own self on the alter of Mormonism.

BVD- You have to be yourself my friend. At some point you may be forced to take a stand for what you believe in. You may have to throw caution to the wind in that moment. BUT, it will feel so good being yourself.

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Posted by: bvd ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 12:01PM

Yes, I know I have to be myself, not ready for that step quite yet. Thanks for the advice. I seriously feel like I'm drowning,and can see through the surface of the water to safety...

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Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 11:54AM

This comes up so often on the board I wrote this a couple of years ago. You may find something useful in it.

Making Marriage Work for Ex-Mormon/Mormon Couples
by Robert Baumgardner, M.A., LMFT

I have been a casual observer of mixed religious marriages of former or unbelieving Mormons through an e-mail list and discussion board for former and unbelieving Mormons. It appears to me that unrecognized couples development issues underlie these religious struggles. In fact, from this perspective, mixed marriage couples have two tasks, each related to the other: individuating within the couple relationship while individuating from Mormonism.

In Quest of the Mythical Mate, by psychotherapists Ellyn Bader and Peter T. Pearson, provides a developmental model for couple relationships based on the concept that, like individuals, develop from a state of symbiosis toward a fully developed state of interdependence. The process may take years, and if successful, its culmination is characterized by partners who are able to participate fully as themselves in the world while relating intimately with one another.

Summary of Bader and Pearson’s Developmental Model

Symbiotic Stage

According to Bader and Pearson’s model couple relationships begin with Symbiosis. The purpose of this stage is to bond, creating a couple relationship based on the feeling and perception of “oneness.” It is characterized by “falling in love,” the merging of personalities, and intense bonding. As anyone who has fallen in love knows this stage feels wonderfully good and exciting. The lovers magnify similarities and overlook differences and are capable of deep passion and mutual giving. If all goes well, the individuals become a couple. (Bader and Pearson p. 9.) Challenges at this stage may include loss of identity, fear of abandonment, and fear of engulfment. Recognition and expression of differences may arouse anxiety and interactions may focus on masking them. (Bader and Pearson pp. 244-245)

Within Mormonism, “oneness” is highly valued, with oneness meaning observant Mormons are ideally in complete agreement and compliance with LDS teaching and practice. Dissonance is discouraged and sometimes punished with expulsion from the group. Because the Mormon ideal is to live as family units in the afterlife, failure to fulfill Mormon ideals is a serious issue for believers. LDS psychotherapist Marybeth Raynes insightfully describes this expectation of similarity and some of its consequences:

"With a strong emphasis in the Church on finding a right and wrong way for everything, identical religious thought and action between marriage partners is encouraged. Where there are differences, one spouse must be wrong. Ironically, any church that has many criteria for goodness sets up as many points for conflict as for congruency. (This is true generally: the more areas two or more people want to share, the more areas for potential disagreement emerge. This is why friendships often work better than marriages; we sharply limit the number of concerns which overlap with our friends and often become really close to only those with whom we agree.) We may be unwittingly sharpening a double-edged sword as we increase the number of rituals and programs a couple must share as a condition for a happy marriage." (Raynes, Marybeth. Issues of Intimacy: A Mixed Religious Marriage, Sunstone Magazine, March 1985, p. 40.)

Differentiation

Once the ecstasy of the Symbiotic Stage begins to diminish, the partners begin to see the relationship more objectively and they enter the Differentiation Stage. In the Differentiation Stage, the partners begin to reassert individual boundaries. Partners notice differences and may want to have time alone. At this point, if differentiation happens suddenly or cannot be tolerated by one or both partners, the relationship may end. (Bader and Pearson p. 10) Often one partner begins to differentiate before the other. Challenges at this stage may include the symbiotic partner feeling betrayed and threatened as the other partner begins to differentiate. The differentiating partner may feel guilty for the perceived betrayal and anger at the lack of recognition and acceptance of difference. (Bader and Pearson pp. 246-247)

For Mormon couples, conflicts can arise when a partner individuates from the Mormon faith as well as from the partner. Depending on the degree and kind of change, as well as the believing partner’s own views and needs, he or she may feel loss and threat on several levels: personal, familial, social, and existential. Some believing partners may feel betrayed, having entered into the marriage with the understanding that the integrity of the marriage is guaranteed by a shared belief and commitment to Mormonism. The questioning of that belief and commitment may call the marriage into question as well as the integrity of the less-believing or non-believing partner.

