She's 39 years old, BIC, Utah-raised, extended family all TBM, including a GA. I have a similar background, church wise.

I, her husband, have been a reluctant, but pretty convinced, non-believer for about 9 years. Despite this, we've both have continued to grow and I think we have a pretty great marriage.

I've abided my wife's wishes and not discussed religion with our kids, even when it probably would have helped. I've been respectful of her beliefs and "gone slow" as so many have advised on this board.

I go to meetings and have done the baptisms of our younger kids, but have not felt comfortable doing ordinations, confirmation, or going to the temple, etc. Other men have stepped in to do those things. (Yes, humiliating for me, and socially awkward and distressing for her.)

We have 4 biologic (born in the covenant) and 1 adopted child from Ghana (age 3) that hasn't been sealed to us. This fact saddens my wife, obviously. I feel sad for her, too. This complicates things. She wants the eternal family. I want to make her happy. In a way, I wish I could just make things right for her, but I don't plan on lying through a recommend interview.

Our oldest is on a mission in Mexico. His seminary teacher really pumped him up to go. I didn't put up any roadblocks. He's been out for about a year now. I've supported this financially and socially, but not intellectually. He's doing well, but last month he wrote me a letter asking, "What happened to your testimony Dad?"

The letter brought some things to a head. It made me feel so depressed, mad, and frustrated. I haven't done anything wrong or unworthy or evil. I've felt sad in this way many times in the past, but this time was worse than before.

I kept the letter to myself for several weeks, but I was really upset about it. My wife sensed something was up and eventually we had long discussion about things.

To make a long story short, I told her I had at least 500 issues in Mormonism that bother me. That seemed to surprise her. I took a risk and asked her if she'd, "help me research some of my issues."

She said, "Yes."

What topics do you think might resonate with her?

She has a "feelings" sort of testimony and says the Church makes "good people better." She thinks that the Church “does a lot of good in the world.” She terrified that our kids won’t find good spouses if they aren’t in the Church, etc.

She’s really stuck in TMB-land, but she seems a bit more open this time.

Please give me some advice...I think a female perspective would help.

All I can tell you is the things that really convinced me the church isn't what it claims to be.

I left when I was 56. I'm Bic and 5th generation.

When I read about the BoA on Mormon think.com It hit me like a ton of bricks that the church wasn't true. To further help things along were the 7 versions of the first vision, and the polyandry and reading about JS wives. There also were some comments made by JS mother about his story telling abilities that threw up a big red flag. I also knew about the Mormon/Masonry connection which had me wondering, but I didn't look into it until about two years later when I decided to leave the church.

IMO just about every aspect of the church has something very wrong with it. I was overwhelmed by the lies and deceit that I uncovered. Also, if they talk about it or not, the way they are spending money is just wrong. The special treatment of certain people also is something I find so wrong and disgusting.

The church isn't even honest, let alone perfect.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2013 04:42PM by mia.

Just go down the list at mormonthink. I would start with polygamy/polyandry.

Mormon Enigma is a good bok to read because it is about Emma and it covers JS exploits. A good thing to talk about is how Smith proposed to women and how he used his positions to manipulate and coerce women into accepting. Promises of exaltation for those that accepted proposals and slanderous rumors for those that refused.

It's good to use plural marriage as proof Smith was wrong but it has the side benefit of showing what an opportunist he was.

Lots of TBMs know all the same crap we all know. But faith can trump anything.

What finally got me thinking was looking objectively at OTHER examples of despots and authoritarian organizations. I studied this during college courses on different subjects. For years I kept my book-knowledge of the world separate from my book-knowledge of the gospel.

So show her what some of the worlds greatest Lying-Cheating-@$$holes (LCA) look like, then as you're studying the things that make you doubt, connect the dots.

The jist is: If it looks like an LCA, talks like an LCA and acts like an LCA, then it's probably an LCA. And in this I'm talking not only about certain historical Church people, but the centralized Church in the past and present.

Joseph sent men on missions and 'married' their wives in their absence. Multiple times.

David, in the Bible, did it once and was condemmed forever. Lost all that he had and was thrust down into outer darkness.

