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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: May 31, 2013 04:13PM

This morning I got an email from a missionary who mostly no longer believes that the church is "true." However, he wanted my "take" on it because he isn't quite past the "what if it's true, and I throw away my salvation." He was also pretty clear on how terrible it is to be a missionary. Especially now that he's a "problem missionary." Below is my response:

Dear Elder Hug-E-Bear,

You asked for my take on Mormonism. While I don't like being the person to tell you that Santa Claus isn't real - you are clearly ready to hear that. Everything that I tell you in this email, you can verify on your own with independent research, and your own brain.

That's going to be a big difference between what I have to say, and what you'll hear from other Mormons. We have reasons for not believing in Mormonism - all of which can be independently verified. Everyone else who would want you to believe, will try to manipulate your emotions - or at best try to get you to think that Mormonism MIGHT be possible.

So, keep that in mind. Also, keep in mind that you emailed me as a complete stranger, and the only thing that I want from you is for the possibility of you to be happy because you are a human being. I don't want your money. I don't want your time. And I don't want you to work for me. It doesn't mean anything to me whether you believe me or not. I don't stand to gain or lose anything.

However, your potential apostasy means a great deal to the church. They will lose your money, and they will lose your work. They stand to gain or lose quite a bit.

As I stated earlier, you asked for my take on Mormonism. I will tell you why it's false, and I'm going to start with the "scriptures." I'm going to start with the Bible.

The majority of the "Old Testament" never happened. Sorry if no one has told you that before. We know that human beings evolved in what we now call Africa before venturing out and populating the world.

There is no "Garden of Eden." No Adam and Eve. We can trace our DNA back for over a million years now, and the first story of the bible (and a key part of the Mormon "plan of salvation) never happened.

There is no evidence of a flood that covered the earth. No evidence for Noah. There is no ark. There are a few insane people who have been looking for the ark for a long time - and they still haven't found it after decades of searching.

There is no evidence for Moses. That comes as a shock to a lot of people, but it's a fact. The Egyptians kept very meticulous records, and archeologists and Egyptologists know quite a lot about the time frame that the bible claims the "Hebrews" were "enslaved." But no one in Egypt wrote a single word about Moses, the plagues, or the Hebrew slaves. And those chapters in the bible were written hundreds of years after the time. None of which were written by Moses.

Sorry, we have no evidence of an Exodus or of many of the "prophets" of the "Old Testament." All we have are writings hundreds of years later by multiple authors that got jammed together by even later committees.

Because you are allowed to read the scriptures, you should go through the Old Testament again. I'm going to give you some very broad strokes, but when you read the Old Testament again, you'll see a very mean and petty god emerge. This god has no problem with murder, rape, and terrorist activities to justify his ends. The god of the Old Testament threatens his own "chosen" people just as an abusive parent would threaten a child. And the "prophets" of the Old Testament are quite insane when you read them carefully. But it's tricky to know exactly what those "prophets" were actually saying because, as I said before, there is no physical evidence for them, the "books" attributed them were written much after they supposedly lived, and those books were written with multiple authors.

The "New Testament" doesn't fare much better. The earliest "gospel" we have was written at least 30 years after Jesus supposedly lived, and scholars don't even know who actually wrote the gospels. The gospels weren't signed, so people just attributed the books to apostles by guesswork.

If you read the four "gospels" carefully side by side, you'll notice a lot of inconsistencies. It's because the originals weren't written together, and the writers also didn't agree on who Jesus was, or how to worship him - if at all.

We now know quite a bit about early Christianity. One big Mormon lie is that Mormonism "mirrors" early Christianity. That claim isn't true in the slightest.

Some early "Christian" groups saw Jesus as an apocalyptic preacher who told them to repent before the coming of the "Son of Man." The majority of Christians and Mormons have a complete lack of understanding to the term Son of Man.

It's a Jewish term that didn't mean a Messiah who would save people from their "sins." And only certain Jewish sects actually believed in the "Son of Man." Some Jewish sects thought the "Son of Man" was just a legend.