Practicing

As differentiation proceeds, the couple enters the Practicing Stage. At this point, partners turn energy away from the relationship and toward their own needs and toward their own interests in the outside world. The defining characteristic of this stage is “I want to be me!” The partners are busy discovering themselves as individuals. They are less attuned to their partner and the relationship. Partners may become self-centered and concerned with their personal power. This stage is marked by conflict. Successful conflict resolution and negotiation skills are needed to maintain the relationship. (Bader and Pearson p. 11) Challenges at this stage are successful conflict management and maintaining empathy and emotional connection. The danger at this stage is irreparable damage to the relationship or its loss. (Bader and Pearson pp. 248-249)

For the questioning or former Mormon, this phase not only entails turning energy to other interests but can and often does entail a transformation of identity, world view, and changes in affiliation and social status. The believing partner may at this time feel frightened and betrayed and also experience an unwelcome change in status within his or her ward due to the partner’s changes. The non-believing partner may also feel afraid of losing his or her family and friends and may treat the process of change as a battle that has to be won against the partner and social community. He or she may forget that being himself or herself also entails a commitment to allow the partner to also be himself or herself, however the partner defines that, if the relationship is to survive. Because differentiation is hard-won, sometimes at great personal and social cost, a partner who is or appears to be opposing change may be quickly defined as “the enemy.”

Each partner may also seek and find sources of personal support in increased church activity or in affiliation with groups critical of Mormonism. While this move is natural and may be helpful for the individual partner, the danger is the couple will feel not only that they have little in common, but they become proxies for conflicting ideologies. Battling over ideological issues can quickly obscure and destroy the deeply personal and vital elements of friendship that underlie and support intimacy and commitment to the relationship.

To prevent or lessen the tendency to define the believing partner as “the enemy” it may be helpful for the couple to set aside or “bracket” religious issues for an agreed-upon time while working on the conflict management skills and to build their “marital friendship.”
Two sets of conflict management skills are essential: The couple needs avoid behavior destructive to the relationship, especially contempt, criticism (as opposed to complaint), defensiveness, and stonewalling (“the silent treatment”). At the same time, the couple needs to recognize, develop, and use repair skills during and after conflicts to reaffirm commitment to the partner and the relationship.

Rapprochement

If things have gone well and the couple has maintained their friendship and each has developed a secure sense of identity, there is a shift again in the relationship towards intimacy and vulnerability while at the same time each partner maintains an independent identity. The relationship holds a balance between "I" and "We." Partners nurture one another consistently and are able to negotiate changes with little threat to the relationship. They can give to one another when it is inconvenient without feeling put upon. (Bader and Pearson pp. 11, 250) Challenges in this stage include finding the right balance between the needs of the individuals and the needs of the relationship. Over-compromise is the main temptation, as the cessation of conflict is pleasant. However, stress comes mainly from outside the relationship rather than from within it. (Bader and Pearson p. 250)

An issue faced by many ex-Mormons is having established a separate identity, sometimes at great cost in personal relationships and social standing, how much can be compromised for the beliefs of the partner and still maintain a sense of identity and integrity? The believing partner, of course, has the same issue. Ideally, in day-to-day practice, the couple develops mutually acceptable ways of addressing the issues presented to them by both the Mormon and non-Mormon world. The challenge is not only to avoid over-compromise but to avoid becoming engaged in ideological battles when new issues arise.

The couple will also need to recognize that every long-term, intimate relationship includes intractable problems that can be managed but not resolved. John Gottman’s work, again, provides practical research-based information and exercises for doing this, such as postponing problem-solving, taking turns talking about one another’s dreams within conflicts, looking for areas of flexibility where couples can work together, and supporting spouses’ dreams to the degree possible. (Gottman, Ten Lessons to Transform Your Marriage, chapter 5)

Mutual Interdependence

At this stage, the relationship each partner relates more fully to both the outside world and to one another, secure in the knowledge and experienced of being loved and accepted for themselves. The partners are able to reconcile the ideal and perfect with the real. They reach a stage of mutual interdependence in which two mature people relate from the basis of growth, shared interest, vulnerability, and love rather than need. (Bader and Pearson pp. 11-12.)

At this point the couple will have consciously determined how and how much of a role Mormonism will play in their relationship as a couple and for each of them as individuals. They will have largely reconciled the ideal and perfect with the real and the possible. The enjoyment of particular individuals committed to one another will take precedence over commitments to ideologies and fantasies of what “should be.”

A Few Recommendations

Realize that couples relationships evolve and change, and some conflict is expected in the process. Often one partner will be in the position of changing and the other in the position of trying to “catch up.” Conflict does not mean one partner is bad and the other is good or that one is necessarily right and the other wrong.

Find and focus on areas of agreement and mutual interest. Keep communication open and as much as is honestly possible, emphasize what is working, what is positive, and what you appreciate. Satisfying marriages have a positive to negative communication ratio of 5:1.

Articulate disagreement as complaints rather than criticisms. Criticisms attack character, whether of your partner or of your partner’s belief system. Complaints focus on behaviors and actions rather than character. Ideally, a complaint could (and would) be presented as a request for positive action (a request to do a different behavior rather than a request to stop a behavior).

