After i posted the Letter to the CES teacher, I got a decent response from my step sis in law the "top 5 myths about exmormons". It was a good video, non judgmental, but it does outline big issues in the church. Someone like her, who knows these awful things about the church.... how do they still believe and proudly profess to be mormons?

I mean, I get it, she's got kids, a husband in the military, they move around a lot... I get the social networking benefit...

I just can't understanding it... I mean I do, but I don't. How does the cog dissonance not just drive them crazy?

I'm convinced some do it because it is all they know. It has little to do with actual faith at all. I have been carefully watching people in sacrament. When a hymn is sung, few (in the back at least) sing along. And when they do, there is no exuberance. I noticed, as well, few pay much attention to the one speaking even if the one speaking is touched by the spirit and starts crying. After noticing few paying attention there will be one to remark to their families when they get home how good the talks were in sacrament when you watched and know they didn't listen and would not be able to give any details about what was said. There is a disinterest in the subject matter, and why wouldn't there be? Little new is learned. It is just a routine and a checkmark off the weekly task list.

In Sunday school it is a little better due to participation and that is when I look around or listen for any doubters. So far I have not detected doubt. I keep vacillating in opinion about the teacher. Sometimes he seems a bit like he feels the need to explain the oddities which can be a sign of doubt.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2013 12:10PM by snuckafoodberry.

Figured it was just DW's ward. I went along with her to be supportive, even though I was clear to any TBM, including the bishop, that I wasn't interested. No one sang, ever. Bro. and Sister Cries-a-lot couldn't wait to bear their testimony, but no one else wanted to come up. And Sunday School... ughhh...they were doing New Testament at the time. No one wanted to participate, so I'm well read in the NT, and I felt bad for the teacher, so I participated... and I'm watching the heads nod at what I say, and I'm thinking, "what I'm saying isn't even what you teach!! I'm a non-Mo schooling your Sunday School teacher (politely, I hope) and you aren't even paying attention!" Well, except the one douchey guy sitting to the side who quickly slipped me a "17-points" card when I finished my point. Honestly, I don't understand how at SM or SS, even if you believe that crap, how anyone feels like they're learning anything.

I did it for years.

Factors:

- Pascal's wager
- Should be humble and have faith - I don't know everything
- Not worthy/perfect enough to be in a position
- Isolation - everyone else seemed to believe it completely
- Thought it was a good organization
- I tried and worked really hard to believe
- I had many deep spiritual feelings and trusted in those
- I thought believing made me good, and doubting made me bad

(I never really saw the historical issues - I had no idea about polyandry or BoA for example until years after I decided I was an atheist but there was plenty of internal evidence just in the scriptures and other problems that I had to put on the shelf and try to ignore.)

In other words, its about mind control. Information alone usually isn't sufficient to overcome mind control for most people.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2013 12:10PM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

and it was so worth it.thx

I did also;

Beautiful.

Pascal's Wager (also known as Pascal's Gamble) is an argument in apologetic philosophy which was devised by the seventeenth-century French philosopher, mathematician, and physicist, Blaise Pascal. It posits that humans all bet with their lives either that God exists or does not exist. Given the possibility that God actually does exist and assuming the infinite gain or loss associated with belief in God or with unbelief, a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.).[1]

Sorry - it has gotten talked about a lot on this board, but come to think of it its been a few months.

Of course, Pascals Wager is a logical fallacy:

You would have to follow ALL Gods - which are often self-contradictory. For example, many Christians say that Mormons are going to hell because they believe in the wrong Jesus. Plus Allah. and Zeus, etc., etc.

So really following the God you happen to believe in is pretty much worthless.

Or you could choose to follow a God that you would actually want to live with that wasn't so narcissistic that he damned or heavenated you only being lucky enough to believe in the right version of God.

And if you never manage to learn about any gods (let's say you were stranded with your family on an island or in a desert) and die relatively young, where does that leave you? Will God be forgiving or will you live in limbo forever? It all starts to fall apart and just seems totally bogus.

Thank you for teaching me something today BC. :)

I can see all these reasons as viable reasons for inaction.

What gets me is when smart, reasonable, intelligent, and self aware people, know this stuff and still stay. You would fall into that boat, my step sister in law does....

I guess I can understand it. My first Cog dis moment was when I found out i was of Brigham Young's lineage on one side and George Cannon on the other... I had no choice but to take a hard look at Polygamy. When I had issues with it, and asked my ex TBM husband, his basic answer was "we don't know, and you just to deal with it because there are no answers."

