Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: Richard Foxe ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 08:47AM

This has not been mentioned. All people recalling Playboys or even video tapes are not considering the quantum leap provided by the internet. At a time when young people are grappling developmentally with impulse control, here is a medium that can expose them in 30 minutes to as many sex acts as an adult male 50 years ago might see in his entire lifetime. The bombarding novelty triggers a great dopamine rush which is the addictive component, not necessarily the amount of time spent, or the neglect of other activities. While reinforcing the attitude that people/women ARE bodies primarily existing to satisfy one's appetites, it's the disruption of brain chemistry that is most alarming--and that can't easily be recovered from.

Check out Gary Wilson's TED talk on "The Great Porn Experiment" at

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 09:57AM

Here's the problem with the whole dopamine argument.

I've never seen any of the proponents of this idea differentiate between committed sex and any "deviant" sex / porn. The same drugs are produced by the brain in either case. According to this argument all sexual arousal of any kind is addictive and harmful. Also there is no indication that there would be more dopamine produced viewing hardcore porn than softcore porn. Internally the excitement and arousal mechanisms are the same.

Additionally dopamine is produced by your brain for MANY reasons. For example, exercise, especially intense exercise causes the release of lots of dopamine.

Finally, your definition of addiction is completely lacking. Addiction is defined by the impact it has on the rest of your life. Something is an addiction only if it is abused to the point that it is causing the rest of your life to be out of control. Basically it is a cycle - you act out with the addictive behavior. This causes your life to suck. Since your life sucks you hide from life by engaging in the addictive behavior. Which makes your life suck more. Which makes you act out more...

Doing things over and over in a controlled way because you like it and it is pleasurable for you is, in fact, not addiction. It only becomes addiction if it gets out of control and is negatively impacting your ability to cope with life - in other words it is used as a coping mechanism, but in a way that is destructive.

I think many arguments can be made that a 14 year old viewing hard core porn is a bad idea - however, you failed to make any of them.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2013 10:28AM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Makurosu ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 10:13AM

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 11:24AM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: spanner ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 09:44PM

bc, did you watch the TED talk linked to? There is another by Philip Zimbardo that touches on similar issues:

I agree with you about dopamine/addiction, and no one would suggest that porn=addiction in the majority of cases.

The issue is abuse (and anything can be abused), and that modern porn delivery results in a "super stimulus" that far exceeds anything the brain evolved to cope with. In a small minority of cases there can be problems.

I for one would not freak out if (when) my young son starts watching internet porn. I would, however, make him aware of the potential risks outlined by Zimbardo, Wilson, and others.

ETA: I think discussing the risks of porn (overdoing it, reality vs fantasy and realtionships etc) is as important as discussing the risks of alcohol or gambling when my son gets interested in alcohol and is old enough to access the casino or pub pokies (we have gambling machines in bars here, they are a plague in some areas).

The risks of porn have nothing to do with "morality" and the fact that there are risks should NOT be used to as a hammer to pound someone else with your views on "morality". We don't consider eating disorders to be a morals problem, afterall.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2013 10:02PM by spanner.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 11:10PM

Yes - I had watched part of it and went back and finished it.

I think he makes some good points - however, I also noticed that his references were pretty weak and he did a lot of mental leaping based on a little bit of data.

What it does sound like is concrete is that excessive porn may cause ED for some people. I definitely agree with the premise of the video that a teenager exposed to lots and lots of porn to the point of being addicted to it is a very bad thing. Personally I think a teenager being exposed to porn at all is a bad thing - but not something to freak out over unless it is super excessive.

So yeah, if you are watching so much porn that your brain is so goofed up that you can no longer get an erection, this video has some important insights - otherwise its a lot of inferences and guesswork.

I did like some of how he describe the addiction. If it is all you live for and the rest of your life has no meaning except just getting your next view of porn - you've got a problem.

The mistake many make, and I think Foxe was doing so above is to equate the viewing of any porn with an addiction.

I agree with the overall premise of the video that internet porn has much more potential variety and stimulation and thus creates an increased opportunity to become addicted to it.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2013 11:14PM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Bradley ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 09:59AM

I'm surprised nobody mentioned CTDs: computer transmitted diseases. Kids need to be warned about the dangers of visiting porn sites. I've had to wipe and do a clean install on my family's computer several times because of this.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 10:01AM

It does help if you use protection...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 11:25AM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: spanner ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 09:47PM

Yes, I have had ongoing issues. Have had to have a talk with dh about security, the function of the "incognito" window and the like. I have had to restrict the kids from using dad's computer due to the risk of unwanted popups and stuff he accidentally downloaded!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: smithscars ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 10:11AM

This reminds me of the slippery slope argument against marijuana that once people start then it leads to harder drugs. Not real.

