this question, with 'No Answer', is coming up more & more often; I think the reason for that is More Obvious than any answer...

the root of it seems to be the Absolute Nature of the PRESENTATION of/by TSCC; I doubt if they'll ever abandon that position.


-more important, More Real than whether or not the B of Mormon is accurate, More Important than seeing/talking w Jesus is...

the 'on the ground' way that TSCC interacts with people everyday, the peripheral issues, (Social, Economic, other) lessons that being a Mormon teaches. Which standards, on an everyday basis, it upholds, which it abandons, those that it 'Talks the Talk, but doesn't Walk the Walk. Those are the real issues.

the ethereal matters of 'the gospel of Christ' can be explained away when they can't be denied; the on-the-ground matters are in another category.

When ppl see LDS leaders preach one thing (GBH's Standing For Something comes to mind) and do the 180; That Matters, a lot more now b/c of the internet.

The model that TSCC was founded on & flourished with involved the suppression of information. ---GONE, GONE FOREVER---



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2013 01:51AM by guynoirprivateeye.

If they are aware of the real history, it won't matter as they are, in a way, CEO's of a large corporation hired to support the party line. They will say what is expected of them and what they are hired to say and do. They are typically dedicated to the LDS Church.

If they have any questions, they are not important, as at this point, they are invested in the religious, familial culture -- some for generations.

The LDS Church won't really change until younger men govern the church. It's a church that has evolved, changed and moved with the American culture, predominately. Today's LDS Church has some basic core beliefs, but it's not the same kind of church it was in the middle 1800's for instance.

I think the LDS Church could be very different in three or four more decades. I won't be around probably to see it though.

of course they know. but they are behind their product though.

it's like asking the CEO from pepsi if they know they are selling sugar water and it's not really good for you. would they quit their jobs? not in a million years.

Of course these conmen know it's a fraud. None of these "Especial Witnesses" have had a personal visitation from Jesus, the 3 Nephites or any angel.
But their sacred oaths of allegiance, their comfortable and luxurious lifestyles, their very generous financial rewards, their "expenses", their free health care, university places, etc. for their families, their hero-worship they receive from the members is all the incentive they need to continue with this shameful charade.

Flyinghigh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Of course these conmen know it's a fraud. None of
> these "Especial Witnesses" have had a personal
> visitation from Jesus, the 3 Nephites or any
> angel.
> But their sacred oaths of allegiance, their
> comfortable and luxurious lifestyles, their very
> generous financial rewards, their "expenses",
> their free health care, university places, etc.
> for their families, their hero-worship they
> receive from the members is all the incentive they
> need to continue with this shameful charade.

I didn't know that receiving a personal visitation from Jesus was in their job description. That's a strawman.

The Bishop of my local ward believes he is a prophet, seer and a revelator for the local ward. John Widtsoe wrote, ""In summary: A prophet is a teacher of known truth; a seer is a perceiver of hidden truth, a revelator is a bearer of new truth. In the widest sense, the one most commonly used, the title, prophet, includes the other titles and makes of the prophet, a teacher, perceiver, and bearer of truth." You can Google the whole Widtsoe statement.

We have to be careful not to claim more for the LDS 15 than what they are claiming for themselves. They are not claiming they are seeing Jesus and talking face to face with Jesus does not seem to be part of the job description. I think it is likely they do believe they are receiving revelation for the church according to their own responsibilities just as the local Bishop believes he is receiving revelation regarding who he should call to be Young Women's President.

In my parents ward a member of the 1st quorum of the 70 just last year stated over the pulpit that it was his belief that the apostles had all seen Jesus, that it was a requirement for the calling. And you wonder where the members get it from? Best part is this 70's son just last year claimed the church as a fraud.

Back in the day they were proclaimed as special witnesses of Christ. Now they are special witnesses to the name of Christ. If they haven't seen or talked to Christ then tell the members. But they lie by not stating the whole truth and let the myth grow. If they haven't seen Christ then hey are different than any other member except they get all the benefits of money, perks and fame. They are no dodos.

When you were a member, did you really think they talked directly to Jesus face-to-face? I sure never did. They never said anything to make me think they did either.