So perhaps that is part of it... you push it out of your mind with the thought "It isn't for us to know, god knows."

Here in lies the danger of religion and belief in gods... we accept not knowing as a consequence of faith. We let that limitation of our knowledge be good enough...

One more BIG one.

For a lot of things there would be something that would bother me and then I would come up with an answer or get a feeling or something that would make me feel OK about it.

Then I would say - well there was an answer to that, so I just have to have faith that there are answers to other things and God's ways are higher than my ways. Just be humble and put it on the shelf.

Probably the two most extreme examples:

It bothered me immensely that God let 5 preschoolers die in the trunk of a car in a driveway while six TBM parents searched frantically for hours - why didn't the spirit prompt one of them to look in the trunk?

Well that bothered me for years. Then one day I prayed about it. I felt "prompted" to read the Book of Mormon. I randomly opened to Alma/Amulek watching the women/children burning and the explanation for why God let those people die resonated strongly with me at the time. I felt completely OK with that situation at the time. And it was amazing that I opened right to a scripture that answered my question!

So, you know, that was a pretty big "sign". Now I just chalk it up as coincidence, and I think the answer is ridiculous, but at the time it certainly gave me something I could have faith in.

That one reconverted me for a couple years.

Another one: This was when I was doubting a ton. My wife coordinated with the Bishop and Stake President to allow us to go as a Ma & Pa on a trek to try to help my testimony. I knew this was the case and I wanted to believe. I read the whole BoM in a month. I really felt something strong. However, I found that if I hiked more than about 5 miles I would get violently ill - shaking vigorously for an hour. I got checked for diabetes and such and came up clean.

I went on the trek even with the problem. It was up at Martin's Cove and I made myself feel lots of spiritual feelings - the environment was perfect for it. On the last day, it was a 14 mile or so strenuous hike and I was "miraculously" able to complete it (but I still shook in the tent for an hour afterwards.)

Again that one reconverted me for a couple of years.

I "felt the spirit" when I was 11 in sacrament meeting. I teared up at a talk. My Mom teared up and told me now I had my own testimony. I was so special to her. She was so proud. I got really, really, really good at feeling the spirit after that - after all it made me so special to my Mom - and she was never particularly generous with praise.

--

I've seen a similar thing with my Dad who is all in and other priesthood leaders who spend their life doing the leader thing. They see miracles in everything. They think of something they think is clever/helpful to say to someone and they attribute it to God. They think of "just the right" punishment for a sin and they attribute to God. They see this or that or the other and attribute it to God. Confirmation bias is a very powerful thing. As EQP councilor I had a weird one - a jackmo asked for a blessing - she was terminally ill. I blessed her to live for a time as an opportunity to reactivate her family. She lived for a few months. Then the EQP went over and gave her another blessing - he blessed her to die and she did, like 1-2 days later. Almost spooky - but not really because she was a lot sicker when he blessed her than when I did.

So there you go - WAY more than you ever wanted to hear from me about the subject.

I understand WHY its so compelling even when you see some facts. Part of the trap also was much of the early "anti-Mormon" stuff I heard was stupid - "Jesus and Satan are brothers!!!" - well, yeah, they are both spiritual brothers, so what? etc.

"The universe is huge and old and rare things happen all the time, including life.” – Lawrence Krauss.

What I love about this- (I posted the video earlier today) is that it explains why coincidences happen.

I always love reading about your experiences, thank you for taking the time to type them out.

I can't ever imagine being reconverted, I really can't, that, just, seems, insane.

I postulate that another factor in the desire to continue to believe despite incredible amounts of evidence to the contrary, or lack of direct evidence (god) is the hubris it allows one to maintain. If a god loves me, I must be important. IF I am just a person, and there is no god, I am less important. (talk about cog dis- commanded to be humble, but hubris about being so important this world was made just for us.... ridiculous) This, of course, is ridiculous, delusional, and unfortunate, wrong thinking.

I think it much more "spiritual" no, scratch that, i don't like that word, AWE INSPIRING and LIFE EDIFYING to know that I am stardust- I am linked to everything, I am nothing, but out of nothing I came and I have the ability to ponder how I came from nothing. That is life affirming.