Look at countries who have legalized either porn or drugs and the abuses go down. I don't have links but look at Spain for drug legalization & Denmark for porn.

On the other hand Utah has a community of people whose choices are restricted by religion and ask yourself why is porn so rampant in Utah under restriction?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Erick ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 10:41AM

Some of you may have heard of a group out "there" making the same kinds of arguments, called "Fight the New Drug". They have an article on their website titled "how is pornography like drug addiction". In their article they make all kinds of "sciency" sounding claims about dopamine and drug addictions, citing all kinds of researchers. I emailed about five of the researchers cited about a year ago, provided a link to the article and specific statements in the article attributed to their research. I received about three replies, none of which endorsed any of the material associating pornography compulsions with drug addictions. In short, there are problems with the term "addiction", but even more in associating naturally regulated dopamine releases with chemically assisted dopamine releases. Furthermore, it appears that the brain is non-discriminant in the way natural dopamine releases are triggered. Dopamine can be released by sex, sexual stimulation, laughter, food (eating and smelling), reading a good book, or even watching a baby smile.

There are people who develop sexual compulsions, but these are behavioral characteristics that need to be understood, rather than necessarily physiological issues. By the same token people can develop compulsions for all kinds of behaviors, such as work, hobbies (sports??), exercise, self-image, gambling, etc.

I think this is important because far too much emphasis, in my opinion, about porn is focused on a puritanical world-view, that forces us to misunderstand the issue. Some of the real problems that I see with pornography and it's effect on the user are that it helps foster unhealthy attitudes about proper social-sexual relationships. How should a woman be treated, both in terms of respect and sexual fulfillment, etc. Additionally, the bigger problem that goes unmentioned is that the porn industry itself, particularly with the unrestrained internet channel of distribution, supports the international sex trade. In other words, those who view porn are often unwittingly contributing to literal acts of sexual oppression. Not just some kind of ideological oppression, but literal sex slave kind of stuff. Too much focus on the so called "sin", and effects on the user, cause us to overlook this far more important fact.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Richard Foxe ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 10:55AM

about the industry angle. Similar to marijuana--may be relatively harmless in itself, but what about the channels that distribute it? Don't buy the fantasy that so much of the internet porn is just individuals or couples uploading their own tapes, or that the weed is homegrown.

As for other points, it looks like no one's watched or cares to comment on the video clip...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: smithscars ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 11:06AM

Right, but whose fault is it really?

I put the blame on the controllers that are trying to control other peoples freedom. They create the black market just as much or more than the people wanting to do it, drugs/porn. That's why other civilized societies made changes to the laws and had positive results.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: schlock ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 11:26AM

Some quick points:

14 year old boys (and 14 year old girls) are crazy-horny. And? I can guarantee you that the 14 year old boy that watches porn on his iphone is still going to have his mind blown the first (and second and third and . . .) time he has sex with another human being.

The mormon church instilled some pretty heavy dysfunctions in my brain regarding sex.

Egypt, which could be argued is a very sexually-repressed country, is plagued with violence and abuse towards women (FGM, rape, domestic abuse, etc.) The Netherlands, which is a more libertine society (legalized prostitution, legalized drugs, etc.), not so much violence and abuse towards women (and where it does exist, it tends to cluster among the muslim immigrant population). Correlation?

Healthy attitudes about sex and sexuality are healthy for society (IMHO). Puritanical and victorian sexual mores (of which the mormon church is an offshoot) are not emotionally healthy (again IMHO) for individuals or society. Anecdotally, refer to the numerous threads here at RFM, especially from women, trying to understand their own sexuality, and trying to learn that sex is good and healthy, after years of teachings to the contrary (by everybody they knew). Years of brain-scrambling that takes years of deciphering to unscramble. What a waste!

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Fuck shame. (And fuck anyone that is a proponent of the same.)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2013 11:27AM by schlock.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: icanseethelight ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 10:55AM

My wife just caught my 13 yr old looking at a pic of a girl in a bikini. She freaked, I laughed.

My kids have ipods, smartphones, laptops, etc. and I have no filters on anything, and it is not a big deal. Because I talk to my kids about it, more than they want me too. Being able to talk about sex and relationships is key to healthy children.

I just had "The Talk" with my 11 yr old son. He was far more upset about the fact we lied about Santa than he was about how babies are made, and all the sex stuff.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: RegPosterButAnon4This ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 11:18AM

Just wanted to let everyone know that I am reading all of your comments and appreciate the input (Oh, and RJ... I nearly had to do the heimlich on myself after reading yours...)

