Homo Sapiens Maximus and I were recently discussing how we handle TBM family members and sharing our own personal beliefs now that I am surrounded by TBMs again and with him being surrounded by TBM family members.

Most normal people don't discuss religion or politics in large groups because it's the polite thing to do. Rather they understand that it's best to shout at your close friends about how stupid they are for being wrong all the time about important things.

TBMs often have a problem with sharing their beliefs quite frequently in inappropriate settings without even realizing how rude they might be.

TBM family members have no problems talking about church stuff ad naseum, but are offended or "attacked" if someone mentions something contrary to church stuff.

For example - my family can go on and on about stake president this or bishop that or ward function this or calling that - but if I say that dimple pinch is my favorite whiskey - world war 3 would be declared.

Because of this - I don't share jack shit about my exmormon views. Usually when family talks about churchy things, I am either:

1) Thinking about pornography

2) Writing some part of a book in my head

3) Feeling lucky that Carnage was in my dreams the night before

While it's amusing to hear stories of other exmos getting into giant fights with their family members because they dared to disagree or talk about something "non-church approved," it's not so amusing to know that there were so many hurt feelings for the exmo.

So, I wanted to discuss how other people view this issue.

I don't share - but I completely admit that this is a totally unfair and ridiculous situation. If other people get to say that "homosexuality is evil" why can't I discuss how I think Final Fantasy should put Regular Jesus as a "summoner" character?

You can summon Odin, Shiva, and Ramuh - why not Jesus?

He could heal your entire party, and that would be quite helpful. He could also cast Zombie on your enemies, and then you could quickly kill them with curative spells and items.

Again, if I even started talking about that - I would be "terrible," so I retreat to my pornographic memory.

What about y'all?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2013 02:40PM by Raptor Jesus.

In our once every two year family reunions (alternative years were for the spouse's family reunions -- sheesh what a waste of time) there always came that "special" time where we all sat around and had a mini-fast-n-testy meeting -- ugh. And as usual the spirit "moved" around the room in clockwise order till it got to ME. Now everyone older than 20 KNEW I no longer a believer in the myth. I think by the looks on all of their faces that an uncomfortable "I'll pass" was expected.

Instead I stood and told a few facts that were MUCH closer to "truth" (based on evidence) than any of the "feelings" thus far expressed. Oh how my family members later bemoaned how I was an evil influence on their younger children and teens. Hah.

Needless to say that was the LAST fast-n-testy meeting we ever had, they did try a more conventional "moved-by-the-spirit" kind of testimony meeting a few years later but then of course I was COMPELLED to speak by the burning in the chest I felt (chili maybe??). End of story.

You are awesome.

The other day, while out to dinner with my wife’s family, I got into an argument with my TBM brother-in-law over points of procedure during Mormon excommunications. I had ordered two glasses of wine, which had already agitated him, but when I spoke less-than-favorably about the church he blew his top. I had responded in a way that I thought was friendly and conversational, but I’m confident that anything I said would have set him off. Should I have kept my mouth shut and just let him say whatever he wanted? Perhaps that would have led to a more pleasant dinner, but I feel like I have every bit as much of a right to talk about Mormonism as does he. I grew up in it, I studied it zealously, and although it led me to leave I feel very qualified to speak on what I know.

My mother has been quite obnoxious about her activity in the church recently. It seems that she takes every opportunity to tell me how devout she is and how filled she is by the many sweet, tasty treats that Jesus and the prophets shove down her spiritual throat in the form of blessings, then turning around complaining about all the shitty things her adult children do to make her sad. The other day I decided to cut my Mom off and tell her about my recent re-reading of Mark from a more pharisaical point of view, and how my recent study of The Book of Enoch and Jewish demonology has really changed my understanding of the spiritual world as seen in 1st century Judaea. She asked me, as nicely as she could muster, to leave her house.

One more example: at a Memorial Day party at my house the subject of Orson Scott Card’s dismissal from writing Superman comics for DC was brought up. Someone asked why that had happened, and when no one else seemed to know I said something to the effect of, “Card was fired because he’s an insane homophobe who threatened to rebel against the US government if he gays ever got the right to marry.” What followed was dead silence for close to a minute, while all the TBMs in the room looked down, shuffled their feet or quickly stuffed food into their mouths.