A loving God approves one scenario, but not the other?

Get a copy of Todd Compton's book, In Sacred Loneliness. He's still a member as far as I know, so it's not 'anti' material.

Polygamy is the blackest mark on JS in my book. He was a straight up horn dog/pedophile who lied to his wife about it all. Help your wife research the timeline of when JS started practicing it according to church historians to when the actual revelation was given. Deflate the church myths about too many women and widows....the exact opposite is true. Those dudes were horny and had the power to do it, so they did it. Period.

If Joe's old lady didn't believe him, why should your wife?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2013 05:00PM by iflewover.

For women, POLYGAMY is Mormonism's greatest vulnerability. This is from an old post on the board regarding section 132 of the Doc:

______________________________________________________________


This is a “homework assignment” given to me by the bishop after I told him: “I don’t like polygamy, the temple is about polygamy, I don’t do the temple.” He asked me to support that bold statement. Here is my response.


Section 132
1961 Edition of the Doctrine and Covenants
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives.

-------The Prophet’s inquiry of the Lord--He is told to prepare himself to receive the new and everlasting covenant--Conditions of this law--The power of the Holy Priesthood instituted by the Lord must be operative in ordinances to be in effect beyond the grave--
Marriage by secular authority is of effect during mortality only--Though the form of marriage should make it appear to be for time and eternity, the ordinance is not valid beyond the grave unless solemnized by the authority of the Holy Priesthood as the Lord directs--
Marriage duly authorized for time and eternity to be attended by surpassing blessings--
Essentials for the attainment of the status of godhood -- The meaning of eternal lives--Plurality of wives acceptable only when commanded by the Lord--The sin of adultery--Commandment to Emma Smith, wife of the prophet.


Section 132
Current Edition of the Doctrine and Covenants
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

Statements by Church Leaders

Elder Charles W. Penrose: “the revelation... was [the] only one published on Celestial Marriage, and if the doctrine of plural marriage was repudiated so must the glorious principle of marriage for eternity, the two being indissolubly interwoven with each other." (Millennial Star, Vol. 45, page 454)


Apostle Orson Pratt: "If plurality of marriage is not true or in other words, if a man has no divine right to marry two wives or more in this world, then marriage for eternity is not true, and your faith is in vain, and all the sealing ordinances and powers pertaing to marriages for eternity are vain, worthless, good for nothing; for as sure as one is true the other also must be true." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 21, page 296)

Joseph F. Smith: "I understand the law of celestial marriage to mean that every man in this Church, who has the ability to obey and practice it in righteousness and will not, shall be damned, I say I understand it to mean this and nothing less, and I testify in the name of Jesus that it does mean that." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, p. 28-31)

In 1891 during the Reed Smoot hearings before Congress, the First Presidency and Apostles of the Mormon Church: "We formerly taught to our people that polygamy or celestial marriage as commanded by God through Joseph Smith was right; that it was a necessity to man's highest exaltation in the life to come." (Reed Smoot Case, vol. 1, page 18)

Brigham Young: "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, page 269)

Heber C. Kimball: "the principle of plurality of wives never will be done away,..." (Deseret News, Nov. 7, 1855)
"Some quietly listen to those who speak... against the plurality of wives, and against almost every principle that God has revealed. Such persons have half-a-dozen devils with them all the time. You might as well deny 'Mormonism,' and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of wives. Let the Presidency of this Church, and the Twelve Apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose the doctrine, and the whole of them will be damned." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 203)

Brigham Young responding to the question: " 'Do you think that we shall ever be admitted as a State into the Union without denying the principle of polygamy?' If we are not admitted until then, we shall never be admitted." Deseret News for Oct. 10, 1866

Charles W. Penrose: “In the case of a man marrying a wife in the everlasting covenant who dies while he continues in the flesh and marries another by the same divine law, each wife will come forth in her order and enter with him into his glory “ ("Mormon" Doctrine Plain and Simple, or Leaves from the Tree of Life, by Charles W. Penrose, p.66, 1897, Salt Lake City, UT).

