This may be awfully painful for a lot of you to watch. I was very uncomfortable just hearing some of the things they would do to these young men just to try to get them to become straight, but failed. This really happened and my heart goes out to those individuals who had to endure that kind of treatment.

Nothing visually graphic, just graphic language as they explain the scenes that unfolded in their horrible experiences. I don't think this sort of thing goes on anymore and it never should have in the first place, which wasn't too long ago. Just glad that no longer exists. Just another reason the Mormon church is blind, cruel and naive to a lot of things.

watch at your own discretion.

Mormons and Gays: Electroshock!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A8HRqQ4NgY&feature=watch_response

Words can't describe what I want to say...I wept while watching this...I feel so bad I used to be part of a "church" that would do this to people...

Consider that two years ago I put up a thread on the old board about a lesbian fare of mine who--while her partner went inside to get my my $7 fare--disclosed to me that they had tried to change her and had shocked her...

"This was while you were at BYU?" I asked, and she said yes, that they had hooked electrodes to her "private parts" and shown her pictures of naked women and shocked her when she responded.

Men weren't the only victims, but I checked this out with a number of RFM regulars--some gay--and they all agreed this was the first woman who had disclosed it had been done to her.

I haven't talked to this woman since last spring, but I expect to in the near future, and yes, I notified a number of national pundits--including Rachel Maddow--about the practice.

I'm hopeful she will come forward with her story at some point, although I would also understand it if she chose not to go public with it.

BTW, I'm doubtful the woman was much past 30, and I'm guessing the practice was perpetuated way into the 90's, if not into the 21st Century.

We owe a huge debt of gratitude to courageous individuals who've come forward.

yes, I'd have to agree with everything you said. I wasn't aware they did it to women too. that's messed up. I wonder if the Church has been found guilty and sued big time over this yet?

How was the church not sued or something over this? This is awful!

And now you want LGBT victims to sue the cult big time over this? God are you naive.

First, the cult learned the art of plausible deniability decades ago, so precisely who are you going to prosecute? Hmmm?

Second, look at all those who survived the Holocaust, and how many of them can you find who are willing to go to the ends of the earth to prosecute their tormentors and torturers? Damned few, relative to all who suffered.

So after you've been mind-fucked by the cult for your entire life, and had your penis and testicles or your vagina fried off by the assorted patented apparati of Dr. Robert Card, do you honestly think you'd have the emotional wherewithal to go up against a gang of thugs who will smear you as a liar and a pervert all over town, blackmail you through your family to silence you at any cost, try to bring a case to trial and convince a jury of their peers that you are right, and persist until you reach a verdict in your favor?

If you think you can persuade even one person who has undergone this to go through that, good luck. Let us know here about your success because some people here will give you a medal. There have been concerted efforts to get this into media outlets and every time it fails miserably. I'm sure you can figure out why, but just in case you can't here's a clue: Love Does Not Conquer All.

I wasn't talking about giving any kind of love and respect to those who have done you wrong. I was talking about doing our best to move forward with love and not continue to allow ourselves to dwell in our own pride and misery. Please go back to my love conquers all post and reread it. It has nothing to do with what others do to us, but has everything to do with how we choose to treat ourselves. I'm not clueless, you just chose to completely misconstrue and misunderstand everything I said. Please think before you speak. I would appreciate it.

Every once in a while someone new at RfM discovers one or another of these videos or stories and comes here all shocked when they find out that the cult they grew up revering could do this to teh gheyz. Great. I'm glad you're learning something. Congratulations.

That being said, you have an extremely naive attitude about self-love if you think that anyone who grew up gay and Mormon can just put it on and take it off like Martin Luther King's best white shirt every morning and every evening. It ain't so easy, and many Mormon gays and lesbians have struggled with it longer and deeper than most hetero people can even imagine in their wildest nightmares. So then you have the temerity to watch one video and come charging on here yelling "SUE THE BASTARDS!" And you wonder why you're getting slapped?

Here, read all this, and when you're really good and shocked at how badly the Mormon cult has treated gays and lesbians, you can have a second shot at it.