To clarify a few things --
I absolutely do not want the bishop involved in any way. For the moment, I have talked my husband out of that BUT as he and my son are both devout TBMs, that could change at any time. As one poster pointed out, my son's own TBMness may drive him to feel a need to 'confess'. I hope to circumvent that by intervening effectively.

Yes, I am certain it is the son and not my spouse (and if it was my spouse, I wouldn't care.) The computer is in a family area. Each family member has a separate 'account' but anyone under age 18 is required to give me their password. If I randomly check and the password has been changed without me being notified of the updated password, they lose computer privileges for a very long time. I suspect this son figured that I just checked his account last week so he would be 'safe' for another week or so and thus didn't bother to clear his history right away. He does not have a smartphone but most of his friends do.

I guess my main goal is to strike the right balance between letting him know that this is "normal" (no matter what his father or his church say) but that the depictions are not typical of what "normally" happens in a real relationship. But I have to do this in a way that will appease his horrified TBM dad who feels that some sort of extreme punishment is in order... without actually shaming or punishing the kid.

You know, RJ might actually have been on to something... lol

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 11:20AM

the hypocrisy of a bunch of sexual hysterics who LIVE on an online chat room, blathering about the "addiction" of a 14 year old looking at nudie pics while he whacks his junk is beyond the pale.

well, i guess that it should come as no surprise that people on an exmo site wouldn't know the first thing about the REALITY of the life of a 14 year old boy...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 11:29AM

You mad bro?

Seriously though there have been some good responses, I think I can say what it was like to be 14, being not even 4 years older

The real hypocrisy is the bishop
I don't think those trying to help when asked for advice are hypocrites

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: jl1718 ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 12:04PM

Seriously, I respect everyone's opinions on here, but are you guys aware that most men and boys view porn once in awhile. Most do, that is a simple fact. You may not know it, because most people keep it private it and hide it well, but most guys at least once in awhile get on a computer and look at some porn. It's not life altering, it does not destroy anyone, very very very few people are actually addicted to it.....

Most guys who view are relieving some sexual frustration
Just saying, I cannot tell you how many guys in my deacons quorum viewed porn, and that was 12 years ago. It's pretty normal.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 12:10PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: schlock ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 02:03PM

Ms. Schlock loves viewing porn, occasionally.

And other female posters here at RFM have indicated that they watch porn.

It's not just a boy / man thing.

Women have "needs" that have to be "relieved" just like men do...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Old Ager ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 04:45PM

The amount, degree and availability of erotic material has skyrocketed in just the last 25 years or so. Everyone agrees on that.

If pornography causes the massive social damage that many religions (and others) claim, then we should see a complimentary climb in the destruction of society everywhere.

Is there a second skyrocketing curve that matches the first?

The first curve has gone through the ceiling -- has criminality, divorce, sex abuse, STD's etc. followed in a correspondingly steep manner?

If not, then erotica needs to be view more realistically. As the Dutch put it: "Allow, but control."

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Jesux of Nazdaq ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 05:00PM

Which LDS apostle said something like:

"it only takes a minute for a child to see an image that stays with him for a lifetime"

Somehow I don't think it's true unless that child is prompted to keep remembering the seeing of it as a big ordeal...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 05:06PM

I tried to find a clip but couldn't find one. This is after a teen boy is "caught" with porn and his BIL is asked to talk to him by his mother.

Tod: Can I speak frankly, no holds barred? That is one messed up little dude. We can talk straight? Um, a few months ago, Garry got his first... boner. You know what that is?
Helen: If memory serves.
Tod: Aw, great! Anyway, since then, he's been... uh... slappin' the salami. No offense.
Helen: No.
Tod: Apparently, he's goin' for a world record. Anyway, he was afraid there was something wrong with him, you know? Like he was a pervert or something. I told him that's what little dudes do - we've all done it. It made him happy.
Helen: Garry was happy?
Tod: He even smiled! I never even knew he had teeth!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Bite Me ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 08:41PM

That's hilarious.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 09:19PM

From America's War on Sex, Marty Klein, Ph.D.

[T]he manipulative, extreme claims of the public health model should be challenged. . . . [W]e must loudly say that for the most part, adult material *does not cause*these awful consequences. [I]t's true that many personal and community difficulties *coexist* with adult material. That's because the use of adult material is so widespread, not because it typically causes problems.

