There's no questions that there is concern amongst the brass of the tscc regarding the numbers of members leaving/going inactive.

We are fully aware of Jensen's admission and some interpret that as the church has sprung a leak that is beyond repair.

Simply not the case. It's not going away. I live in the heart of Idaho Zion and it is absolutely thriving hear. I've been involved in two ward splits in the last 3 years in my Stake. The new temple will open 5 minutes from my house in a couple of years and my community will flock to it.

At it's core it is still thriving. Families are so invested and so comfortable in their mindset that it simply doesn't matter what material is placed in front of them.

I was breaking it down recently with my brother regarding the ward we grew up in. The "power" families twenty years have roughly a 60/'40 ratio for peers of ours who stayed in the church. Some have left and returned. Some have left and stayed out.

In the heart of "zion" there is enough staying power to sustain the church forever.

The "daughters" of zion are the churches most valuable asset bar none. As long as there are beautiful mormon girls (and there's plenty) the bretheren will tow the line.

It is simply less taxing to leave for some than is worth it. Understandably so in my opinion. A great deal of my friends are "fence sitter" types who love their wives and kids. Bottom line (as is often evidenced here) if one spouse takes a stand against tssc, the other bolts with the kids.

Some are so principled in their stand against the church that that is a price they will pay. The majority however will simply grin and bear the part of mormonism that bothers them in the name of saving their marriage and keeping their family intact.

People can bash them all they want but I don't. I get it completely. "How can you supports an institution that is so evil, discriminatory, destructive, etc."?" It's a "buffet" mentality and ALL of us employ in one way or another.

For example our country's closet (USA) is so filled with filthy baggage that anyone objective person would be disgusted. Pick a scandal. Pick an injustice. Pick a form of absolute corruption. It doesn't matter. The closet is full. Yet most of us acknowledge that it is an imperfect institution and move on without giving up our citizenship or burning our flags or revolting against our government (other than through proper political processes).

And that's the mormon mindset. A LARGE percentage (who knows what it is exactly) have numberous misgivings about tscc. It simply is not enough to force them out for some. They compartmentalize it as "something to be understood later" and move on.

That is why it will never ultimately fail. It is elastic enough to bear some uncomfortable history. The leaders are masters at the art of spinning things in a way that most of the true tbm masses accept it and not begrudgingly but admiringly.

It's truly a fascinating thing to watch now that I have both perspectives.

I think the cult's biggest weakness is their business model, meaning they run the cult just like a business.

If a business stops growing it is in big trouble especially if it allocates resources to non-revenue producing areas.

We might see the cult get "over their skis" with their expansion into the under-developed countries. You know they are not pulling sustainable tithing numbers in impoverished worlds and I see this as a possible albatross.

Plus they are evil so I would not be suprprised to see them hit with some kind of scandal.

Of course this is all wishful thinking because I hate the cult so much.

"You know they are not pulling sustainable tithing numbers in impoverished worlds and I see this as a possible albatross."

I think this is a large part of the reason why the church is so cost-conscious (ie. member janitors and skimpy ward budgets) and has so many investments (ranches, malls, etc.). As the church grows in more poor countries, they will need the money they have saved/invested to help cover the added costs due to less tithing coming from these nations. However, as those countries continue to develop, and the church hits multi-generations, I believe they expect those countries to eventually be able to cover their costs. Also, consider that just like the tithing/revenue from those countries is low, so are many of the expenses.

I'm not saying that it will all work that way, but I'm guessing that's part of what's behind their thought processes and decision making.

The one thing I will acknowledge is they are first and foremost accomplished businessmen. I trust they will have no problem sustaining the cult for years to come.

I'm praying for a scandal.

This is exactly right. I am quite confident that the Church's for profit efforts are solid enough to sustain the Church, even with the drop in tithing. Additionally, "sustaining the Church", or "growth", are not static ideas. While membership growth is healthy for the Church, that is really only true so long as the members remain active. If the motivation is financial, then the growth in membership may not always correlate to growth in income. Sustaining all of the Church's current programs isn't necessary either. The Church could still thrive even if they cut programs like CES, so I'm not sure that's the point. The Church is here to stay, membership or not.