I study what I love, and I love to talk about what I study. Mormons do as well. I want to give them the opportunity to speak their minds as long as I’m afforded the same respect. I don’t force my beliefs on others, I don’t try to convert anyone, and I don’t necessarily expect that my more religious friends will accept what I say as true. I just want to talk, openly and honestly.

As a side note, I want to say that I’m grateful for my dear pal Raptor, who will happily talk about anything that comes to mind, whether it be scriptures, porn, booze or comics... or other things that normal folks talk about.

My silence keeps the peace - but it also leaves me silent quite often.

Unless we are talking about upcoming movies - I don't have much to contribute to family gatherings. Recently I've found that I can't even make the most innocuous of jokes if they are at all religious based. These would be jokes that would have been completely acceptable before my disaffection. But now they cause uncomfortable silence.

While I'm not scared of confrontation, I often avoid it out of pure laziness. I don't want to be bothered with the fallout.

But, like I mentioned before, it keeps me quiet quite frequently.

I tend to be quiet a lot at family gatherings. Or I just play with the kids. It's easier than having to strike up awkward conversations with people who are afraid that I might say something that would invite the devil to stick his naughty bits into their earholes.

I was "un-friended" on Facebook by another of my TBM in-laws because he found my pro-humanist, anti-religion arguments, in his words, "too persuasive."

My wife and I are seriously considering moving away from our families and starting a new life somewhere new.

"My silence keeps the peace - but it also leaves me silent quite often."

This is a beautiful line... Can I use it, you know, when the occasion arises?

I'm kind of in a "don't ask, don't tell" arrangement with my parents. If they don't ask I won't tell, but if they do ask, I'll be honest. I think they know on some level that I'm an evil apostate, but they can't bring themselves to believe it. I was, after all the only one of four boys that went on a mission and I'm pretty sure they thought I'd be in Salt Lake by now working my way up the chain of command.

Each phone call is usually a one sided conversation when things turn to religion, they talk about what they heard at church, but never ask me my thoughts on the subject. Probably because they know, at least on some level, that the answer they'd get would make their worst fears come true... If they don't ask, they can live in the delusion that I'm still just inactive, but a true believer at heart.

Phone calls can be even more difficult because they can't see your eyes glaze over and your posture slump from abject boredom as they yammer on about innane church dealings.

Hmmm...I was just reading this thread and I had the thought "What would it look like if I turned the tables?"

Like...next time my mother calls and goes into talking about church stuff, I could be all:

"Oh, hey, that reminds me! I was watching this porn video the other day - it was so HOT! There were these two guys and this one chick, and..."

I think she'd take that about as well as she did when I taught my autistic son to say "Evil" when asked "What's BYU?"

Nearly started an argument myself today when I brought up philosophical point about the limitations of free will with my SIL. He's TBM and an attorney. Apparently he shares the common TBM belief that we have perfect, magical and unlimited free will.

He was talking about a criminal. All I said was that given that the crook doesn't have contra-causal free will, perhaps he couldn't have done otherwise, and confinement should be not for retribution, just for rehibilitation or lacking that, to keep him from harming anyone. Fireworks ensued. Other TBM's in the room said the crook deserved death, preferrably in some bloody, painful manner....I could have mentioned that that's not really a Christian attitude exactly. But it was a lost cause at that point.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2013 03:14PM by rationalguy.

that's the pure MORmON version of love of Christ for you.
the kind of MORmON *love* that Brigham Young invoked when it came to justifying blood atonement -which is a total mockery of Christ's sacrifice, and I am saying that as an atheist.

That is a bizarre thing for an atheist to say.

Very bizarre, considering jesus drowned the whole earth, committed genocide and infanticide, commanded the hebrews to kidnap and rape the virgin daughters of neighboring tribes, and outright endorsed the enslavement of non-hebrews.

And please, enough with jesus' "sacrifice." What did he sacrifice exactly? He had a rough weekend. That's it.

I cannot place high enough value on the simple phrase "when I was mormon."

Anytime I hear a TBM (family or not) start talking about mormony stuff I casually say, "yeah. When I was mormon I (insert condescending statement)".

The physical reaction is quite satisfying. It almost always results in the immediate cessation of religions dialogue. The more casually you say it, the better.

Example: A couple weeks ago my TMB mom mentions something along the lines of how there could be a moon base on the dark side of the moon. I responded, "yeah. When I was mormon I used to believe all sorts of conspiracy theories about the moon, but now I realize I was just being silly."

