Your thoughts? There is ample evidence that she lied to make Joseph Smith look better and to corroborate his story. What do you guys think? Was she in on it, or was she just very gullible? If you could cite your sources, I'd love to hear what you think and read more on it.

My sources (woman's intuition) say she was in on it.

I think she knew about some things, & was kept in the dark abou others.

I also have my suspicions that Smith may have raped her into marrying him.

I have absolutely nothing concrete, but I agree with Infinite Dreams. I think she was aware of some things and in the dark about others.

However, keep in mind the world at that point in time. Women were still looked at as property and a woman who went against her husband was often looked at and sometimes prosecuted as, a criminal. What was a woman who was dependent on her husband for everything supposed to do? She had children to take care of. I can only imagine the anguish she must have felt over having to support Joseph's farfetched schemes and claims. I believe that she went along with what she had to out of necessity, due to her actions later in life and those of many of her descendants.

My opinion only, of course!

In short.
She was in on much of it from the get-go. It was all his idea.
The history makes that clear. He involved her as well as his mother, in particular with much of his claims- but left her out of the exact details from what I can determine.

His real ability was to get people to say they saw things they didn't see or things that were in cloth, or material and never actually viewed or weighed or measured, but they guessed!

However, it's my view that the last straw was his excuse for his female dallying, and his clever "inspiration" for polygamy. She often said she did not leave the church, they left her. She must have hated Brigham Young.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2013 06:51PM by SusieQ#1.

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He involved her as
> well as his mother

I think it was more a case of his mother encouraging the whole endeavor.

Alvin was the son the Smiths were grooming to be some sort of religious/mystical big deal, but he died. So the job fell upon Joe Jr.

It happens all the time.

I think Emma knew from the get go that JS was everything her father hated, that he was a slacker, a liar and scammer and a smooth talker. Be still my heart.

LOL DADDY ISSUES!!! Why didnt I see -t. That would explain alot.!! The carrage ride out,coming back married. bringing hubby home to do his translation . Tork daddy no end!

To me it's clear that to Emma appearance was everything. She never admitted that her husband had other wives, even though she knew damn well that he had other wives, and that it was a huge issue with her. I mean huge. Lying about it was more comfortable than facing the truth. She wasn't even honest with her own kids about it, even though they stayed loyal to his religious teachings. To me this shows that she either had an attachment to Joseph or an attachment to what he started, and was willing to be dishonest to continue that attachment. Considering Joseph treated her like dirt, I'm inclined to believe the latter, which means she was in on it. And if she was in on it, considering her "appearance is everything" attitude, there's no way she would ever expose the secret. With those characteristics in mind and assumed, essentially all of her accounts make sense. It's not proof, but it's a strong argument.

As for the raping thing when she married Joseph, she clearly lied about the circumstances surrounding her marriage. She said that she was staying at Josiah Stowell's house when Joseph came to see her, but why would she be staying at Stowell's house alone? Her neighbors and father said that Joseph took her from home while her father was at church and took her to Stowell's? Why is this such a big deal? Because if Joseph took her from her house on a Sunday and they were married on what turns out to have been a Thursday, that gives them at least 4 days and nights together essentially without supervision. Emma said that she didn't have any intention of marrying Joseph when she left home, but for some reason that changed some time during those four days (at least). Emma did appear to admire Joseph at the time, so I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that rape was involved. Joseph also seemed to have a way with women, so there's no reason not to suspect that they had a consensual extra-marital sexual relationship while staying in Colesville.

My $0.02. You know how to reach me for sources.

Here is an excerpt from Lucy's manuscript that I find suspect <*I'll describe my suspicions like this*>.