Monson was the one in charge of organizing it:
http://exposingmormonism.blogspot.com/2008/02/thomas-s-monson-new-president.html

Link to Dr. Robert Card (Mormon) patent application for device to measure swelling penis:
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6050959.html
Robert D. Card, Ph.D. is now retired.

Max Ford McBride's Ph.D. dissertation in psychology documents his use of electric shock aversion therapy at BYU, "Effect of Visual Stimulation Electric Shock Therapy," Ph.D., BYU 1976. The dissertation is listed in BYU's online catalog. Hard copy is available from UMI http://il.proquest.com/brand/umi.shtml
McBride is a clinical psychologist openly practicing at 1055 N 300 W #414, Provo, UT 84604 (801) 357-7757

Interviews with men who underwent this "treatment":
http://www.lds-mormon.com/legacies

More interviews:
http://www.isu.edu/%7Eschorona/jayce2.htm

A long document which, among other things, outlines the history of BYU's gay witch-hunts:
http://connellodonovan.com/abom.html


And this—a quote from FlattopSF, who used to post here:
"Many people have attempted to raise awareness regarding the Mormon Church’s reparative therapy/aversion therapy policies, with little-to-no interest from any news media or the general public. Most recently, four people including myself, tried to interest national media in this issue during November and December, 2008. I believe this lack of engagement stems from a general American tendency to give religions a 'get out of jail free card' with regard to their activities and political involvement."

"[Regarding reparative therapy patients] They can’t be expected to get angry enough to retaliate when they cling to whatever semblance of normal life they have left. Rational or not, they justifiably fear what the Mormon Church is capable of doing to them. If they have any sense of survival instinct left in them, they just want to get away from their torturers and be left alone."

"Lawsuits? Nobody is going to sue Thomas Monson [president of the Mormon Church] and the Mormons for what they did. The church denies they ever did it, and they actively work to intimidate or discredit anyone who has stepped forward with an accusation. The Mormon Church never apologizes for anything."

Suing the cult isn't going to stop them from doing this. Only public awareness and exposure will. And that doesn't look like it is going to happen any time soon. Many thoughtful people have unpacked this issue before you, experienceheals, and haven'[t gotten far with your "love heals all" stuff. That is impossible with minorities who have been repeatedly bludgeoned into insensibility. It is fine for you to preach MLK's doctrine here, but African-American Civil Rights were not won through King's words alone. History must admit that the threat of terror brought by Malcolm X, Huey Newton, and Bobby Seale pushed things along as well.

As for LGBT payback and the Mormon cult regarding their BYU torture chamber, the consensus, at least around here, seems to be: let the wounded heal and live their lives as they see fit. The Mormons will get what they deserve with regard to LGBT discrimination, but in another way, from people who are better equipped to hurt them.

you know what your problem is, you discredit people too much because your own pride has been hurt so bad, you've lost all sense of your own feeling of self worth that you feel it's necessary to tear other peoples efforts down to try to at least help make things feel a little hopeful. Please consider everything I said and take it with a grain of salt, because right now, your attacks are just plain selfish and not thinking about others good intentions. You're only caring about how things make you feel while not seeing the bigger picture. Good luck on finding what you're looking for again and practice not shooting others down before you take a better look at what they mean.

BULL-SHIT.

Your problem is you think only your experiences count.

Timothy

not true. I know that for a fact, that I take a good look at other peoples experiences. otherwise I wouldn't have the love and compassion I do for others. I would never had have the sincere interest in helping those in schools who struggle with developmental disabilities and I wouldn't have wanted to work with the elderly in a nursing home for 2 years. Got compassion and understanding Timothy. Maybe you should try it some time.

Well if that don't beat all.

I suspect you work with people in nursing homes because they're not likely to challenge your IQ, or rather lack thereof.

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2011 04:46PM by Timothy.

I said I wouldn't have wanted to work with elderly for 2 years. I guess my sentence wasn't enough detailed meaning in past tense. I should have made myself more clear on that. I worked in one over 15 years ago for 2 years. I enjoyed helping them. I had a lot of love and compassion for them, but it got to be too depressing after a while. That's when I decided to work with kids who struggle on a daily basis with developmental disabilities, not so much the ones that were incapable with physical and mental needs. but more the behavioral disorders.

the kids were bright and very intelligent, just needed some help fine tuning their social behavior so they can function better in main stream society. I found that very rewarding as my heart went out to them. Neither of them challenged or even tried to challenge my IQ either, because they respected me, knew I was a smart guy and a person who genuinely cared about them.