Focus on working through differences and creating situations that work for the both of you rather than fighting about “who is right.” Beware of becoming a proxy for ideological positions, whether “Mormon” or “Ex-Mormon.”

When you recognize you are stuck or gridlocked as a couple on an issue, set aside the question of who is right and look at how you are communicating rather than what you are communicating. It can be helpful to agree to set aside a particular issue for a mutually agreed upon amount of time to work on aspects of the relationship that are working.

When you do return to a difficult issue, listen closely and ask your partner about the underlying dream the issue represents. You may find you can support aspects of your partner’s dream while at the same time recognizing you do not share the entire dream or your partner’s methods of fulfilling it.

I highly recommend obtaining a copy of Ten Lessons to Transform Your Marriage, by John Gottman, Ph.D. It is very readable and practical, and it is based on empirical research with thousands of couples. Dr. Gottman addresses the issue of what to do with intractable issues, such as those ex-Mormon/Mormon couples face (although he does not address Mormonism itself).

If you and your partner are talking about divorce or splitting up, seriously consider making an appointment with a relationship counselor you both can agree upon. Get recommendations from other people who have had good experiences working with a counselor on similar issues. The most important quality of a counselor is you both feel comfortable with the counselor and he or she is interested in helping work through your problems on your own terms.

Conclusion

Viewing relationship through a developmental lens provides a perspective that change and conflict are inherent in couple relationships is not fault of either partner. When one partner is committed to Mormonism and the other is the process of questioning and rejecting it to a greater or a lesser degree, the issues of individuation and the possibility for break-up may be acute. By becoming educated about how relationships develop, about conflict management, and about specific issues presented by the Mormon belief and lifestyle, I hope ex-Mormons and their partners will divorce less often and experience greater satisfaction in their relationships.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 12:09PM by robertb.

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 11:58AM

Robert - thankyou for re-posting this. This was quite helpful to me when I first read it. In my post above I was describing somewhat of the same process. Basically the rift in religion, in some ways, pushes you towards the "Mutual Interdependence" stage. Because you have to learn to let that difference go - to each give each other their own space to do a believe their own thing in that area, but then come back together in other areas.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 11:58AM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

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Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 12:07PM

You make a good succinct summary, BC. Mormonism requires so much conformity that it is hard to imagine a good relationship includes difference as well as similarity.

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Posted by: mysid ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 12:18PM

I think the issue that most needs to be addressed is your statement, "The church was the foundation of our marriage." Assuming that you want to stay married, you need to work with you wife to build a new foundation.

Communication is key in a marriage, so tell your wife your concerns. Sit down with her after the kids are in bed (or if she's always too tired for a discussion then, arrange for a babysitter to watch the kids for a while one afternoon while the two of you go for a walk). Tell her that you know your changing beliefs are straining the marriage, but that you still love her, want to be married to her, and you want to work with her to strengthen your marriage. Undoubtedly, she has concerns as well, and hopefully she will share them with you.

One thing you may want to try, setting aside one evening a week as "date night" so you can reconnect as a couple. (My aunt and uncle recommended that to every couple they knew, and they are very happily married after 40+ years. When their kids were small, date night was sometimes a candlelit dinner in their own kitchen after the kids were asleep.) Allow her to talk about church-related stuff on date night--if she's a SAHM, the church and the kids are all she has to talk about--but she isn't allowed to criticize your non-attendance or non-belief on date night.

One thing you may need to try, marriage counseling. Your marriage was built on a shaky foundation to start, and now it is going through a major crisis. A licensed marriage counselor may help you rebuild your relationship stronger.

Good luck!

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Posted by: WakingUpVegas ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 12:42PM

I've been doing this about two years now. There have been some rough spots, but overall, things have improved. I had a hard time for awhile, because I would want to tell DH things about the church that bothered me, and he didn't want to hear it. I told him eventually that I was really struggling having to censure myself around him, so now he listens. At the same time, I want to respect his beliefs, so I tell him things in really small doses.

Is there any aspect about the church you know bothers your wife? I knew even before we went inactive that DH was overwhelmed by multiple callings, and he hated being hit up for more money all the time. I've used that to my advantage, and now DH sees the church maybe isn't as family friendly. I work in news, so we're actually at the point where he's seeing how shady the church PR department is, and how they use spin control.

At the same time, I know DH highly respects the church for the service work it does, so if he ever wants to go help someone out with moving or a project, I try to encourage him. Since we don't pay tithing anymore, we look for charitable ways to donate money.

It's hard to keep the peace sometimes, but compromise goes a long way.

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Posted by: bizquick ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 01:26PM

how do you make it work?