The earliest gospels read that Jesus was warning people of the coming of the Son of Man, but that Jesus didn't claim to be that figure. He was just the person who warned about the imminent destruction of Jerusalem.

The Romans kept really good records, and they never mentioned anything that the gospels did. Historians know when Herod reigned, and it doesn't match up the claims of when Jesus lived. There's also no historical evidence that Herod ordered any children to be put to death. The Romans weren't afraid of the Jews, or any of their "odd beliefs." The Romans tolerated them as the majority of Americans tolerate Mormons. Most Americans don't know what Mormons believe, nor do they care.

Outside of the bible, there are TWO mentions of Jesus of Nazareth in the historical texts of the time. One of those mentions is most likely a forgery that was put in later.

That's how little of an impact Jesus had during his time. We know that during Jesus' time, there were several "prophets" who preached the coming of the Son of Man while performing healing miracles, so it's likely that one of them was named Jesus and came from Nazareth, but no one who was right there by him wrote anything about him. We have fragments of writings decades later from anonymous people.

And that's why you sometimes will find people who don't believe that Jesus even existed as a historical figure. The best evidence that there was a Jesus of Nazareth deals with probabilities that he existed because there were other people at the same time doing the same things.

So when you say that "the Book of Mormon" has "at least brought you closer to Christ," I can understand your belief in a Christ figure. But I no longer believe in this "Christ figure." The concept of a personal savior came much, much later than when Jesus may have existed.

Early "Christians" had very different views about Jesus, and the gospels show that, but none of the early followers of Jesus had any views that were in the same relm as Mormonism. Sorry. One of the early Christian sects, the Gnostics, saw Jesus more like Buddah. A teacher who was preaching a way towards enlightenment. Not a savior.

The books of the New Testament were voted on by committee. There were quite a few "gospels" that were left out. All of the bible was put together by groups of people who argued and fought over what should be put in and what should be left out. The "scriptures" was a big group project much much later than the events supposedly took place, and many of the authors of the individual books would be horrified if they knew that their writings were next to other writers. That's why the New Testament can't even agree on "works vs. faith." Because the authors of the gospels didn't agree with each other, and the books were jammed together later. Half of Paul's writings are forgeries. Paul didn't write them, but people liked what they said, so they put them in. So some of your chapter headings that say, "A letter written by Paul to..." are just complete lies.

The creators of South Park described the Book of Mormon as "Bible fan fiction," and that's still the most apt way of putting it. The Book of Mormon is a collection of war stories, sermons, and "tall tales" that try to sound like they come from the bible.

If you start to read sermons from the early 1800's, you'll be shocked to see how they are copied right into the Book of Mormon.

Isaiah was copied from a King James Version of the bible during Joseph Smith's time, errors and all. He just copied it right out. Same thing with the "Sermon on the Mount" that Jesus gives to the "Nephites." Copy and paste job.

It's very clear that Joseph and his buddies had a "Trinitarian" view of god when they wrote the Book of Mormon. The concept of the Mormon gods - two with bodies, one without came much later. It's also funny to hear the Book of Mormon be described as the "fullness" of the gospel when nothing about the Mormon church comes from there.

The view of the godhead, the temple craziness, polygamy, tithing, church structure all come much later.

It's very clear that the Mormon religion evolved over time just as every other religion does. And that's why there are so many inconsistencies. This isn't about a god who is "unchanging" directing his "prophets." It's about men who are making it up as they go along.

All of the biggest "faith promoting stories" in Mormonism have this evolution to them. Multiple accounts of the "first vision," differing angels and "prophets" visiting Joseph as time goes on - changes to the temple, changes to who can hold the priesthood, changes to the practice of polygamy. All of these things evolved over time because the religion comes from men who need to evolve the religion further.

If you want specifics, email me again with specific questions - and I can give you the resources. But for now I'm tired of writing, and I have one last bad piece of news for you.

The reason why your mission sucks so badly is because you are in a cult.

I'm sorry to give you that news, but the mission rules make the missionary experience a cult.