Gordon B. Hinckley Oct. 2007 at the funeral for the second wife of President Howard W. Hunter, the fourteenth President of the LDS Church. The Deseret News reported:
President Hinckley affirmed the eternal nature of the marriage between Sister [Inis] Hunter and the former church president, whose first wife, Claire Jeffs, died after a long battle with Alzheimer's disease and is now buried beside him in the Salt Lake Cemetery. Inis Hunter "will now be laid to rest on the other side," he said. "They were sealed under the authority of the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood for time and for all eternity," he said, Hinckley performed the marriage ceremony for them in the Salt Lake Temple in April 1990. Deseret News, Oct. 22, 2007).

The official LDS Church Handbook of Instruction:
Living Women — A living woman may be sealed to only one husband. . . .
Living Men — If a husband and wife have been sealed and the wife dies, the man may have another woman sealed to him if she is not already sealed. (Church Handbook of Instruction)

Dallin Oaks, Russell Nelson, Harold B. Lee and possibly hundreds of other church men have been sealed to more than one wife. Therefore in principle and in practice, they are polygamists.

The Plan of Salvation and the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage

The Plan of Salvation is perhaps the core doctrine of the Church. It is a roadmap from the Pre-existence to Exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom and a return to Heavenly Father.

There is a simplicity to the Plan: baptism, confirmation, ordination, endowment in the Temple and the attainment of Exaltation by Celestial Marriage or Sealling in the Temple.

Can one be exalted without Celestial Marriage? No.
Can one be sealed without Temple ordinances and covenants? No.

It is a combination of the covenants in the Temple endowment and the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage that allow us the possibility of exaltation.

The endowment is the preparation for the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage. In the endowment, we make covenants of obedience, sacrifice, gospel, chastity and consecration that apply directly to the Plan of salvation.

Arguably the Law of Consecration is the most important because the covenant requires us to dedicate ourselves and all we have to the church. It is perhaps this test of total dedication that qualifies us for the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage.

We gain exaltation by being sealed according to the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage which is Plurality of Wives as outlined in Section 132. The New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage requires us to covenant to the practice of polygamy or plurality of wives.

Plurality of wives is specifically mentioned in the section heading of Section 132. It is not an optional form of marriage. (DC 132:4)


Summary
At this time, the practice of polygamy is in abeyance on earth, but required in the Celestial Kingdom. But the doctrine and principle of plural marriage is still valid.

The New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage which is Plurality of Wives remains canonized scripture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and plural marriage is authorized by the Church Handbook of Instructions.

Considering that the elements of the Plan of Salvation; baptism, confirmation, ordination and endowment in the Temple are precursors to the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage and its requirement of plurality of wives, my position stands.

____________________________________________________________



Also this from the same thread:



"The Temple is about Polygamy." ... and polygamy is all about sex and male control.

Few Mormon men will ever admit it, but the secret, great incentive in their lives is to someday become a God and have endless harems of wives at their bidding!

Sex, money, power, fame -- it's the oldest story on the planet. Mormonism has simply re-packaged this "Perfect Male Fantasy" with God's full approval. That's hard to resist.

Unless, of course, you are a woman who gets the opposite of everything. She shares her husband with millions of wives, competes with all these other women, and is perpetually pregnant.

Here's Brigham Young's perspective as a male Mormon:

"I shall have wives and children by the million, and glory, and riches and power and dominion, and kingdom after kingdom, and reign triumphantly."

-- JoD, V.8 Pgs 178-179


THAT is what the Mormon Temple has ALWAYS been about!

The CES letter lays it out well
http://mormonthink.com/personalstories/A_Letter_to_a_CES_Director.pdf

+1!!

On YouTube I recently watched Steven Hassan's presentation at the 2008 ExMormon Foundation Conference. The segment where he outlines Cult Psychology is brilliant. You can see it here: http://youtu.be/tQ1-JfYTAo8?t=19s. If anything, it will give you more of an understanding of what you're dealing with.

Note: I had seen the BITE model mentioned by others on RfM, and in this section (part 6, ~ 10 mins) Hassan explains it.