[T]he fact that a very small percentage of viewers have personality disorders is no more reason to banish porn from everyone than the fact that some people can't digest dairy products is good enough reason to remove half-and-half and Haagen-Dazs from supermarkets. p. 129

There is no systematic research evidence available which suggests a causal relationship between pornography and morality. There is no systematic research which suggests that increases in specific forms of deviant behavior, reflected in crime trend statistics (e.g. rape) are causally related to pornography. There is no persuasive evidence that the viewing of pornography causes harm the average adult, or that exposure caused the average adult to harm others. . . or that exposure causes the average adult to alter established sex practices. --H.B McKay and D.J Dolff "The Impact of Pornography: An Analysis of Research and Summary Findings. p. 131

In European countries where restrictions on porn have been lifted, incidence of rape over the last 20 years has stayed constant or declined. Between 1965-1982, after Denmark made pornography more accessible to the public, sex crimes against female children dropped by 80% -- Brad Kutchinsky "Pornography and Rape: Theory and Practice? Evidence from Crime Data in Four Countries Where Pornography Is Easily Available"

The aggregate data on rape and other violent or sexual offenses from four countries where pornography, including aggressive varieties has become widely and easily available during the period we have dealt with would seem to exclude, beyond any reasonable doubt, that this availability has had any detrimental effects in the form of increased sexual violence -- Brad Kutchinsky--"Pornography, Sex Crime and Public Policy" pp. 131-132

Participants exposed to explicit sexual content without accompanying violence did not become desensitized. -- Linz, Donnerstein and Adams in "Measuring the Effects of Sexual Content in the Media: A Report to the Kaiser Family Foundation p. 132

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Richard Foxe ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 10:32PM

The people making the neurological case against it (in particular, Gary Wilson and Marnia Robinson--see't cite interpersonal effects, except perhaps E.D.The impetus for 'help' about this doesn't come from parental, religious, or social policing, but from users themselves who recognize the changes in their own responses. For this reason, I think most of the posters on this are arguing against the wrong thing and citing the wrong evidence.

I offered this perspective not in support of increased repression and moral policing, but to let people see that there is perhaps a cogent underside to the argument. I haven't seen anyone responding here make that shift and try to understand this point. The reason for raising this point? Don't we have a responsibility to investigate it and teach the truth about it, especially to young people, rather than let them proceed on their unguided own, in the name of what's "natural" (the argument is that the internet here is most unnatural), and let the chips fall where they may? But I think there are too many vested personal and ideological interests on both sides of the issue to be objective about it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 10:39PM

I see your point. "Neurons that fire together, wire together." However, you are still offering a norm, ideology, and an interest whether you are explicit about it or not. I am fine with discussing what we think the norm should be or not be, but neither you nor anyone else is a non-interested, non biased party. It also not a new insight that what we practice persists, even if we want to dress it up in the language of neuroscience.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2013 10:41PM by robertb.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 10:48PM

Photographic porn has been with us since the French Post card. It doesn't seem like it has prevented humans from accomplishing anything.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: smithscars ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 11:03PM

I watched it.

I agree that it can be a problem and cause problems for people. I just don't agree with his points that people have to graduate up to different porn and also to do it more and more.

I think that we can probably all agree that too much of anything can be a bad thing and the same holds true for porn, or should I say masturbation because that's what it's a referencing right? I mean it is ending up talking about a big negative beings erectile distinction right? Now its getting into physical problems caused by chemical reactions in the brain and body fluid loss that could probably be corrected by nutrition and moderation.

It made me think yeah, sure, dudes jacking off every time they can get a new one are going to require more varying porn plus they're depleting their bodies. No wonder the feel so much better after quitting.

Now if they just pace themselves and eat a bunch of roasted pumpkin seeds theyd feel better too, plus they can stay at whatever level of porn or even victorias secret... Yes I have gained some wisdom over the years. ;)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: smithscars ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 11:18PM

By the way, I couldn't get your other link to open on interpersonal effects so maybe I'm a little off base.

Speaking of neurons and since I brought up marijuana, are you aware of the us government having a patent on cannabanoids (from marijuana) and how it is helpful in brain repair from parkinsons, alzheimers and stroke?

After all these years having the government tell us how bad it is and was protecting us from it.

It reminds me of the Mormon church protecting us from outside information that might shake our faith only to come to learn from its own history all of the lies & coverups

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Richard Foxe. ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 11:34PM


It makes sense to me, and I've watched my own experience, too. But I'm always trying to see the subversive, politically incorrect side of things, and once-politically incorrect porn use has now become the new political correctness for many. These people don't see any difference between French postcards and cyber-ero-surfing through hundreds of sites, each with hundreds of categories, each with thousands of clips. Same thing?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: May 28, 2013 11:59PM

When I was a teenager - we really had to work for our porn. We had to walk barefoot, uphill in the snow just to see some saggy titties.

Now these children can just get on their Nintendoboxes and Playcubes and watch a man get reamed to death by a horse.


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: May 29, 2013 12:27AM

Ahahah! Laughing so hard :)

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In

Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed. Please start another thread and continue the conversation.