Stephen Hassan is an expert on cults and he has this thing called the "BITE" model that helps identify a cult. If you look it up - you'll see that the missionary rules hit all of the major aspects of a cult.

You want to be at home because your brain hasn't been able to exactly put into words what's wrong with being a missionary.

You're in a cult.

I'm sorry.

However, knowing that can help you cope in some ways, and the good news is that you aren't in a death cult. They can make it incredibly uncomfortable for you physically and emotionally, but you won't be given poison kool-aid. Remind yourself that you are a volunteer. If you don't want to do something, don't do it. They will use psychological warfare against you - but that's all they have.

If Mormonism were true, the leaders wouldn't have to treat you like garbage. The evidence would speak for itself. You wouldn't need to go door to door like salesmen from the 1950s.

You can email me at any time. I'm more than happy to hear you out and discuss anything with you.

Sincerely,

Raptor Jesus, Harbinger of Terrible News

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Posted by: iris ( )
Date: May 31, 2013 04:34PM

Nice email. Would've liked to have received it on my mission.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2013 04:38PM by iris.

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Posted by: iflewover ( )
Date: May 31, 2013 04:34PM

Beautiful, hard hitting letter RJ. I hope he shares it with his zone and district.

You didn't plant a seed there...that thing is full grown! :-)

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Posted by: Nevermo1 ( )
Date: May 31, 2013 04:35PM

An excellent letter!

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: May 31, 2013 04:47PM

This is a thing of beauty... Great E-mail.

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Posted by: Darkfem ( )
Date: May 31, 2013 04:58PM

He wrote to you because he knew Raptor Jesus would tell him exactly what he needed to hear.

Outstanding job!

Your letter should be archived.

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Posted by: Bite Me ( )
Date: May 31, 2013 05:02PM

Very nice. It's packed full of interesting info without being overwhelming. I'm interested to know if and what he replies.

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Posted by: Cali Sally ( )
Date: May 31, 2013 05:06PM

I wasn't born a Mormon but all the information you gave about the Bible and Jesus, I wish I had received from my parents growing up. And for their sake, I wish their parents had told them. My grandmother was raised outside Kirtland, OH and pretty much knew all this but, dang it, never told me. She kind of told my mother (her daughter) but was too passive and forgot to mention the lie that is Mormonism. My mother found out that grandmother used to go with church groups to try and teach Mormons in Kirtland how deceived they had been. Grandmother never thought for a minute that Mormonism would get a foothold in her family.

Thanks R.J. I needed to hear all that again. I reminds me that the research I did was correct. Strange how deep all the Mormon stuff gets in your brain. Hope the missionary listens to what you said.

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Posted by: Mormoney ( )
Date: May 31, 2013 05:18PM

Great letter. Learned some stuff myself in there. You know your sh!t. Nice job. I hope this helps him.

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Posted by: spaghetti oh ( )
Date: June 01, 2013 12:29PM

Me too! Great email, RJ.

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Posted by: judyblue ( )
Date: May 31, 2013 05:26PM


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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: May 31, 2013 05:31PM

What a great approach! I was deconverted all over again! It was like a refresher course.

I wish I could memorize it in case I ever get the chance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2013 05:32PM by blueorchid.

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Posted by: ginger ( )
Date: May 31, 2013 05:32PM

Amazing, RJ! I agree with Mormoney, you know your $hit. :)

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Posted by: En Sabah Nur ( )
Date: May 31, 2013 05:49PM

"Because you are allowed to read the scriptures, you should go through the Old Testament again...you'll see a very mean and petty god emerge."

This is sage advice. I've read through the Bible very thoroughly since my exit from faith, and continue to do so, and there's rarely a moment I don't find something morally reprehensible, logically problematic or internally inconsistent. The Bible is a mess.

The Book of Mormon is damned near unreadable now, with its horrible syntax, obvious plagiarisms and glaring anachronisms.

It's also clear that Mormonism today doesn't even remotely resemble any of the early sects of Christianity. If anything, it's closer to pharisaic Judaism than Christianity, with its focus on tradition and ritual.