"The amazing thing is that every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And, the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics: You are all stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded, because the elements - the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution - weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars, and the only way they could get into your body is if those stars were kind enough to explode. So, forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be here today."- Lawrence Krauss

When I was reconverted I was just a doubter - a long roller coaster ride. I had NO clue about any of the issues other than things I noticed that bothered me - mostly problems with the scriptures and not buying the whole miracle/answers to prayers thing.

There is no way I could be reconverted now. OK if God came and talked to me, but since he doesn't exist that's not going to happen.

I think you are right on the hubris thing for many. For me personally it was more the opposite. LDS inc beat me down enough that I didn't trust myself to follow what seemed the only logical answer.

Oh, I forgot to mention a "miraculous event" that my father tries to claim makes it true.

My mother was sick all my life. He of course, gave her many blessings. All the time.

then, he gives her one that goes something like this "You will be healed on this trip."

Well, she died that trip to the hospital. Of course, mormons take that, and my dad took that as gods way of healing her... sigh, I am sorry to say that at 15, I believed it too.. now I just see it for what it is...

"The universe is huge and old and rare things happen all the time, including life.” – Lawrence Krauss.

I had the same problem. Mormonism's constant guilt coupled with my father's ridiculous logics:

"Don't think yourself out of the church" and "If you are sad you just aren't close enough to god" mad me doubt both my logic (which is the biggest part of how I am) and my emotions, which I still have trouble assessing.

Love stumbling across a Lawrence Krauss quote.

Adding to the conversation subject cog-dis stemming from religion here's one from Neil Degrasse Tyson

"If all that you see, do, measure and discover is the will of a deity, then ideas can never be proven wrong, you have no predictive power, and you are at a loss to understand the principles behind most of the fundamental interconnections of nature." -NDT

My conclusion -- and I think I "Get It" comes from observations and my experiences living in a typical Christian home (strong beliefs in God, the Bible, USA and Apple Pie!) and converting to Mormonism, is the strong, element of the Spiritual Witness of Faith, (on some level) which is the core that includes not just a belief, but a long concrete established heritage, a strong familial, social culture, and the absolute solid belief (I KNOW!) that God lives. That kind of core is so powerful, it often cannot be moved.


So, I Get It.(I think!)
The beliefs are about... wait for it..drum roll...... FAITH. Strong, unwavering, solid, FAITH.
It overpowers, all else, and any so-called facts!

When we grasp the power of FAITH and that strong emotional attachment/bond, it becomes more clear how and why religious beliefs/views continue--for eons.

That's how it's done, folks! That's my explanation and why I am passionate about the RIGHT to religious beliefs! All of them!
Besides, that is about someone else, not me anyhow.

Or the right NOT to believe, or have belief a requirement in schools.

It has nothing to do with your thread.

At no point did you ever imply that you wanted to threaten anyone's rights to belief.

It's a statement that is completely off the topic of what you are saying because the two have nothing to do with one another.

You want to know how someone can continue to believe after they've gained certain knowledge.

That has nothing to do with religious rights whatsoever. In fact, I'm having a really hard time understanding why anyone would bring that up within the context of what you were posting.

It's a complete distraction to the topic at hand.

"In fact, I'm having a really hard time understanding why anyone would bring that up within the context of what you were posting."

It was probably brought up within the context of this thread because someone else wanted to bring it up. They most likely wanted to talk about it and insert their own thoughts and comments.

I might be going out on a limb here, but I'm fairly certain that is one of the main reasons why all of us post comments here.

That makes even less sense.

Perhaps it was meant that the poster that was off topic, wanted to talk about another topic, so deviated towards that topic instead... weaving it, loosely into the original question.

Susie wanted to bring it up. That is why she posted it. You claim that you didn't understand why someone would bring it up, however it is very simple. She wanted to do it and that is why she did.

At the risk of repeating myself I'll say it again. The reason why most of us post anything is probably because we want to.

Edit: Ahh...I think I get where we were not communicating.

When I said that "someone else" brings it up I meant "someone else (ie, not you RJ)" wanted to bring it up.

Does that clear it up a bit?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2013 05:57PM by snb.

OP: How do people live with cognitive dissonance?

SuzieQ: I am passionate about rights.

Raptor: That doesn't make sense in the context of this thread.

SNB: SusieQ can say whatever she wants to because we all want to say things.

Raptor: None of this makes sense given the OP.

SNB: But we can say whatever we want to!!!