You might have a point in Morridor, but not elsewhere. It will more and more be some weird cult thing with magic underwear and stepford wives in Utah and Idaho, with a sprinkling of NOMs in California. It won't hold on in the Mission Field. The poor TBMs who have to go out in the world to work will just be serving a sentence to get back into Zion. They are insular already. They will be more so. It will grow only by birth rate and lose an increasing percentage of those. I don't know if Utah Mormons realize what an oddity in much of the US and World until or unless they go on missions. Even they they are controlled they might experience a little. They really only see it if they get a job in the real world of the "mission field" and actually live there.

You are right in that TSCC is not going to implode suddenly and disappear. I have heard that the morridor is pretty solid because members from other areas are moving into the morridor.

There are TBMs who will stay in TSCC despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The secret to the longevity to the cult is that it is a social institution much like a country club. Sure, there are probably many members who question on a deeper level... but they are too invested in it. Their family is entrenched in it.

Also, you have members who could give a flip about the teachings. They just love the social aspect to it. My DW is an example of this. She has told me that she questions some things about the church.. but when her VTs show up... WHAMMO! Hook lined and sinkered. She is a social butterfly who loves to interact with others despite the agendas.

Sofia says "You might have a point in Morridor but not elsewhere." I was about to fully agree with OP but I also agree with sofia.

I think about how many people I knew as a TBM, i.e. TBM friends, ex-girlfriends, etc, and the percentage that ended up moving to Utah or Idaho Mormon hot spots.

They seem to be consolidating, but as such, they have set up a defensive barricade around themselves.

I have been following a particular couple's blog, and they are doing very well. They're extremely active and busy, way busier than I am, unfortunately, and they are starting a family, well organized, enjoying life. You can be happy in Mormonism, and if you shelter your brain from dirty facts or resistance by settling in high-traffic Mormon settlements, you can maintain that blissful ignorance. It's a great tradition, for some people.

Edit: I wonder, though, how well this works as a short-term solution. Maybe pretty good, but long-term as generations confront a post-modern world, what how long can can their children remain white-knuckled whilst holding onto their old, erroneous ways?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 06:26AM by greekgod.

greekgod- you hit the nail on the head. The fact is, is some people are happy in it. It is a blissful ignorance where everything is figured out from the day you are born... till the day you enter the grave.

TSCC has the whole nine yards... they got the sense of community, give you a sense of purpose, provide rites of passage, and give you an ego boost as well.

It doesn't work for those pesky rascals that are interested in the truth!

Yes. To hell with truth! Whenever I'm asked by Mormons "Since you left the church, are you happy?" I think that's a silly question and respond "leaving the church was never about happiness, but about the truth." They have a hard time wrapping their heads around that.

But, I also recognized that as a TBM I felt good obeying the church rules because I was programmed to; the relief of guilt and anxiety that came from confessing my sins, and being able to go to the temple. Leaving the church once I realized it wasn't true was extremely painful, emotionally and mentally. It makes "logical" (not logical, but from the perspective of a Mormon) sense to avoid asking hard questions because it makes you feel "icky" and "wrong". In my questioning phase, a roommate at BYU-I said "Looking up anti is as bad as watching porn." Hmm.

I guess its just a matter of priorities, isn't it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 06:42AM by greekgod.

I think the Internet will destroy the church. These communities in Utah and Idaho are anomalies.

Stay away from Utah and Idaho and the church isn't a blip on most people's radar.

The church will remain strong in the Moridoor. But the church wants to be authoritarian and to be growing constantly. It can't have both. Do you really see it taking off in India or China, the two most populous countries? I don't. Why should people want to embrace mormonism when they have to throw out centuries of their own culture?

Why should people want to embrace mormonism when they have to throw out centuries of their own culture?

Ask my parents. They had no problem dishonoring my grandfather's religion.

I was thinking more in terms of coffee, tea and alcohol. Are garments practical in all climates? Do you see whole countries embracing an American religion? Mormons aren't a majority even in the US.

I have had a lot of friends move to Utah also. Some moved to find their children good spouses and then stayed to be near them. Some moved to raise their families or retire. It's amazing to me. I am MUCH happier out of the church and I know my children are happier not being raised in that stifling enviroment. Any child who does not fit the Mormon clone for whatever reason won't thrive in that culture. They will be depressed and made to feel a lesser being. None of my children are homosexual, but if they had been that would have been even worse for them.

Ironically, Utah's good governance may prove to be the downfall of the LDS church.

Utah has become a good destination for a lot of tech companies (among others), such as Adobe, Cisco, Microsoft, EMC, and eBay to expand here. As they do so, plenty of non-LDS pursue the jobs. The tech sector in Utah County is not predominantly LDS (plenty of ex-Mo's, though), and that's unlikely to change.