For any missionaries who lurk here and don't know a way out, I would suggest that if you have any family or close friends who have left the church you contact them immediately for support and advice. There are also many kind people here who understand the desperate position that you're in and would be willing to help out in whatever way they can. Please reach out. You are not alone.

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Posted by: Satan Claus ( )
Date: May 31, 2013 07:50PM

I'm throwing in my accolades too. Nicely done by picking one topic, the bible, and covering that so thoroughly yet succinctly. Kudos to you. And lucky for those who receive it (hopefully he shares it with others).

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Posted by: amos ( )
Date: May 31, 2013 08:38PM

Is it Raptor Jesus or Raptor Korihor? ;-)

How did the missionary know to contact you? I'd love to help out other missionaries like that.

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Posted by: En Sabah Nur ( )
Date: May 31, 2013 08:58PM

For anyone transitioning out of Mormonism, missionary or not, Raptor's book is a fantastic read and worthy of your $3:

http://www.amazon.com/Passion-Raptor-Mormon-Apostasy-ebook/dp/B005IQKAQU/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1370048329&sr=1-1



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2013 08:59PM by homo sapiens maximus.

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Posted by: dogeatdog ( )
Date: June 01, 2013 04:18AM

+

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Posted by: serena ( )
Date: June 01, 2013 01:23PM


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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: June 01, 2013 05:22AM

Hope your health continues to improve.

Tom in Paris

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Posted by: buriedego ( )
Date: June 01, 2013 10:06AM

I am that missionary who sent the email. Some of you may remember the post a couple weeks back by me titled "currently serving missionary, wants out!!" Raptor Jesus seemed to know his stuff so I emailed him. Turns out he does know his stuff. I'm currently planning how to depart to go home. His email hit hard but it hit with authenticity (not even sure that's the correct word to use here)not sure what's ahead for me but I surely appreciate all the help.

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: June 01, 2013 10:20AM

You can't go wrong with Raptor Jesus. His book is amazing if you get a chance to read it. You also can't go wrong with using your own brain, intellect and gut instincts.

All the best. So glad you're here.

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Posted by: nailamindi ( )
Date: June 01, 2013 12:13PM

We're rooting for you!

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Posted by: spaghetti oh ( )
Date: June 01, 2013 12:35PM

Wow! Yay! Good for you. You'll find bucket loads of support here.

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Posted by: gentlestrength ( )
Date: June 01, 2013 12:43PM

This decision makes sense since you do not believe in the missionary message. I have not found the way to reconcile TBM with being a former Mormon, that isn't the program I think.

So, unless I have missed something special to your situation, today is the first day of the rest of your life. Time to get started! (Cliché, but seems apropriate here)

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Posted by: anon this time ( )
Date: June 01, 2013 02:17PM

Buriedego,

My best to you.

How are you able to access exmormon.org while serving a mission? My son is on a mission and there is NO WAY he has access to web sites without being observed.

I'm just wondering how you were able to pull this off. It might help me help my son at some point.

Best~

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Posted by: snb ( )
Date: June 01, 2013 12:50PM

That email would have hit me very hard in my missionary days.

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Posted by: subeam ( )
Date: June 01, 2013 01:09PM

+

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: June 01, 2013 01:33PM

So maybe you can tell us which part of the old testament actually happened and how you know.

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Posted by: En Sabah Nur ( )
Date: June 01, 2013 02:12PM

This isn't really the proper thread to discuss this, but there's historical evidence for much of the political and military accounts written after at the time and after Josiah's reign and the Deuteronomic Reform. Even before that, much of the record compiled around the 7th century and interpolated into the biblical record likely included actual historical content. There's been over 150 years of archaeological excavation and research that has supported some of the record.

However, this doesn't give any legitimacy to the god or gods of the Bible. It just means that the record isn't 100% false - just, like, 80-90% bullshit.

The point Raptor made, quite well in my opinion, is that there's no evidence for the great miracles of the scriptures, nothing corroborating the power and might of Israel, Yahweh, their prophets or the Patriarchs.

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