Raptor: Have fun not making any sense and arguing over the right to not make any sense.

Raptor Jesus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OP: How do people live with cognitive dissonance?
>
> SuzieQ: I am passionate about rights.
>
> Raptor: That doesn't make sense in the context of
> this thread.
>
> SNB: SusieQ can say whatever she wants to because
> we all want to say things.
>
> Raptor: None of this makes sense given the OP.
>
> SNB: But we can say whatever we want to!!!
>
> Raptor: Have fun not making any sense and arguing
> over the right to not make any sense.

OP: How do people live with cognitive dissonance?

BC: Here are the ways I allowed myself to.

OP: Grateful for the disclosure.

OP: Grateful for the others who also shared their thoughts about Cog Diss.

Other people can compartmentalize.

Incredibly well.

Mind bogglingly well.

However, I think at some point you have to put up defense mechanisms around your dissonance.

Where if someone points out to you that something doesn't make sense, you instantly go to those mechanisms.

This thread is a hilarious example.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2013 06:09PM by Raptor Jesus.

Ahh...so now you get it.

Good, I'm glad. You said you didn't get it earlier.

Wait a second! Were you pretending not to get it for rhetorical effect? Holy cow!

Here is the thing RJ, you pretend not to understand things and I think you do that as a way to try to hurt others. You do it as a way to mock others. It isn't very nice. I made sense, so did Susie and to pretend otherwise is only a tactic that you use to win internet points. You objected to what she wrote and objected to what I wrote and this is how you handle it.

Yes, we have the right and the ability to post however and whatever we want within the rules that the administration gives us. It doesn't matter if you or I or anyone else deem it relevant.

Edit: Ugh, typos.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2013 06:10PM by snb.

So what is your cutoff of how people BEHAVE based on those beliefs?

Is it OK to bomb marathoners because of your beliefs?

Is it OK to treat your daughter like scum?

Is it OK to tell those who believe differently than you that they are doomed to eternal hell?

Is it OK to continue a cycle of guilt and abuse?

People can believe what they believe. However, some organizations are harmful and toxic. Some organizations use mind control that damage those involved and cause those around them to be treated badly.

Are you cool with the Westboro church? Abortion bombers? Apparently the junk that Mormon's do to hurt themselves and others is within your "live and let live" philosophy. What is your cut off point? Warren Jeffs? Brian David Mitchell? Osama Bin Ladin? At what point does people using religion to take advantage of and manipulate others bother you?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2013 02:14PM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

The Oncoming Storm - bc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So what is your cutoff of how people BEHAVE based
> on those beliefs?
>
> Is it OK to bomb marathoners because of your
> beliefs?
>
> Is it OK to treat your daughter like scum?
>
> Is it OK to tell those who believe differently
> than you that they are doomed to eternal hell?
>
> Is it OK to continue a cycle of guilt and abuse?
>
> People can believe what they believe. However,
> some organizations are harmful and toxic. Some
> organizations use mind control that damage those
> involved and cause those around them to be treated
> badly.
>
> Are you cool with the Westboro church? Abortion
> bombers? Apparently the junk that Mormon's do to
> hurt themselves and others is within your "live
> and let live" philosophy. What is your cut off
> point? Warren Jeffs? Brian David Mitchell? Osama
> Bin Ladin? At what point does people using
> religion to take advantage of and manipulate
> others bother you?


I will be clear once more about my passion about RIGHTS.

RIGHTS and behavior are often two different things.

Unacceptable behavior is unacceptable no matter the belief system, and very often there are laws in place to protect people from criminal acts because of those beliefs. Prosecuting them, is another thing.

I don't have any need to accept the beliefs, or accept or support the behavior or the beliefs, but I do accept the RIGHT to believe them.

RIGHTS are the issue with me.

I find a lot of behavior (which applies to all humans) to be totally disgusting, unacceptable, cruel,abusive, etc. Behavior of that sort (generally criminal in nature) is most often not condoned by the belief system unless it gets into Holy Wars, etc.

I separate RIGHTS from beliefs and behavior. Human beings have been exercising their RIGHT to believe some very strange things, especially in the past . They are often discarded as absurd, nonsense to us in this day in age. Humans have the RIGHT to place their faith in almost anything.

I will take action, or use the laws at my disposal to take care of unacceptable behavior if I can. (In the case of laws, I have to have standing if using the court system, for instance.)