This guy is fascinating. I found a much longer video of his and I am making my way through it. It seems, that for him, the aha moment was seeing SumYung Moon lie to the press. It was a circumstance not unlike Hinkley's "I don't know that we teach that." interview on 60 minutes. Maybe start there?

DEFINITELY polygamy/polyandry. There is absolutely NO response to a question like "Why did Joseph Smith need to marry (and have sex) with a 14 year old girl in order for her family to be blessed for eternity?" It is incredibly disturbing, and the TSCC does it's best to hide these facts.

For me personally, the BoA got the ball rolling; it not only destroys all of Joseph Smith's credibility, but the BoM, the Priesthood, etc.

I would start out with the "A Letter to a CES Director" as found on the front page of www.MormonThink.com. Tell her this is a summary of the things you are having trouble with and as a loving wife would appreciate if she could help you with.

Then I'd have her start "researching" polygamy. Women HATE polygamy, she'll especially have a different view of
Joseph Smith after she learns of all the juicy details of the number of women, the ages, and the manner in which he went after them.

Have her read the following chapter: http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech9a.htm

BTW that's a great book which goes into the details of all the problem areas in Mormon history.

Sounds like a good opportunity.

For women Joseph Smith's polygamy/polyandry often is the biggest kicker. The honorable mention is the many sexist statements that church leaders have made about the superiority of men over women.

One of the most important things here is how you approach it - even more important than what you cover. The key, I think, is to research and look things up together - read the items. Never make an argument yourself - always let whatever you are reading make the argument for you. That way she doesn't feel personally attacked by you. Be willing to look at both sides - dig into the apologetic side as well as the critical side together.

It might be a good idea to do an overview looking at several issues high level:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ac_fLUHiBw&feature=youtu.be

http://www.mormonthink.com/personalstories/A_Letter_to_a_CES_Director.pdf

As far as polygamy, probably your best bet is Todd Compton's book - In Sacred Loneliness. Compton is still a member of the church in good standing and his working is very accurate historically. Even FAIR openly admits that of Compton's listed 11 polyandrus wives only 3 of them can be questioned -the other 8 definitely happened.

This website is a summary of Compton's book and is a great place to start:
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/
The whole site is good but these ones are especially powerful:
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/26-HelenMarKimball.htm
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/05-ZinaHuntingtonJacobs.htm
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/2021-EmilyandElizaPartridge.htm


D&C 132 is another great place to go - just read through that together. Likewise Jacob 2:23-28 vs. D&C 132:38-39
(If you read D&C 132 carefully it basically says - Emma has to give consent for Joseph to take wives; however, if she doesn't give consent she will be destroyed and Joseph will take the extra wives anyway.) - Also note that D&C 132 was after J.S had already taken many wives.

Also this original scan of Joseph Smith's letter to one of his plural wives:
http://user.xmission.com/~research/family/strange.htm


http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Letter_from_Joseph_Smith_to_the_Whitneys_%2818_August_1842%29

(This also references the book published by Deseret Book as it's source.)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2013 05:23PM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

A lot of people have been suggesting polygamy/polyandry, but I would actually back up a little and start with Emma. I had a lot of things on my shelf in regards to Emma and it eventually led to mormonthink because the LDS answers were so completely inadequate, and obviously hiding things.

Things that bothered me back when:

Why didn't Emma go Utah? She was the wife of THE prophet, right? surely the Lord wouldn't have had JS marry someone unworthy?

Was Emma going to be saved? Didn't she fall away from the church? If she's being given a pass because her life was so difficult, doesn't that contradict the verse in the D&C that says we will not be tempted above our ability to resist?

If JS had all these other wives (wait, what???) why do we only talk about Emma?

This leads very nicely into talk about polygamy/polyandry, the total bizarreness of JS marital "situation", and puts a lot of doubt on JS' holiness.


One more thing - see the Elizabeth Smart statements on how the "chewed gum" lessons were so harmful to her. The church is very harmful to women, and to men. Your children can be healthier and happier and holier (if that's what you're looking for) without TSCC.

Hope all goes well for you.

Oh, also, Mark Hofmann. Why couldn't the prophet tell that this guy was a sociopathic conman?

