Yet another e-mail from my dad.. these are starting to irritate me

Hi Nathan,

You  asked about miracles in our last discussion. Attached is an address about miracles that was given in Calgary about 13 years ago. Read the address with an open mind as it may answer some questions you might have. Also, I have some examples of miracles  that have happened.  Some were on my mission and some were not. If you wish to know about them I could tell you if you ask. My testimony is not based on them so I usually do not talk about them often.

The thing about miracles is that they work by faith. Without faith there are no miracles. Jesus was unable to perform miracles in the area where he was raised up as a child because the people did not believe (Matt.13:54-58). Also, miracles are not done to try to convince people of the truth as this is never as powerful of a witness as a spiritual witness. Often Jesus asked people that he healed, or helped in a miraculous way, to not tell anyone (here are examples of this: Matt. 8:3-4, Matt. 9:30, Mark 7:36). He knew that testimonies based on miracles were weak compared to testimonies based on a spiritual confirmation of the truth. This is also mentioned in the address I have attached.

Also, for your information from our conversation, here are some New Testament references regarding homosexuality (Romans 1:24-27,1 Corinthians 6:9, look in the topical guide of the bible if you want to see other references). God has never OK'd this practice. He loves the sinner because loves his children, but not the sin.
I hope this helps in your search for truth.
Love you Nathan,
Dad


Attached document:
http://www.lds.org/ensign/2001/06/miracles?lang=eng

I don't know how or if you responded to the last one. But maybe it is time to just stop the discussions, email OR in person. When he starts up with you just firmly let him know that you are done discussing any topic that has to do with religion or faith. Let him know you will not be responding to his emails or if you are together in person you will be changing the subject and leaving if he tries to insist. Then follow through. I'm new to this so I'm not sure how long this has been going on for you but you are the only one who can stop it. But I do suggest not getting mad. Just refuse to engage in his crazy desire to win you back to the fold.

I did not respond to the last one, I guess this is like an addition to the last email, trying to elicit a response I guess

Can't you just say, "Thanks Dad but no thanks. I'm not going to read any of the stuff you send because I just don't believe any of it is relevant at any level. I'm even afraid to respond now because it gives you the hope that I'm actually going to change in some way. I'm not. Please give it a rest. I know you mean well but this discussion just isn't going to go anywhere. This will be my last response unless you can talk about something besides religion .

Your dad needs you to create the closure or he's just going to keep going on and on. At least that's how it seems to me.

He deserves no response

I just can't wait until I can get out of the house!!

Odd, indeed.

Sorry. I missed that you lived in the same house. Not responding is probably the best way to handle it. How soon do you think you will be able to leave home?

Shortly after highschool ends, this summer

It's because I demolish him in spoken discussion lol

So he sends emails with church talks as evidence to try and support his positions

It's not worth responding to with real evidence because he will dismiss it as anti material

So whatever

It must be driving you crazy but at least there is light at the end of the tunnel. Only thing I can think of to tell you is keep your head down and hang in there. Have you got a long term plan and a good support system?

Well I have a few friends but other then that I'm on my own

Planning to go to vancouver with a friend that is going to school there

Going it alone can be rough but you sound like an intelligent guy. If you can hook up with some RfM contacts or exMormon group in Vancouver they might be able to give some support while you find a job and get settled. Don't be afraid to seek help and please keep safe. You are pretty young to be on your own so don't lose touch with your friends. Do you have siblings who are sympathetic with your situation?

Yes, my oldest sister in grade 9 also disagrees with the church and we agree that our parents are psychopaths.
-we get along quite well but my parents don't let us talk often

On a side note she is theist, whereas I am atheist

Not letting you talk to your sister? That is VERY bizarre. I hope you can keep in touch with her after you leave because it sounds like she's going to have a hard time once you are gone. Is your dad the same way with her or does he not know about her disbelief? Again, I think you both should keep your heads down and stay out of his line of fire as much as possible.

I thought it was bizarre as well

That caused a great conflict btw, you can look that up in earlier post by me if you'd like

"miracles are not done to try to convince people of the truth as this is never as powerful of a witness as a spiritual witness"
So proof doesn't make you believe, it's being brainwashed that makes you believe.... right...

Ikr. It makes no sense

I explained that during our actual verbal conversation but he brought it back to faith as usual

I would just ignore it as you did the last one. You might want to set up an online email account (that your sister can use without interference) before you leave home. That way you can keep the lines of communication open with her.

Good luck and keep us posted.

I am always amazed at how believers support their belief by referring to supernatural occurrences in their own lives: miraculous healings, startling coincidences, answers to prayers, visions, speaking in tongues, feelings of transcendent illumination.