You were smarter than I because I bought it hook, line and sinker.

So did I. Hook, line, and sinker. The holy of holies and all that.

Embarrassed to admit that I did too. Completely, and why not? If everything I was taught was true, why wouldn't the same Jesus who visited Joseph Smith not have time for the Apostles.

I'm guilty of having believed.

Good recent article on this subject by Park Romney
http://www.parkromney.com/?view=mormon-fraud

I was at the bishop's wife's house months ago. One of the 70 had visited their ward and asked their daughter to speak. She was absolutely giddy over this event. I was struck by her adulation and almost worshipful attitude towards this 70. She went on and on about him, how amazing he was, how he told her he'd love to be her mission leader/president. She said, "we'll I told him to make it happen, after all he's got the power, yep he's got the power and the authority". Her mother sat smiling at this.

I was a little disturbed. It seemed weird that a 19 year old girl was starstruck by this old, old man.

Anyway, it never occurred to me to even wonder if the 70 and the 12 know it's a lie. I don't know why. But of course they know! They don't speak to God, Monson isn't a living prophet.

It's just disgusting. They're selling a dream and they're selling it to impressionable 19 year old girls. Damn it her parents should KNOW better!

Huh. No wonder Joe could keep acquiring young females.

There's probably been more discussion about this than almost any other subject (except for masturbation, of course). Each General Conference, Mormons swear allegiance to the Big Fifteen and "sustain" them as "prophets, seers, and revelators." I think it is abundantly clear to the Big Fifteen that they are not any of the three. They are not having visions, prognosticating, or giving anyone indications of what they should be doing to prepare themselves, other than paying, praying, and obeying. This fact is one of the things that actually makes me bitter about them, and feeling embarrassed for the members.

There is also the information provided by Grant Palmer, which someone has already pointed out. While none of us have anyway of knowing that it is actually true what he says, I could well believe it. We do know that they are shackled by chains of their own making, so that if they were ever to break with the church, they would not only lose their cushy incomes, but everything else, including retirement. There would be confiscations and probably lawsuits that would be ruinous to any leader who were to pursue "apostasy". We're talking about a group of old men here, many of whom are frail and most of whom are pompous asses and bloviating pricks who love the adoration of their fan base. So while they probably all know of a surety that they are not what their fans think they are, the situation is quite moot. They will remain who they say they are because, nice and respectful men or not, or bloviating pricks or not, they have no other recourse but to take part in the facade. They are, in short, screwed.

cludgie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There's probably been more discussion about this
> than almost any other subject (except for
> masturbation, of course). Each General Conference,
> Mormons swear allegiance to the Big Fifteen and
> "sustain" them as "prophets, seers, and
> revelators." I think it is abundantly clear to the
> Big Fifteen that they are not any of the three.
> They are not having visions, prognosticating, or
> giving anyone indications of what they should be
> doing to prepare themselves, other than paying,
> praying, and obeying. This fact is one of the
> things that actually makes me bitter about them,
> and feeling embarrassed for the members.
>
> There is also the information provided by Grant
> Palmer, which someone has already pointed out.
> While none of us have anyway of knowing that it is
> actually true what he says, I could well believe
> it. We do know that they are shackled by chains of
> their own making, so that if they were ever to
> break with the church, they would not only lose
> their cushy incomes, but everything else,
> including retirement. There would be confiscations
> and probably lawsuits that would be ruinous to any
> leader who were to pursue "apostasy". We're
> talking about a group of old men here, many of
> whom are frail and most of whom are pompous asses
> and bloviating pricks who love the adoration of
> their fan base. So while they probably all know of
> a surety that they are not what their fans think
> they are, the situation is quite moot. They will
> remain who they say they are because, nice and
> respectful men or not, or bloviating pricks or
> not, they have no other recourse but to take part
> in the facade. They are, in short, screwed.

I think they believe they are receiving revelation for the LDS Church even if they aren't having face to face visits with Jesus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBvh-ijsoAU

apparently prophet seer and revelator really means big dumb ass
since Hinckley held the office

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UncZBWcIPL8