If you can undermine her absolute trust in leaders, just a little, it will be a crack in the dam...

Women tend to be moved more by learning about Joseph Smith having sex with teenage girls, and the mental manipulation he used on them.

If she is science minded I would also bring up lack of BoM evidence in general, and DNA problems specifically.

Before digging on LDS issues, I'd recommend studying another religion that's similar. In my case, I talked with my wife about David Koresh and the Branch Davidians first. Get a discussion on that going. Ask things like:

-- Why did David Koresh institute polygamy?

-- Why did David Koresh's followers permit him to have sexual relations with their, in some cases, 13 and 14-year-old daughters?

-- Why did David Koresh's followers stay with him, even when they saw the abuse occurring?

-- Nearly 20 years after Waco, why do some of his followers still believe?

Ask if she'd be willing to apply the same standard of judgment levied against Koresh to LDS leaders.

As others have mentioned, polygamy seems to resonate. Women tend to be more emotionally attached to the church, and are less likely (in my albeit limited experience) to care about things like the BoA or BoM problems.

For me it was just the opposite. I had very little if any attachment to the church itself. I cared very much about the teachings and scriptures. If they were of no worth, the church certainly had no value.

My wife and I were the same way. Once I found several issues with the Book of Mormon and discussed it with her, she almost instantly went off on a rant about all the things that didn't make sense to her in the church.

It ended with her saying "Well, if the scriptures are wrong, then the church is wrong, and actually, useless if you think about it."

A ripe opportunity to turn her to the dark side.

I was about your age when I went through this same thing with my wife and kids .. just as my oldest was trying to make the decision to go or not to go on a mission. He didn't want to go.. and I supported that .. and in the process "outed" myself. I was the first counselor in the bishopric.. and had been a closet non believer also for several years. What occurred over the next several years ultimately led to my resignation from the church and shortly thereafter.. my marriage of over 25 years ended. Looking back... I think I wish I'd done things differently to try and save my marriage.

Everyone will have a different experience with this. But my guess is your wife may likely be just like mine.. and even though they say they will help.. really.. they will NOT want to hear or learn the truth. It's just too painful for them. And they shut it out.

It's a horrible situation this damn church and it's leaders with their continuing lies put people like us in. We risk loosing our families .. if we are true to ourselves. I have so much bitterness for this organization. It's been about 5 years since I resigned.. and slowly the bitterness fades.. but the thought of my youngest whom I rarely see now because he lives 3000 miles away with my ex and her new TBM husband.. makes me incredibly sad.

I wish you luck.. as you navigate this challenge.. and it will be a challenge my friend.

A lot of women here seem to have lost interest in being Mormon after they've gone to http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.com and have read "In Sacred Loneliness."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2013 10:03PM by cludgie.

.org

My husband didn't give me any material to read, I just started asking what his issues were and researching them on my own. He was concerned about the Kinderhook plates, the character of Joseph Smith (I chose to read his biography by his mother), the BOA, polygamy, polyandry. He did show me the list of his wives from familysearch.org, which I couldn't believe and researched on my own. I was trying to save him, and here I am.

The bottom line will come down to whether she is more loyal to the truth or to the church. I would have said I was loyal to the church (because church=truth), and I knew with all of my heart that it was true, and yet here I am.

As others have mentioned I would start with the big ones:

1- Joseph's wives and mistresses.
2- Multiple accounts of the first vision.
3- Joseph can't translate Egyptian.
4- Book of Mormon is not supported by any reputable researcher.
5- Evolution.

When evolution is properly understood, it is the final nail in the coffin of Mormonism. Sadly, this may be way too emotional to even discuss or explore.

Often, many want to know how Joseph could have come up with the Book of Mormon. See http://mormonleaks.com/.

The mormonleaks story is a bit speculative, but is much more convincing than angels named Nephi/Moroni and running through the woods with 100 lbs.+ gold plates and peeking into a hat to ignore said gold plates. I like how mormonleaks lays out the claim in slide-show story fashion that is easy to follow. If you want to dig into the footnotes, they are also there.