Don't give love and respect, you won't receive it back. That's just a basic rule of thumb I haven't seen you quite grasp. with me anyway.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2011 05:00PM by experienceheals.

... you sure don't communicate very well.

By the way, I'm still not gay.

Timothy

Timothy Wrote: For someone who has all the answers ...
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... you sure don't communicate very well.
>


I'd have to say the same for yourself, except for someone like yourself who feels they have all the right answers, you tend not to listen and understand very well either.

> By the way, I'm still not gay.
>
> Timothy


LOL! still hung up on that one eh? I guess my sincere apology wasn't good enough for you. You want me to get down on my knees and kiss your feet and bow down to you and obey every command? (sarcasm)

Experienceheals

I'm just waiting for you to throw another tantrum and close down this thread.

That's the fun part for me!

Timothy

I learned long ago the tactics you enjoy trying to pull and twist on me and probably others too. You play this little game to purposely aggravate others so it looks bad on them and they are the perpetrator while you claim to be the innocent one even though you were the instigator to begin with. Hmmmmmm. Wouldn't that be called a troll?

I think you lost interest for a while in playing this game with me, because you saw that I figured you out and just simply ignored your antics, so you got bored with me and moved on to the next victims to play with.

... if it makes you feel better.

Your so cute when you fumble for rationale.

Timothy

your so cute when you want to discredit your plots and intentions after you just clearly admitted about how you love to see people get upset after you purposely stirring up the pot.

I've tried to help you out of this, but you're such a glutton for punishment.

Your buttons are so easily pushed.

Timothy

"you know what your problem is, you discredit people too much because your own pride has been hurt so bad, you've lost all sense of your own feeling of self worth that you feel it's necessary to tear other peoples efforts down to try to at least help make things feel a little hopeful."
Still struggling with that 1970's-style pop-psychology bullshit? Lay off: I lived though the 1970s and pop-psychology was bullshit even when it was brand new.

Is your ego simultaneously that fat and that sensitive? Haven't you noticed that none of the board's many LGBT participants have responded to you at all, least of all with a slavering show of gratitude for your having solved their self-love "problems"??? Maybe you ought to consider that the problem lies within YOU, thinking that you have the kumba-fuckin'-ya solution to everyone else's lives. Maybe you ought to consider that you DON'T. Maybe you ought to consider that at least in this case, you don't know what you're talking about, you're out of your league, and you're only embarrassing yourself.

you're only lying to yourself because you're angry and you're choosing to not give yourself a chance to try something out once more that may have failed you in the past. Don't come in and wipe your shit all over other people. It would be polite to just wipe your own ass and let it flush down the toilet. I'm not interested in smelling the shit you purposely want to spread all over. Thank you very much.

I think you need to work on it a bit more: I don't feel conquered yet.

You should try harder not to act like everyone owes you a boatload of gratitude for telling them all that is wrong with them and how they can fix it: that's the first mistake of an amateur counselor.

That's the difference between you and other people who choose to see it in a positive way and not read too much into it and take extreme personal offense as you clearly have. Someone who is easily tripped up and offended by most everything others say, usually is the one who needs to humble themselves enough to receive a positive message for what it's worth and not aimed at them personally. It's true. I'm human I've experienced the difference between a prideful heart and a humble one and I've seen that experience happen to others in my life as well. Give it a go, try it some time. you might find a huge difference in an overall attitude, because things start to look, and feel much differently when one is able to see with different eyes and heart. I hope one day you'll see what I mean, with no personal holier than though connotations connected to the Love and respect yourself message. take care.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2011 05:09PM by experienceheals.

Humble yourself, voltaire, let JuHEEsus into your heart.

He is the way the truth and the foundation for christian religious scams!

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2011 05:14PM by Timothy.

I've taken "extreme personal offense" at your pompous assumption that, with the viewing of one 14-minute video, you now know more about how the Mormon cult treated gays and lesbians in the last fifty years than the entire combined readership of RfM.