...we went to Emma Joseph’s wife and asked her if she knew aught of the record whether Joseph had taken them out or where they were She said she did not know <*Then what was she doing with Joseph several hours a few days earlier while he was allegedly taking the plates out of the box and putting them in a tree? Did Joseph seriously tell her nothing while she was sitting right there with him? I can't believe that he would specifically ask her to come along and then say nothing. Most likely he was telling her about his entanglement of lies he was trying to sort through at the time.*> he then related what he had seen and heard
Emma said she did not know what to do but she thought if Joseph was to have the record he would get it <*out of the tree? You see, even though the story that was later told said that by this time Joseph had the plates, nobody at the time seemed to know it, including Emma. Why, then, was it the neighbors that first suspected that he had the plates? Did they know something that Emma didn't, or was the story reverse-engineered as damage control or a way to convince his family that something serious was happening?*> yes said Mr Smith he will if he is watchful and obeidient but remmember that for a small thing Esau lost his blessing and birthright it may be so with Joseph
Well said Emma if I had a horse I would go and see him <*I'll bet she'd like to have a word with him!*> Mr Smith said she should have one in 15 minutes...
...Emma was soon on her way to her husband...
Joseph kept the urim and thumim constantly about his person as he could by this means ascertain at any moment if the plates were in danger & having just looked into them before Emma got there he perceived her coming and came up out of the well and met her <*and of course the only way we have to confirm this faith-promoting story is from what Lucy heard Joseph say after the fact. There is no precedent before or after of his stone having this power, neither is there any purpose for it. Emma apparently didn't deny the story, which means Joseph already knew that he could count on her to keep his lies/exaggerations secret. Most likely the plate scheme was fully hatched during this brief visit where Emma went to get Joseph, since immediately after is when he officially started telling people that he got them. Just an observation.*>



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2013 07:22PM by kimball.

I have to admit I wondered if a date rape had occured. Not being a virgin would definatly narrow your chances. But knowing that a had a way w/the ladies. & knowing that her father hated him stirr in alittle sympathy, Ol Jo loved to talk about how persecuted me was.(the song "as long as he needs me comes to mind) ya! It makd more sense now!

My brother the life-long CES employee, in an attempt to convince
me the BOM is what it claims to be, sent me a quote from Emma,
later in life, to the effect that Joseph back then couldn't even
write a decent letter--was, more or less, functionally
illiterate.

I responded by quoting, in total, letter Joseph Smith wrote
back then that not only showed a good command of the English
language, but also had similar grammatical peculiarities to the
first edition of the BOM.

Joseph Smith's 1832 "first vision" account is well-written in
his own handwriting which is a lot better than mine.

When Emma made this statement, she was the grand, old lady of
Mormonism, a member of the RLDS church and the mother of its
current prophet, who was the son of Joseph Smith. Would she
lie to support her and her son's position? Answer: yes.

Emma also said that JS never had any plural wives. So much
for her as a reliable source.

I think she was all three. I also think she relished being an "Elect Lady" as well as a "long suffering" one.

Joe couldn't have taken it as far as he did without her help, he repaid her sexually much the same as Bidamond her second husband did, and she was foolish to think that she could recapture her glory days as a queen and a helpmeet with her son(s.)

She covered her husband in his crimes, cried when she was the victim of them and went on to glory in her husband as a martyr.

She was as complicit as any early Mormon and more so given her position to alter Mormon history.

Brigham knew in her he had found Joe's weak spot. And she never gave Brigham the satisfaction of Brigham's "authority."

Wow. I always wondered about her statement that he couldnt pen a descent letter. Hmmm Ya mother of the current living Prophet!?! Im leaning more to fraud now.hmmm

This is just my seat-of-pants theory, no particular sources except for the known history of the Smith family.

Imagine the Smith family in the early 1800s getting by and making do, just like every other impoverished family. You grow some crops and maybe have a milk cow if you're lucky. You do odd jobs and barter for goods. Sometimes you move from place to place when you think it might enhance your economic opportunities.

Joseph Smith not only did odd jobs--chopping wood for his widowed neighbors and such, the record clearly shows he ran scams and cons to get money, and was well known in upper New York State for doing it.

It hardly seems possible under the circumstances that when Joe met Emma she didn't quickly become aware of his reputation. As time went by, they courted, got married, and lived together for 15 years while he took up the next scam, operating a religion.

Money followed, and Emma certainly knew where it came from. I'm sure she liked having money and she probably made an affirmative effort in a number of different ways to ensure that her income would continue.

She was in on it. Maybe not willingly. I think she was lied to a lot.

Her stance after he died was one she took in order to keep the religion up and running so her son could keep the money in the family. Can't really blame her after all she'd been through.

I always get a kick out of how Emma claimed she was his only wife.
She was correct, of course. The others were not legal wives!
She got the last word!
I've always liked her, for that, and other things.

I would have done the same thing. Don't forget her husband was dead, and she already had Briggy trying to take everything she had. The last thing she needed was a bunch of other women trying to make a claim to any assets that JS left behind.

I remember a mission president reading a story told by Emma in which she was talking about having the gold plates in the house and cleaning around them. I seem to remember her saying that she moved the plates, but I'm not sure. Does anyone else know that story?