It never seems to occur to them that the devout believers of ALL religions have the identical kinds of experiences, and they all attribute them to the actions and influence of the particular god they believe in or the particular religion they have adopted. If the miracle that proves to the Catholic that Catholicism is true, how can the Evangelical Christian deny it, and maintain that his own miracle proves that his brand of Christianity is the "true" one? And both of them deny the miracles that prove to a Mormon that Mormonism is true.

One explanation sometimes given is that "MY miracles are caused by God, but YOURs are caused by Satan!" The obvious question then is, how can you tell the difference (without indulging in circular reasoning)?

Another explanation is that God ("MY God, of course") grants miracles to everyone, because he loves everyone equally. But the objection to that explanation is that God is thus confirming all those OTHER people in their false beliefs, and thus keeping them from the true religion. Why would he do that?

It is also interesting to note that where one finds such phenomena most frequently is in the more extreme religious cults, and in the inmates of mental hospitals.

A Nail in the coffin for our verbal discussion was when he was talking about spiritual confirmation I said that all religious people feel that same way

As for miracles I ask why we see no major miracles now that we have the capability to record them, and that whenever anything happens like some guy miraculously recovering from a disease religious people always jump to the conclusion of miracle simply because we can't explain why

Hey you know your real name is showing in this letter right?

Ya I don't care at this point

So, the first rule of Miracle Club, is that we don't talk about Miracle Club?

I'm calling bullshit. They don't happen.

Hahahaha!! Love the reference :)

Fun stuff, I enjoyed the yarn about the temple being protected by god's angels. A completely outmanned rebel force on the temple grounds decides to surrender, so the church is true!

Yup! But that is somehow proof.. of something

I say given the fact that you have to live there, keep your head down. but if you really want to point out the fallacy in the reasoning, ask why God hates amputees. those are the one class of people that do not get miracles.

you can even be miraculously cured of cancer, there are tons of stories of people that call that a miracle in their lives from all types of religions, just lose a limb, arm, finger, leg, and you don't get that back. instead you only get blessings to live with it somehow.

Stop reading those messages.
Set your spam filter to his address plus key words in the body.
Send the messages to the trash. You can still get messages from him as long as the message does not contain the key words.

It doesn't bother me that much

While I am in the house I will not do this, when I leave however I likely will

I think it's funny he is e-mailing you from inside of the house lol. It's like a top secret operation or something.

Well I think there area number of reasons for this

1. We rarely talk

2. If he tried to bring this up I would not engage him 80% of the time and simply say, I know you are not willing to change yourself so there is no purpose in arguing with you

3. When we do talk I bring up many well thought out points that are difficult for him to reconcile with his beliefs warranting a search on lds.org for relevent info, which he then emails to me lol

it sounds like your Dad is a typical passive aggressive person lol. I'm just glad you are still in the house just to have shelter until you can leave.

Is is not passive aggressive but simply just agressive in many forms

he's being passive by living in the same house as you, and then aggressive by sending you these jackass emails. That's what I meant.

But he also physical attacked me, not what I would call passive, and other things like that that are very overtly agressive

He is passive aggressive, but he is other types of aggressive too

I agree. He is his own breed!

I agree with the jackass comment though

Oh and i saw him driving the car today on a tank that I filled

!!! wtf?

Wouldn't be the first time :/

He is fully entrenched in his delusion. I think he probably wants you to do well in life regardless of your religious choices. Some parents are so scared that their kids will somehow turn into an evil person if you don't believe in gods. It's better to have a dad that cares about your path than a dad that is doing crack and doesn't care if you have food in your stomach.

Best to just wait it out and keep giving him bits of info about why it's necessary to have evidence to back up your beliefs. You are lucky to live in Canada, a country very tolerant to all kinds of ideas. He may come around one day, but in the meantime just focus on school, getting into college and having loads of fun.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2013 07:58PM by orange.

:) that's the plan!

You will never debate anyone out of the church. Some people enjoy debating this stuff with someone who will not listen. I personally don't. When someone is ready to look and listen, then it's great to give them pointers to information and to let them search for themselves. Until they are ready for that, it's a waste of time. I would simply request that religion not be discussed any longer. After all, there are plenty of other topics in the world.

I know, which is why I don't engage most of the time

I'm too late probably, but a few years before I left CES I noticed something that contradicted everything I had been taught and was teaching in classes.

Jesus and most other miracles in the Book of Mormon were not brought about because of faith. Just the opposite. They were performed to help someone obtain faith, or to a group of people who were the opposite of faithful.

I am no longer a believer, but I thought it was interesting and it got the attention of my CES colleagues when I shared my results.

Anyway, your dad's statement to you that you need to have faith to be a part of a miracle hit me.

(I am no longer a believer, but was interested in the post.)
ken