"when I was mormon" This is good, and the advice to keep it casual even better. It is a great way to remind my family that I am not mormon, because no matter what, they continually convince themselves that I really do believe deep down. How could you not?

"When I was a Mormon, I used to think that way too," said in a sad tone while wryly shaking your head with a little smirk on your face. Following up with what you now think is optional.

Perfect. It's the ex-Mormon equivalent of being told by a TBM, "I used to have doubts too, but now I know the Church is true!"

If they bring it up first, I call fair game.

Though I keep my opinions on the mellow side, to help preserve their feelings. Even if they don't give a fuck about mine.

Though I do admit to playing the silent bored out of my mind game on the little topics. Mom starts talking about brother so and so...and I just sit there and glaze over or say, "hmmm" in a very dull voice.

But if MIL starts her ranting about how marriage is between a man and a woman, then I refuse to stand silently.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2013 04:17PM by fidget.

I was briefly in a similar situation when traveling through Utah and staying with TBM friends. I've not told them I am apostate and just waited to see how often church topics surfaced during conversation. I was pleasantly surprised that it was not that often. The wife is rather overwhelmed with financial issues and finally confessed that she needs to find other work that is not so physically demanding. She must work to help support their life style (really huge home) which is a bit lavish for the number of children they have. I pity her that she never went to college and doesn't have many job skills though she is really very intelligent. It is sad that I cannot speak openly to her because she would be a great friend as an ex Mormon.

The only time Mormon topics came up were when she discussed her oldest two children and their missions. One is about to return and one is about to leave. I dominated the topic by telling them to make sure her kids don't feel afraid to contact them if they get ill and explained a few horror stories from my mission. They were surprised but agreed that their children's health and welfare came first. The only other times Mormonism came up was the multiple times she announced that it was her duty to make sure her children grew up to have strong testimonies. I was able to easily divert that topic by complimenting her on how polite and well mannered her children are, and what a great Mom she is, which is true. I think the reason I like staying friends with these people is because they are not over the top LDS and they also have lots of interests outside the Mormon church. I always have fun talking to her husband about his job and his hobbies. But if I lived in Utah I think I'd got nuts and we would likely part ways. As much as I enjoyed seeing them, I was really happy when I crossed into Wyoming on my trek (by auto) east. I have no intention of sharing my beliefs with TBMs unless asked. And that never seems to happen because becoming apostate makes me a huge threat to any of them and they keep a very large distance from me.

I become speechless, tongue paralyzed, when I am with the family. It's not out of fear, and I would not abuse the word respect by calling it that either. I don't know what it is. I can hardly identify who I am around the family. I become nothing more than audience--the last thing I ever wanted to be in my own life. It is not a good feeling.

This topic of TBM family interaction is very important to me and I love hearing everyone's stories on this thread. Thank you Raptor. I have said things and felt the air sink to the floor as my fathers eyes hit me with the priesthood glare. I could go head to head if I had to, but I don't. I don't like it. I don't know how to change it without knifing everybody's feelings.

It's just this awful no man's land for me--being the only one with your mouth taped shut spiritually.

Thankyou Blue. I think you explained how many people feel.

I absolutely do not bring up the church first. If someone else brings it up I get to have my say, though I try to be respectful while still disagreeing. My mom especially has learned to not bring it up. We have had a few nasty arguments and my lack of awe for the church and its leaders always upsets her. We had a small one again this last weekend, unfortunately my dad was right there and he has always been so cool with how he handles his beliefs that I don't like feeling like I am attacking him so I had to keep it toned down.

After any church based argument with a TBM I always end up feeling like I was trying to convince a dog to not bark at the TV by presenting it with a powerpoint presentaion illustrating how a TV works. It just never works. Sadly its considered bad form to just smack a TBM on the nose with a rolled up magazine when they start going off on their church or I would love to give that a try.

you never know till you try.

..."I understand, I used to be the same way, but now I see things from a different POV" or "I get where you're coming from because I once felt like that too, but people change." Then I "bean-dip" the conversation if possible, excuse myself to find something else to do, or retreat into my own mind.

It may sound like an asshole idea, but I don't see anything wrong with taking something to keep your hands busy when in those situations. I would simply tell someone it helps to keep my anxiety level down and increases dexterity if he or she questions why I brought _______.