Here's something excerpted from MormonThink:

Joseph's sister Catherine, while she was dusting in the room where he had been translating, "hefted those plates [which were covered with a cloth] and found them very heavy."[14] -H. S. Salisbury, paraphrasing Catherine Smith Salisbury I. B. Bell interview with H. S. Salisbury (grandson of Catherine Smith Salisbury), Historical Department Archives, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

http://www.mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm#platesweight

That could be it. Thanks!

I'm going to go with accessory to fraud not co-conspirator of the fraud. My real question is when did she find out that Joseph was a con man? How blind was she during the courtship, and did she play along at first or was she coerced into participation in the fraud.

I think Emma knew it was fraud and so did JS dad.

When people do the testimony of Joseph Smith thing to me, I reply with, "I think of Joseph Smith like Emma's father did. You can look it up."

I couldn't find anything on Emma's father after a quick search I only found that he did not approve of their marriage. Could you give me some links to read?

"Mormon Enigma," specifically. Mainly that he disapproved of Joseph and their relationship, and he thought he was a fraud and a charlatan.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,911536



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2013 07:07AM by steve benson.

I think the plates were just an eight place setting of disposable Chinet. That must be why the church doesn't have them anymore.

Here's what William Law said about her:

"Did Emma, the elect lady, come to your house and complain about Joseph?"

"No. She never came to my house for that purpose. But I met her sometimes on the street and then she used to complain, especially because of the girls whom Joseph kept in the house, devoting his attention to them. You have overrated her, she was dishonest."

"Do you mean to say that she was so outside of the influence Joseph had over her?"

"Yes, that is exactly what I mean. Let me tell you a case that will be full proof to you. Soon after my arrive in Nauvoo the two L[awrence] girls came to the holy city, two very young girls, 15 to 17 years of age. They had been converted in Canada, were orphans and worth about $8000 in English gold. Joseph got to be appointed their Guardian, probably with the help of Dr. Bennett. He naturally put the gold in his pocket and had the Girls sealed to him. He asked me to go on his bond as a guardian, as Sidney Rigdon had done. "It is only a formality," he said. Foolishly enough, and not yet suspecting anything, I put my name on the paper. Emma complained about Joseph's living with the L[awrence] girls, but not very violently. It is my conviction that she was his full accomplice, that she was not a bit better than he. When I saw how things went I should have taken steps to be released of that bond, but I never thought of it. After Joseph's death, A. W. Babbitt became guardian of the two girls. He asked Emma for a settlement about the $8000. Emma said she had nothing to do with her husband's debts. Now Babbitt asked for the books and she gave them to him. Babbitt found that Joseph had counted an expense of about $3000 for board and clothing of the girls. Now Babbitt wanted the $5000 that was to be paid Babbitt, who was a straight, good, honest, sincere man, set about to find out property to pay the $5000 with. He could find none. Two splendid farms near Nauvoo, a big brick house, worth from $3000 to $4000, the hotel kept by Joe, a mass of vacant town lots, all were in Emma's name, not transferred later, but transferred from the beginning. She always looked out for her part. When I saw how things stood I wrote to Babbitt to take hold of all the property left by me in Nauvoo and of all claims held by me again in people in Nauvoo. And so the debt was paid by me--Emma didn't pay a cent."

http://www.mrm.org/law-interview

I always wondered why she didnt go west with the rest, maybe she had had enough and stayed to quietly get on with her life. Maybe she felt she could put "the church and its dealing" behind her and let it go? We should of all looked at Emma at some time (I know I did) and asked the question .... why did the prohets wife not stay with the church? We could of all saved ourselves so many years of wasted time and money, because she had the answers and we should of seen it for what it was. Not the way the church taught us it was.

She never went west to live in a dry, unihabitable desert with Bringem Young. To me that says everything. If she really believed Joe had restored the one and only true church she would have had the faith to go west and suffer. She didn't because she knew it was a con.

The end.

Emma's a little of both, I think. She was probably in on the fraud... though I think she might have believed, because of what I read in D&C 132...sure sounds like ole Joe is trying to scare her that she'll be damned if she doesn't let him have all of his honies. Definitely a victim.

I THINK she was an unwilling conspirator. Faceing the realities of the day. Women couldnt vote (infact I understand it was legal to beat your wife as long as the stick was no bigger than your thumb;hence the term "rule of thumb". I dont think u could own property back than. And IF you divorced your husband you walked away w/only the clothes on your back,NOT YOUR KIDS!!Face w/these things I bet she played along. On her deathbed she still covered for him;BUT I think she was afraid he was right!