Oh, I just thought of something. She is probably really hoping to pray with you over these problems, then have the spirit show up with good feelings that make your concerns go away. You should probably share some concerns on how the "holy Casper" is just a mind trick, included with the research to prove your point.

what happened to the dog that ate the golden plates?

honestly, a 5 year old can look at these questions and figure out it's all bullshit.

Scooter, well put bro, thanks for the laugh, I needed it! Seriously, funny post Scooter, it cut through the tension I was feeling in the emotion and passion of this thread.

Hopeful in SPringville: With very little words, I will cut straight to the chase. You got a lot of great advice, but 500 issues you have??? Come on dude, you know damn well its all a farce.

Here is the deal chief, I served 2 years in brazil back in 1991-1993, I want all my time and money back for the last 40 years. Hit me with it straight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Matthew chapter 7, Jesus said, "beware of false prophets that come to you as wolves dressed in sheeps clothing". Remember, he told us, "by their fruits you will know them".

The Keystone to the church is the BoM, and also all cannonized scripture. Start with the B.S. of the Book of Abraham. Its easy. Once you have established the BIG GOOF by J.S., start asking about Poloyandry. Next, quote all the scriptures (the entire book of mormon) from the Bible, there are many sources on the internet to do that for you. At this point, the church is toasted to the core.

The fruits of the LDS church are more sour than any lemon you can imagine.

The key to cracking the 'faith' and creating doubt in any Mormon's mind about their religion is to begin the process with material they cannot automatically ignore as 'anti-Mormon' because it's official LDS material.

The article by Nelson is online and entitled "A Treasured Testament" (ref. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/07/a-treasured-testament?lang=eng). The quote in his article to bring to your wife's attention is:

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.”

Ask your wife reads this quote (assuming she's willing to), ask her: "Did the church ever teach you or any of its leaders ever inform you that Joseph Smith used a single stone and his hat to translate the Book of Mormon?"

Here's another quote from the church's The Friend Magazine (online) in Sept. 1974:

"Because of his spiritual nature and his willingness to learn the truth, Joseph Smith was tested and found worthy to be the translator of the Book of Mormon. To help him with the translation, Joseph found with the gold plates “a curious instrument which the ancients called Urim and Thummim, which consisted of two transparent stones set in a rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate.”

"Joseph also used an egg-shaped, brown rock for translating called a seer stone. The translating was done at Peter Whitmer’s home, a friend of the Prophet’s where Oliver Cowdery, Emma Smith (Joseph’s wife), one of the Whitmers, or Martin Harris wrote down the words spoken by the Prophet as soon as they were made known to him.

"Martin Harris said that on the seer stone 'sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by [the one writing them down] and when finished [that person] would say "written;" and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another take its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates.'

"Even with the help of the Urim and Thummim and the seer stone, it wasn’t easy to translate the sacred record. It required the Prophet’s greatest concentration and spiritual strength."

(Ref. https://www.lds.org/friend/1974/09/a-peaceful-heart?lang=eng)

Did the LDS Church or any of its leaders or instructors ever inform your wife that JS used an "egg-shaped, brown rock for translating"? (Probably not.) Why not?

The point to asking such questions is to kick-start (hopefully) your wife's innate ability to think critically about what she was systematically indoctrinated and conditioned by Mo-ism to automatically - and unquestioningly - mentally accept without scrutiny.

More:

According to the first (1830) edition of the BoM, who was the volume's author? Joseph Smith, Jr. (see the digital photo of the title page at http://www.inephi.com/1.htm

Ask your wife: In 1835, the year that JS turned 30 and five years after the church was formally established, whom did JS marry, bearing in mind that he was already married to Emma (in Jan. 1827)? Teenager Fanny Alger. The LDS Church's Family Search online genealogy record shows the details (ref. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/SP82-WTV).

More info. about Fanny is online at http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm and says the girl was "comly" (pretty) and "Fanny was living in the Smith home" when JS made her his first plural wife.