I've taken "extreme personal offense" at your presumption that your 2 years as a diaper-changer in a retirement home qualifies you to diagnose the psychology of LGBT people who have struggled their entire lives with how they are treated by the Mormon cult.

I've taken "extreme personal offense" at your Peter-Penishood Position which proposes that since you know all, you know best, and can now magnanimously prescribe and dispense cure-all treatments for people whose personal experiences you remain stone-blind unaware of.

I've taken "extreme personal offense" at your complete and utter dilettantism.

But there is ONE thing I do not take "extreme personal offense"
at: your assumption that you know anything at all about me. Regarding that, You've got me laughing my ass off. Go try to psych some mindless deacons, you hoser.

Are you really so arrogant to presume people actually buy this s**t?

Guess so.

Timothy

wouldn't a lawsuit BRING publicity to the issue? Again, I am more basing the course of action off of what has worked against the catholic church, and even when a celebrity ripped up a picture of the pope on tv for that exact reason it didn't bring as much alarm as when lots of people who were molested decided to sue.

Its not only that though... it is that people who had this done to them really genuinely deserve some sort of compensation, and a lawsuit is the only real avenue for it. If a defense fund can be made then perhaps the victims will not need to pay for representation at all, or there may be gay rights groups with lawyers willing to work for free on the case. The ACLU may have some reason to get involved, and they don't charge the people they help. I cannot see any good reason to *not* do something in the face of people being sexually tortured. I believe that people have a moral duty to try and do something when torture goes unpunished. It is an enormous and overwhelming wrong that won't go away on its own. Having to get involved legally is an affront to the dignity of the people who had it happen to them- they shouldn't have to go through all kinds of special efforts to get justice, but if they don't then it will just keep on happening the same way.

I can completely understand cynicism. It is a huge, well funded PR machine, but so is the church of scientology and other groups that took serious hits due to personal activism and lawsuits. Hell, the church has had to change what they say based on legal action a couple of times in the past. Trying to get people together for this purpose is worth a shot. I wish I had more involvement in the BYU/church side so that I could contribute something more than encouragement and ideas. There is someone who is much more qualified than I am to try and get this thing going, but I will contribute time/money whenever possible. There are tons of gay rights groups to network with too. if anyone has information about a group doing that kind of work pass it onto me at skeptifemblog at gmail dot com. I have friends in SLC who can help, too.

re: lawsuits

Children who were molested by the catholics got some unity and went after the church eventually. I don't think its impossible. Forums like this might help them figure out that they weren't alone and that if no one does anything it will keep going on. I mean, BYU completely denies that it happens at all, there is not any reason to think that it has stopped. Future people need to be protected, too.

I agree completely skeptfiem: Pretty much why I chose to post this topic as well. As disturbing as it is, it's a good reminder to help protect those in the future and just to be aware that crap like this really went down.

I had a member of my YBU branch presidency brag to me about this "research", which took place at the lower campus, in 1974. Horrible.

RAG Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I had a member of my YBU branch presidency brag to
> me about this "research", which took place at the
> lower campus, in 1974. Horrible.


Have you thought about setting up a website? I mean, if you have first hand experience and know who all was involved (even if it is only from long ago) you might be able to collect more people together to figure out what to do legally about it. I don't think that torture has a statute of limitations on it for prosecution.

One of my friends told me that this had happened at BYU, however hearing in thier own words from those that experienced it first hand is much more impactful. Thank you for sharing, it has greatly amplified my compasion for gay latter-day saints.

So the church denies it happened? How can they do that with all the documentation? Especially if it lists that dissertation among BYU's catalog? It's like walking up to someone wearing pants, and saying to them, "You're wearing pants." And them saying, "No I'm not."

Also, if people have been taking this to news organizations, why wouldn't they take it and run? These days, people are more pro-gay than they've ever been, and the church is definitely "the enemy" to the general media. So, why do you think it hasn't spread like wildfire? It should be on every news channel and magazine all over the place!

ETA: I had heard little things about this here and there, but am anxious to get home this evening so I can read through and watch the things listed/linked on this thread and get to know what actually did happen. How can they claim they are of God? I find that so crazy!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2011 05:17PM by Snow.