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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 26, 2013 06:41AM

Say it ain't so, Joe!

(Sorry, all you LDS apologists out there. Once again, the historical record of what your Mormonism actually teaches--and denies that it teaches--just ain't on your side).
_____


--The Freemasonry Elements of the LDS Temple Ceremony Originated in Ancient Israel's Temple of Solomon

Devout Mormon and prolific author E. Cecil McGavin (1900-1975), in his book "Mormonism and Masonry," argues that the obvious, undeniable elements of Freemasonry evident in the LDS temple ceremony are not proof that Joseph Smith ripped off the Masons but, rather, that Masonic rites and rituals are remnants of ancient temple practices from the days of Solomon's Temple.

(I used to have McGavin's book, until I eventually got rid of it to make room for books about real stuff).

Let’s first list and look at his claims—before we tear them apart.
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-- Joseph Smith Restored the Secret Ceremonies of the Temple of Solomon

McGavin writes:

“In the revelation to Joseph Smith concerning the Temple endowment it was promised that things would be restored which had been lost. In the early instructions given to Joseph Smith concerning this important subject [see D&C 124], it was also explained that the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple of Solomon were built for the same purpose as the Nauvoo Temple. It was further explained in that document that the Lord designed to ‘restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fullness of the priesthood.’

"It is evident that sacred ceremonies had been administered in Solomon's Temple, many of which did not persist during the early Christian centuries."
_____


--Mormon Temple Rituals Represent the Heaven-Revived Rituals of the Solomon Temple

McGavin claims that some of ancient Israel’s Solomon Temple rituals were the origination points of Masonic practices that were later corrupted and lost over time—rituals that Smith eventually incorporated (in their purified form) into the Mormon temple ceremony by divine revelation:

"Since some of the Masonic ritual has descended from Solomon's time, altered and corrupted by the passing centuries, should one be surprised to find a few similarities when the Temple ritual is again established?"
_____


--The Secretive Masonic Rituals of LDS Temple Rituals Were Designed to be Hidden from the World by God Himself

McGavin insists the lack of recorded evidence of Solomon Temple similarity to Masonry is proof that God hid that connection from the world:

"One Masonic historian, defending the tradition that their ritual is linked to Solomon's temple, declares that if their legends had been described on parchment or printed in books, these documents might have been destroyed, but that when the divine secrets were thoroughly stamped on man's mind it is not subject to decay or destruction. In this way mankind became the custodian of God's secret plans, passing it on from one generation to the next."
_____


--The Religious Traditions of Jesus’s Era Were Based on the Masonic Practices of Ancient Israel and Were Also Adopted by Non-Masonic Groups

McGavin argues that Masonic-like rituals were performed by various religious societies during the time of Jesus:

"Many of the[se] cherished Masonic 'traditions' were perpetrated in other societies not associated with the Masons. In the days of Jesus, the Essenes administered many secret ceremonies resembling certain Masonic practices. Josephus states that upon admission to their secret order they received gifts, 'an axe, an apron and a white robe, and bound themselves by awful oaths.'"

“Lowrie considered them [the Essenes] to be an association of ‘architects connected with the building of Solomon’s Temple.’’ The Essenes had three degrees of initiation and were bound by a solemn oath to love God, ot be just to all men, to practice charity, maintain trut and to conceal the secrts of the society. Some authorities consider tham as the ‘guardians of King Solomon’sTemple.’

“The Essenes certainly received none of their ritual from Freemasonry, though thre may have been countless similarities. It is not unlikelythgat both societies descended from the parent institution—Solomon’s Temple.”

"Dr. Albert C. Mackey [in his “Encyclopedia of Freemasonry”] recognizes many striking similarities [between the two], insisting that no women were admitted to the society and that they had particular signs for recognizing each other ‘which had a strong resemblance to Freemasonry.' “
_____


--Ancient Jewish Customs Reveal Masonic Origins, Even If Solomon Temple Rituals Don’t

Because McGavin can’t point to actual Solomon Temple ceremonies that would prove them to be the root of Freemasonry, he resorts to invoking non-secret ancient Jewish practices, as found in, or backed up by, the Talmud:

“The Jewish Talmud furnishes many illustrations of the Masonic system. Many of the traditions and legends, especially of the higher degrees, are either found in or corroborated by the Talmud. The veil of the Masonic temple is a representation of the veil in the Temple of Solomon.. Much of their ritual is as biblical as the Tabernacle of Moses.

“The Masonic ritual goes back to the Temple of Solomon so much that one should not be surprised at a few similarities when the Solomnic ritual is restored in its purity.

“Dr. Mackey assures us that the High Priest represents Joshua He wears a robe and is decorated with a breastplate and mitre. On the front of the mitre are inscribed the words ‘Holiness to the Lord.’”
_____


--Joseph Smith’s Restoration of the Solomon Temple Ceremonies for Mormon-Temple Use Reveal Their Masonic Roots

McGavin writes:

“There are almost countless features of the Masonic ritual that are definitely biblical and specifically associated with the Temple of Solomon. When the Temple service was restored to Joseph Smith, we should not be surprised to find it bearing a few marks of resemblance to the few traditions from Solomon’s times that have persisted in Freemasonry. . . .

“Much of this spiritual symbolism and ceremony may have been freely employed in Solomon’s temple, a meager portion of it being preserved by people who migrated to other lands.” (McGavin claims that these peoples include the Mormons, American Indians, ancient Essenes, early Druids,, Rosicrucians, Asians and Odd Fellows).