I have a friend who, when someone tries initiating a church conversation with him, immediately interrupts them and says... "stop right there. I appreciate you want to talk about church stuff, but I'm not interested. Now if you insist on it, I'm happy to oblige, but one of us is gonna end up crying and it isn't gonna be me. So, let's just agree to move on, shall we."

...this hits a nerve.

Nothing has done more damage to my immediate family than my mother's insistence that we all embrace her particular flavor of Christianity, which included Mormonism for several years. As a reality-based person, I was never able to adjust to her "believe hard enough and all your problems will be solved" ostrich mentality. My father just hates hypocrites, so church was not for him.

Despite this, my extended family is full of mainstream churchgoing types, not particularly fanatical, and pretty nice to be around.

Unfortunately, my contact with them as an adult has been limited. (I can't say more here without oversharing.)

So last year a cousin of mine found me online and invited me to reconnect with that side of my family. Great! Wow! FAMILY again! I'm on the next plane!

It went great, for the first few hours. I really enjoyed seeing them again. And then my cousin's wife noticed the obvious emotional distance between my family and myself. For example, I didn't know that my sister had recently gotten engaged. Because nobody tells me anything.

So I said my mother and I aren't really all that close, and...

...I should have seen it coming. It was like the Pod Person inside my cousin-in-law heard some kind of signal. Her eyes widened, she took my hand, and asked in a slower-than-average tone, "Do you have a testimony of God at all?"

I was honest. I said I'm not an atheist but not a Christian. Which is true. I tried changing the subject, but the floodgates were open and my recently born-again cousin-in-law just HAD to tell me ALL ABOUT how "the dark hand of Satan" is has descended upon this country and tempted everyone to start accepting people who "choose to be Gay." And she Would. Not. Shut. Up. For the next three hours.

I realized that getting closer to my relatives meant I would be drawn into a Second Family World War all over again. I haven't been in touch with them since. Cordial distance and weddings/funerals it is, then.

Fundamentalist supernatural beliefs, spoon-fed to the gullible, have cheated me out of what should have been the most important relationships of my life. I will not humor the "testimony" meetings, the impromptu "revivals," or whatever else people call them. I just leave now, without sharing anything. And I post on this board, which is inspiring because so many people here understand this.

A little off topic, but I remember talking to my ex-Mormon mother, shortly after leaving the church myself, and we got to the subject of Smith marrying 14 year old girls. She visibly got angry, not at me, but the church, and it was then I realized he intense level of betrayer she had felt from her religion when she had learned the truth.

Mom's favorite calling had always been working in the Young Women's program. A lot of good folks bemoan the calling, but Mom loved it, and she loved her girls. (Had she ever had the opportunity, she would have made a wonderful teacher, so long as she didn't have to deal with teenage boys, who she hated if they were not her own children) Mom was deeply upset, because she did not see Fanny Algier as some faceless figure from history. Fanny may as well have been one of her young women's students, because that is how I think she saw the poor girl.

It was one of the most telling conversations I have ever had with my mother, and I love her deeply for it. Some people hate others, because they hate themselves. My mother loves nearly everyone, but those she hates, she hates because she loves those who are close to her so much.

I look forward to the day I can share that kind of emotion with my other TBM relationships, and that is the point of my story about my mother.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2013 11:27PM by forbiddencokedrinker.

Your mom sounds like my kind of lady! I've always liked you, but I think I might like your mom even more. ;P

I just pretend like I've never heard of their silliness. Whenever they say "oh, we believe this" or whatever, I usually say "that's the stupidest thing I think I've ever heard in my life, and I know A LOT of stupid people"
It is hysterical to see them turn burgandy and grapple for any explanation they can.
So after five or ten minutes of sputtering barely formative sentences at me, I usually then say: " just so you're aware, the more ardently you try to rationalize something, the less rational it is in reality." And then just excuse myself.
They hate that sh*t...

But sometimes, it sure is tempting. But it's not worth it to rock that boat.

Honestly, if someone doesn't talk to me directly about my beliefs, I don't say anything. If religion comes up at a gathering, I usually just migrate to a different conversation (in a big group, this is easy and unobtrusive to do), or excuse myself to get a drink or something. I don't want to sit there and listen to people talk about it, and say nothing. And RJ, I also see no point in getting into it with anyone. It's not like I'll change anyone's mind.

Sometimes I try to steer the conversation in a different direction.