The WivesofJosephSmith.org website is based on historian Todd Compton's remarkable "In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith" (ref. http://signaturebooks.com/2010/02/in-sacred-loneliness-the-plural-wives-of-joseph-smith/). The webpage about Fanny Alger says:

"Joseph kept his marriage to Fanny out of the view of the public, and his wife Emma. Chauncey Webb recounts Emma’s later discovery of the relationship: 'Emma was furious, and drove the girl, who was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet, out of her house'."

Fanny couldn't "conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet", huh? Sounds like a swelling womb, to me.

Bear in mind that JS married Fanny in Ohio, where bigamy was against the law. Section 7 of the state's Sessions Laws said: "That if any married person, having a husband or wife living, shall marry any other person, every person so offending shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon conviction thereof shall be imprisoned in the penitentiary and kept at hard labor not more than seven years, nor less than one year[.]"

JS repeatedly broke the law with his practice of plural marriage in Ohio and Illinois (bigamy/polygamy was illegal there, too). His second known plural wife was the spouse of church member George Harris! (See http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/03-LucindaMorganHarris.htm for more info.)

According to the LDS Church, "Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant and the principle of plural marriage. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, evidence indicates that some of the principles involved in this revelation were known by the Prophet as early as 1831." (Ref. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng)

Verses 52 to 54 of D&C 132 say:

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those [females] that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law."

(Ref. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132.52-54?lang=eng)

Like any married Mormon woman (and with children to care for), Emma despised polygamy. On top of her family responsibilities, she was in charge of the Relief Society. And what was her husband doing? Pursuing single women, married women, and teenage girls (see the www.wivesofjosephsmith.org list and https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/99P4-SHN).

Ask your wife: What happened in JS' life just two months before July 1843, when he wrote down that "the Lord" would destroy Emma, his wife and the mother of their children, if she did not accept his plural wives and "cleave unto" him?

Answer: At age 37, JS made 14-year-old Helen Mar Kimball his youngest-yet plural wife. She is listed as one of JS' wives toward the bottom of https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/99P4-SHN

Ask your wife: Why was JS, a married man with kids, going after the daughter of his priesthood subordinate, Heber Kimball, a girl young enough to be the daughter of JS?

Why did JS tell teenager Lucy Walker, whose mother and sister had died in Nauvoo, and whose father JS had sent far away on a mission to the eastern USA, that his marriage to her "would have to be secret"? (Ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm).

Note that Lucy wrote: “Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at all.” (Same link)

However, the LDS Church says that JS knew "the principles involved in this revelation [polygamy]...as early as 1831", one of which was "the first [wife] give her consent" (D&C 132:61).

The same verse indicates that Mormon men like JS could go after "virgins...vowed to no other man." But Mormonism's "prophet of the Restoration" married 11 women vowed to their husbands! (See the list at http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/). And as married women, they were certainly not virgins.

So, what you have is a man who claimed to be an extra-special prophet of God who repeatedly disobeyed what "the Lord" told him (purportedly) AND the law, thereby violating the 12th Article of Faith ("We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law").

D&C 132:43 says that if a "husband be with another woman, and he was under a [marriage] vow, he hath broken his vow and hath committed adultery." JS repeatedly broke his marriage vow to Emma; he was a serial adulterer who preyed on women and girls.

According to D&C 76:103, after death adulterers will be sent by God to the Telestial Kingdom, to suffer there forever for their gross sexual immorality. If Mormonism is true, the TK has to be the post-mortality place where JS will languish forever due to his reprehensible conduct during his life. Applying LDS standards to him, JS made himself unworthy of celestial glory and even the Terrestrial Kingdom.

The motherlode of info. about Mo-ism is at http://www.utlm.org/navtopicalindex.htm

Go luck!

1. Polyandry and polygamy.

2. Current GA practice of polygamy - sealed to a deceased wife and a living wife.

"What happened to your testimony Dad?"

I can assure you that it's not personal. Your son is in "sales" mode and is saying things he thinks ought to be said and done as a salesman for Joey Smith's church. He likewise thinks he can offer you the opportunity to repent because, you know, he has the spirit. Again, it's nothing personal. That's what missions do to earnest young men.

What happened to your testimony? TRUTH happened!