She doesn't know the full extent of my disaffection. I still attend church, pay tithing, and serve in my calling (Ward Finance Clerk). I have never been a religious person, she knew this when she married me. I have raised some concerns, but keep things low-key. I'm not trying to deconvert her, I just mention things that bother me and then move on to another subject.

Like most women she hates polygamy, so I bring that up and we discuss it. Polyandry was an interesting discussion. I've mentioned the BoA translation issues briefly, I could see she didn't want to discuss it, so I dropped it. She does have a hard time with the time commitments, so I bring that up and remind her not to feel guilty about making time for her calling, a temple visit, VT, etc. We are a young busy family, we can't do everything and family should come first.

I tread lightly. If she leaves...it will be because she can't relate to people in the ward (we are in a much older ward and the few younger couples are odd/not friend material) and is tired of all the time commitments, then she'll seek the truth and get blown away.

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Posted by: WakingUpVegas ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 01:46PM

I think the church is doing a lot of the dirty work for us with all the ridiculous time commitments it puts on its members. DH's last callings were Young Men's first counselor AND Cub Scout leader. That meant two nights a week at church, and almost no weekends off, because he was always with the YM or Scouts. He about lost it once on the ward cleaning scheduler, because he finally had a free Saturday and they wanted us to scrub toilets.

So take these stressed out members, and feed them tiny nuggets of uncomfortable info about the church they're killing themselves to serve, and with luck, the lightbulb turns on. It's taken awhile in my case, but DH is slowly realizing the church isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Still be supportive so you don't become the evil spouse that bans the other from church, but like you said, tell them it's okay to say no. Sometimes that's all a person needs to hear.

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Posted by: rationalguy ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 01:54PM

I am in that situation. When I gained my insight DW was upset for a while. She talked to the bishop, sicced some high preists on me to "cure" me, etc. I know the bishop and he's a good guy. He told her to work on the marriage (I guess that's a bit of blaming her in a way, totally unfair.) I think he rather meant that "showing forth an increase of love" was her only good option.

I do believe leaders have recently been told not to encourage break-ups between couples having no other issues except a "loss of faith" by one spouse... sort of a reversal of past practice.

I am purposely also showing an increase of love and respect. At our age ("young" senior citizens) I don't want to discourage her from keeping her faith because of the emotional pain she'd suffer, so I don't. I support her desire to be active. She pays her tithing, but I don't, and she attends church without me. (We have other family in the ward, so she's not alone there.)

We are doing ok, in fact much better than I had feared. She has settled down and accepts the status quo, and I don't make waves. She doesn't know I'm no longer a Christian or even a theist, though.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 01:59PM by rationalguy.

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Posted by: tjlang ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 02:14PM

TBM here... I asked this question a few months ago and received really good advice from many individuals which I really appreciated. Much of which was repeated above. I have been lurking ever since hoping to learn more.

However, I am still struggling with this issue as it seems to me both parties have to sacrifice so much. (based on the many stories I read here.) For those of you who are in it, is the compromise worth what you have to give up of yourself? It just seems that you will never be able to truly be "together" if your fundamental beliefs differ so much.

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 02:21PM

Is the compromise worth what you have to give up of yourself?

To be completely honest, no it would not be.

However she is the mother of my children and I am the father of her children. That commonality and being partners in that aspect means a lot. In that area I could never replace her and she could never replace me. I'm not dismissing those who choose to do this apart, but for me this is the overriding decision maker. However, if I did not also feel there was significant potential that our relationship could continue to improve and if I were not still in love with my wife that would not be enough because I do not believe I would truly being doing my children a favor by staying in a dead end relationship.

Also, I feel that both my wife and I have done a pretty good job of not having to compromise to give up ourselves - we have learned to allow each other enough space to be ourselves - it does come at a cost of emotionally intimacy however - see robertb's excellent post above.

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Posted by: snuckafoodberry ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 02:21PM

My husband is worth it to me because I love him without conditions put on it. I'll do what I have to do to make it work. If my efforts fail one day my child will know that it isn't because mom didn't try or didn't love dad. It's because dad loved Mormonism more than mom.

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 02:24PM

That's really the hard part isn't it? When you know that they love Mormonism more than you. My wife has openly acknowledged that I'm not even close to competing with Mormonism for her loyalty, attention, and admiration.

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Posted by: spaghetti oh ( )
Date: June 06, 2013 02:22PM

This thread is totally depressing. :-(

I can not imagine being in a relationship where I felt that I could not be my true self (keep my thoughts to myself, plod on, not talk about things). Ug.

This Kurt Cobain quote comes to mind: 'I would rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not.'

Of course Cobain shot his brains out and I'm probably single because my true self is annoying as hell and unlovable, but still I think there's a lot of wisdom in that quote.

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