Those who have pushed the topic directly, got a direct response, and I don't think they liked it. Nobody has done that for years. I wonder if there was a "return and report" on me.

The sad thing is that you CAN'T be close to people if you can't share your true self with them. Mormonism creates a climate of judgement, performance, and phoniness. But at least polite phoniness is better than WWIII.

I'm actually not allowed within the family to talk about my disbelief. Even my inactive dad thinks that talking about it is bad, & he doesn't believe either.

It just really bothers me, because I found out yesterday that at least 4 other previously supposedly TBM family members are actually now inactive, & I would like to talk to them about where they actually stand - if they are just inactive, or if they disbelieve like I do.

I came up with a new way to respond to the question "are you a member of the chu'ruch?"

I shared my new brain child with my TBM bro and sis-in-law, as a way to share my beliefs with them.

My response is (slightly shamefully) "no, I'm a jack Mormon". Then (brightening up) "but I drink Kolob beer!"

They didn't think it was too funny, but humor is a great way to share beliefs.

Cheers, luv n kizzes,
RG

Thank you, Jesus, for this thread, which is appropriate, coming up on family-reunion time. Mine is Saturday. It is usually a large enough group that I'm never cornered into a one-on-one conversation. But, yes, they are all Mormons, and they mostly talk about the church.

I love the advice to play with the kids! That's what I do, mostly. I try to keep track of all their names, and which family they belong to, etc. This keeps me mentally occupied, and focused. Children are delightful, and funny. Give me a ball, a stick, some toy boats, a few kids, and I'm good.

I stay silent to keep the peace, with all Mormons. I usually enjoy chatting away, making and laughing at jokes, exchanging opinions and information. I like learning new things at parties. Needless to say, Mormon gatherings are, for me, extremely dull. I don't like constantly biting my tongue, when I hear racial slurs and false judgments, gossip, and lies. It makes me dislike these people more and more, the more I keep it bottled up.

I plan ahead of time to leave the reunions early, and either meet up with a few sane people to talk and laugh a bit, or read a very satisfying book, watch a racy comedy, or come here on RFM to vent. I don't think it is healthy to seethe like a pressure-cooker.

Ha-ha! I like to talk about movies with my family, too, but only the PG-rated ones, and we often talk about cartoon movies our kids enjoy. I'm a career person, so I usually enjoy talking to the men about economics, current events, trends, etc. Still, it looks bad for a single woman to talk to the men too much. So, it's back to playing with the kids. We usually go on a hike, and play on the swings. (It does piss me off when the little ones talk about getting baptized, or pioneer trek, or start singing Primary songs. I've taught them a few Beatles songs over the years.

Can't wait to hear your return & report on the family gathering :)

I have spent years and years being mostly silent about the Mormon church to my family.

Ive always been afraid of offending them and losing them because I said something too offensive about their religion.

That went on for quite a few years and it sucked. I'd go to the family party and hear all this exciting mormon stuff and I'd have to sit there and do time daydreaming etc.

But after a while I got sick of how they talk to me in their condescending tones of how sorry they are feeling for me for being so stupid to be misled (in a passive agressive nice way that confused me). I was often caught in awkward situations where I felt forced to go along with it because otherwise if I stood up for myself right then it would be a fight.

I am the most straight forward person in my family so I was always caught off guard by their passive agressive tactics. Thanks to many of you here on RfM, I started learning about passive-agressive behavior. I've been reverse engineering it and have started using it back on them, hahaha

Sorry if you think I'm a jerk, I have my reasons and will happily discuss more later....but anyways

I told my brother about a close friend of his from high school that is on mormon stories and is gay.

I mentioned that the reason I saw his story there was because I was watching John Dehlin's video on why committed mormons leave. I asked him to watch it and to give me his opinion.

Here's the link I gave: http://mormonstories.org/top-5-myths-and-truths-about-why-committed-mormons-leave-the-church/

I'm going to press it and force him to watch it because he currently has a son on a mission and another in the MTC so I figure it's only fair.

I'm planning on being a nice guy and using passive-influence and even passive-aggression to take them through the John Dehlin video first then on to other things :)


Also---- for me this isn't about trying to share my beliefs with them, its in defense of them using their mormonism to prop themselves up and be arrogant while at the same time using that mormonism to hit me & other people over the head with it. I just think they need to be aware of what the other side thinks and why people leave. Maybe they will come down off their high horses.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 12:08PM by smithscars.