I'm not sure that granting someone the right to believe anything grants them the right to commit crime.

I don't think that granting someone the right to believe anything grants them the ability to be horrible to someone either.

I'm not sure we can assume that by talking about the right to believe that it transfers into the right to do any of the things you mention.

snb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not sure that granting someone the right to
> believe anything grants them the right to commit
> crime.
>
> I don't think that granting someone the right to
> believe anything grants them the ability to be
> horrible to someone either.
>
> I'm not sure we can assume that by talking about
> the right to believe that it transfers into the
> right to do any of the things you mention.

When we choose to do "anything we want" we often run into laws that have severe consequences.
So far religion is not against the law.
The right to believe can't be taken away.
Freedom to do whatever we want, when it's criminal, can be taken away. It's called Prison!

I never had to deal with knowing the stuff and trying to pretend. I was lucky to have my husband leave first. When I have so much cog dis in my head, I can't even think straight. I have no idea how they can even function.

To continue the subject: I am convinced that our human RIGHTS to our belief systems throughout the history of mankind is core to our ability to live life on our own terms, most of which is determined by the geography and time/era of our birth, very often it's tribal in some form.

So, because I can respect and honor personal RIGHTS to belief systems, and can make it a "non issue" in all of my personal relationships,(including my 50 plus year marriage), it contributes to my ability to enjoy many different people and their different ideas.

Also, I can let go of what I can't control.

The OP was clearly talking about living with a great deal of cognitive dissonance.

None of that has anything to do with rights, tribes, or living on someone's "own terms."

The OP was talking about mental gymnastics - and the toll that cognitive dissonance might take on a person.

Thanks for bringing the point back to home base... :)

The cognitive and EMOTIONAL dissonance... I can't understand it. If you strive to be honest and "seek after truth" then knowing what you do of Joseph and the church would lead you to run from the church.

Intellectually, if you know about the fallacies, how do you reconcile that with reality?

I guess they don't/

Sometimes, from what I have observed, I think some people develop defense mechanisms which enable them to "refuse" or split themselves off from threatening information.

A lot of psychoanalysis is discounted these days, but sublimation makes sense to me, to the extent that a person can essentially deflect a legitimate through perhaps threatening cognitive response and re-channel that energy into a form that's accepted by important others.

This would be a fascination psychological experiment or field or research. do you know of any papers already written?

Most people that are religious, in my experience has no problem believing in visions, metaphysical and supernatural claims.

Also religion is and some other topics are very often compartmentalized and the beliefs by faith don't apply to other subjects.

So: no cog dis. Doen't exist.

Teaching belief systems is not brainwashing. Not in the true sense. It is how people teach their children their world view from the beginning of time.

I find religions in general very interesting, fascinating, and very creative. Some of their buildings have existed for centuries. They are amazing edifices. Same for some of the music. Much of the great composers wrote for church/religion.

Just because someone doesn't like Mormonism, doesn't mean all of the whole religious world from the start of time is of no use and to be destroyed and is all bad all the time.
Not so.

People who have faith don't have to care about facts. A lot of us here learned tons about Mormonism and decided that reality didn't match what we were being taught. The facts and our faith didn't match up. Because of this we worked our way out of Mormonism.

That is a common response to learning the facts, but it is not the only response.

Many religious people feel like they might learn a lot in life but that they would never know as much as God. So while they might see contradictions between fact and faith, they believe that they are only viewing things as a mortal and that one day they would see the correlation.

This way they don't have to attack the non-believer. The facts are true, but their God is true as well. They believe that one day they will understand more, but are content to wait until God shows them more.

A lot of us here feel that if we show Mormons how they are wrong that they will suddenly become exmos. That is not how religious people work.

So- what I said above holds true here... "god knows, and that is enough for me."

I can't tell you how many times my dad said that as a seminary teacher... scary.

It is scary. Brainwashing like this turns otherwise very intelligent Mormon people into fully worthy tithe paying members.

One day though many of those FWTPMs are going to feel a need to examine the intellectual argument against their religion. When that happens you should reward them with beer. :)

snb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is scary. Brainwashing like this turns
> otherwise very intelligent Mormon people into
> fully worthy tithe paying members.
>
> One day though many of those FWTPMs are going to
> feel a need to examine the intellectual argument
> against their religion. When that happens you
> should reward them with beer. :)


And pretzels. Don't forget the pretzels!! :-)