The Mormon percentage in Utah is decreasing. Eventually, there will be a tipping point, where the comfort level of members who leave will be equal to that in any other state, at which point you'll see a similar rate of decline in Utah as elsewhere.

I challenge the notion that Mormons are happy, especially young women. I read Mormon mommy blogs, and I'm struck by how many of the women are not happy. They are struggling.

The reasons seem to me to be:

1. Too many children too fast
2. Women sacrificing educational and career goals
3. Tithing & other donations (and #1) putting strain on budgets
4. Exhaustion due to demands of the church (and #1)
5. Male dominated culture
6. Sexual issues (due to shame, and #1, #2, #3, #4, #5)

Strangely, the women who write these blogs don't blame the LDS church for any of this!

That's the part I don't understand.

They don't see a connection between the tenets and culture of the church and their problems.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 08:25AM by ellenl.

I didn't. I was not a very happy newly married, mother of young children, serving in the church. Something was very wrong but I blamed the fact I was living in Salt Lake at the time. Or my husband. Or myself. The fact that the CHURCH was causing my unhappiness didn't even cross my mind. Until I wandered onto the truth on the internet and took a step back. Then I realized most of my unhappiness either came from the unfair expectations the church put on me and the gut feeling something was very wrong that I was trying to cram on a shelf and ignore. One of my strongest feelings upon finding out the church was a fraud was the feeling everything suddenly made sense.

That's why I think the tipping point for a lot of Mormons will be the internet. If something is feels wrong with your Mormon lifestyle, sooner or later you will feel inclined to actually think about the things you may have found but ignored. That's why I also think that the church will probably exist as some small, sub-culture cult for a long time. Because of the people who are NOT unhappy and easily ignore their doubts because of the benefits. And honestly, I don't care if it continues as long as they learn to play nicely with other people. JWs don't bug me because they stay on their side of the playground for the most part and are usually nice enough when they wander into my neighborhood. They aren't the self-righteous, arrogant, unable to see themselves clearly, threatening to take my kids, judging others as unworthy brats the current form of Mormonism seems to spew forth.

You won't see the change unless we can see the numbers. And we don't go to church so we don't see the empty seats. And if we do go it is for a special occasion a d the seats are full.

My parents had 7 kids 4 of those do not attend.(57% left the church)
All three of my kids left including myself. (80% quit or don't go)
In my street 16 homes 4 active 8 inactive 4 never
Nevermo.
Looks like death of the church to me

In my extended TBM family, those who live outside of Utah are semi-active or inactive. Those who live in Utah are active. And yes, some of them moved to Utah to ensure that activity in themselves and their kids. So, I'm echoing what others have said.

Even then, many of my (now adult) Utah nieces/nephews are social mormons at best with little actual commitment to its doctrines or rules.

Do you attend Sunstone?

Comparing Church membership to citizenship doesn't work. The US Gov doesn't claim it is the one true country on earth. As a citizen I can do my best to vote out corruption and right the wrongs of others under the rule of law. You don't get to vote in Church...at least in any meaningful way. Church is a command and control theocracy where you do as your told. If you don't like something about the way they present the "truth" then tough toenails. What recourse do you have? Talk to some know-nothing Bishop because the GA's won't take your questions. I can call up my Senator and get a bunch of other people to call my Senator and bring forth some change (slowly for sure but at least it is possible).

+1 anon

The comparison of church and country is a fail.

You can leave a church and do just fine without another church. When you leave a country, is there a place you can live that's a government-free country or maybe find a country=free parcel of land? Maybe if you're rich enough to buy your own island.

Also, how many of those shiny, happy people that have their butts in the pews every week are true believers who are truly happy "living the gospel" vs. how many of them are there out of fear of losing their families but don't pay tithing or hold callings or toe the Brethren's line? We know this group exists because some of them post on this board.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 10:35AM by Surrender Dorothy.

+1

You ARE talking about Idaho, after all. One is not moved toward surprise.

Society evolves, even in Mormonism based on society acceptance. In a generation or two young women will not accept second fiddle to priesthood authority. Families with gay children who wish to marry will not be supportive of the LDS idea that their gay son or daughter should enter a heterosexual union. It is a matter of time before these things are entirely rejected by society. What then for Mormonism? Producing children for the kingdom, celestial marriage, patriarchal dominance are major tenets.

the birth rate can't be discounted. in my deep south location LDS is a huge presence in the ritzier part of town just through the weight of sheer numbers

Yep. I agree with much of your assessment - the LDS church is very good at getting its membership to be "all in" and the cost of leaving is very high for most.

However, all organized religion are in decline worldwide. As education and communication continue to improve it will be harder and harder for religions to control the dialog and push their dogma.

It will take time, but the Mormon church will not be immune to this. It will eventually have to change its position of being God's true truth led by prophets to being a spiritual club or eventually be relegated to being a small, insignificant side note.

That may take dozens or even hundreds of years, but that is where it is heading eventually.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 10:07AM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

The former bishop of my ex-ward announced in 2009 that missionary work in our city had "ground to a halt after Proposition 8." (Those were his exact words.) I left the church last year, and there had been fewer than a dozen baptisms since Prop 8 in a stake where there were previously a few dozen baptisms PER WARD every year before Prop 8. And we all know that recent converts are very likely to come to their senses and go inactive fairly quickly.

I think that not only has there been fall-off in conversions due to Prop 8 itself, but also the fact that it put the church in the news made even people who are against marriage equality more likely to look up the church, and find information there that would keep them from having any interest in joining.

Don't give up so easily op...we probably live less than a minute from you...since we have left, we see cracks everywhere...once the "tipping point" is reached, i think the church will get dropped like a hot potato here...who really wants to go to a temple across the street from a strip mall and fred meyer when our valley offers such a great quality of life?...now the political situation here...yeah...that will be a tough nut to crack...

I disagree.

Inactivity is up, tithing is down, and the Mormon Moment turned belly up and stinketh like a rancid carp.

TSCC is in panic mode and I couldn't be more pleased.

...is that the church doesn't take measures to correct problems it doesn't have. So, with recently announced things like lowering missionary ages and the project to answer stick questions about the church, I think it's fair to say they're having a serious problem with members walking away.

I just took a quick look at their official membership/convert numbers -- there has not been any real change in the number of converts per year over last 7 years and historically it's at the same level as in 1992 or 1988. Before 1988, there was a moreless steady increase (with a small dip around 1983). The highest number of converts was in early 1990s (opening new missions in Europe around that time probably helped with this).

In 2002 there was a push for 'only the best can serve a mission' (I forgot how they called this officially): number of missionaries dropped abt 10,000 from 2002-2004. I think they expected that they will retain or even increase the number of converts but it just did not reach the pre-2002 levels. Now they have about the same number of missionaries as they did in 2002 (not quite but close), it will be interesting to see the numbers in couple years. My prophecy is that they will be disappointed and will come up with another change in their missionary policy in 6 years :)

They are two desperate to get new converts and don't realize the reason they are not successful in that has nothing to do with missionary policy and everything to do with the lack of demand for their product.

They called it "Raising the Bar". I believe it was to cover up the fact that fewer we serving missions.

People on this board need to clarify where they are talking about and realize LOCATION makes a HUGE difference on the Morg's strength, growth, influence etc.

In the western nations, outside of the Morridor (Utah, Idaho, etc), it is dying. Almost every state in the US that is not touching Utah it is either declining or plateauing. It is DYING in Europe (where it never really had a foothold anyway). It is growing in a few 3rd world countries like Mexico, Brazil, the Philippines, and some African countries, but we all know that this growth is weak. Most converts go inactive and they don't bring in any money for the church.

The church is barely keeping up worldwide population growth. Their slice of the pie will never grow any bigger. They reached their highest point in market share and will only decline at this point.

The heart of Mormonism is Utah (and its adjacents) and due to pioneer ancestral pride and close knit communities (i.e. "the Mormon Bubble") it will continue to remain strong there but that is it. If stayed in the Morridor, Mormonism may seem to be going strong, but step outside of it and you wouldn't even know it existed besides the missionaries on their bikes.

It is like an empire that starts growing exponentially. They keep growing, extending their tentacles all over the world, but this can only go on for so long. Soon these tentacles shrivel up and fall off and they are ultimately left with their small but dense power base where they originally started (Utah) with maybe a few insignificant outposts (like Mexico or Brazil).

They're like the Roman Empire or the British Empire. The Italian & British nation are still around but they are hardly what they used to be and they are basically confined to where they started off.

At a certain point any growth is primarily going to be due to a few long line of families keeping the Morg afloat.