McGavin adds that these additional groups have incorporated words, chastity vows and “secret signs, grips, tokens and passwords” from those supposedly used in Solomon Temple rituals.
_____


--Masons Designed and Built the Solomon Temple, in Addition to Running Its Rituals

McGavin defers to the claims of “Masonic historians” who say that it was Masons who actually constructed, and were involved in the rituals of, Solomon’s Temple:

“Dr, Anderson summarized the Masonic theory in these words: ‘After the destruction of Solomon’s Temple, the Masons who had been engaged in it dispersed over all nations of Asia and Europe, where they taught the art to many eminent persons. Kings , princes and potentates became Grand Masters, each in his own territory.’”
_____


--The Apostacy Against God-Revealed Masonry Led to the Divine Restoration of the Mormon Gospel

McGavin further invokes the teachings of what he describes as “erudite scholars of the [Freemasonry] fraternity,” which speak of an “apostacy” following the death of King Solomon. Gavin says this apostasy from Masonry is further evidence of Masonry’s divine temple links to Mormonism:

“In speaking of the apostasy following the death of Solomon, Dr. Hutchinson assures us that:

‘’The reverance and adoration due to Divinity was buried in the filth and rubbish of the world. Persecution had dispersed the few ho had retained their obedience and the names of the true God was almost lost and forgotten anong men. The guide to Heaven was lost and the Master of the works of righteousness was smitten.

“’True religion has fled. Those who sought her through the wisdom of the ancients were not able to raise her; she eluded their grasp and their polluted hands were stretched forth in vain for her restoration. . . .

“’The great Father of All, commiserating the miseries of the world, sent his only Son, who was innocence itself, to teach the doctrine of salvation,bywom man was raised from the death of sin to the life of righteousness.’”

McGavin ties in the “apostacy” from Masonry to the restoration of truth through Mormonism:

“This [Masonic] explanation is not out of harmony with the Mormon belief. There as certainly a time of apostasy, a departure from the divine truthgs tghat were administered in the Temple of Solomon and elsewhere. . . .

“During the years [of anti-Mason apostacy], many corruptions were made in the few traditions that may have reached back to Solomon’s time. . . .

“If we manifested the belligerent spirit that many of the Masons display, we might say that Masonry is a spurious system descending from Solomon’s Temple. Numerous changes and corruptions have crept in, yet enough of the original remains to bear a few humble resemblances to the true endowment. During the years, it has lost it spiritual and religious significance.”
_____


--Joseph Smith Taught that Freemasonry was the Corrupted Version of the Mormon Temple Endowment

McGavin writes:

“In the diary of Benjamin F. Johnson, an intimate friend and associate of Joseph Smith, it is recorded that ‘Joseph told me that Freemasonry was the apostate endowment, as sectarian religion was the apostate religion. ‘ Elder Heber C. Kimball, who had been a Mason for many years, related that after Joseph Smith became a Mason, he explained to his brethren that Masonry had been taken from the priesthood.

“This bold and daring conclusion is forced upon any unbiased mind that will thoroughly investigate the subject. Every item of symbolism that has the faintest resemblance is biblical. It is not far-fetched to say that the other likenesses may be similar to Solomon’s ritual than to anything Joseph Smith administered. “
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--Mormon Temple Rituals are Rooted in the Solomon Temple Rituals of Ancient Israel

McGavin claims that, when all is said and spun, “not a single feature of the [Mormon] temple endowment was taken from Masonry;” rather, the Mormon temple ceremony [along with “the religious rituals of the American Indians, the early Druids [and] the ancient Essenes”] came from “preserved fragments of truth that were anciently administered within the sacred institutions of ancient Israel” [i.e., the Solomon Temple] and that the “synbolism and ritual” found in Mormon temple ritual emerged from “the symbolism and ritual that evolved among the prophets and patriarchs of Israel.”
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--No Proof in the Solomon-Temple Pudding for Any of the Above Claims

Despite McGavin’s dramatic assertions, he admits he has no actual access to historical evidence that backs up his claim of Masonic/Mormon similarities, per the practices of ancient Judaism as undertaken in Solomon’s Temple.

Still, that does not deter McGavin:

“If the facts were available and the original sources extant, it would doubtless be apparent that everything in the ritual of the Mormons that the Masons say was taken from their ceremonies [by Joseph Smith] dates back to Solomon’s time. It has always been the teachings of the [Mormon] Church leaders that many features of the Temple services are as Solomonic as the baptismal font.

"Since Joseph Smith was instructed to follow the pattern of the Temple of Solomon regarding the font room, should one be surprised if manyt othe aspects of the Temple service were revealed to him much as they had been administered at an earlier time?

“From the meager history that has come to us from that ancient time, it is evident that most of the ‘similarities’ we hear about are strictly biblical, while many of them are definitely associated with the Temple of Solomon. Dr. Mackey assures us that the ephod was a distinctive symbol of the priesthood and that the robe worn by the High Priest in a Royal Arch Chapter is intended to be a representation of the ephod.”

(Cecil B. McGavin, “Mormonism and Masonry,” in Conclusion” [Kessinger Publishing, 2004], pp. 192-195, at: http://books.google.com/books?id=0aKlqLvDClwC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false; McGavin, “Mormonism and Masonry,” in “Conclusion,” pp. 192-200, at: http://www.shields-research.org/General/Palmyra_Project/E_Cecil_McGavin/Mormonism_and_Masonry/17Conclusion.PDF; and “The History of Freemasonry: ‪Its Legends and Traditions, Its Chronological History‬,” Vol. 1, by Albert Galletin Mackey, James Hughen and William Reynolds Singleton [New York and London: The Masonic History Company], at: http://books.google.com/books?id=rWouAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=taught+the+art+to+many+eminent+persons.++Kings+,++princes+and+potentates+became+Grand+Masters&source=bl&ots=6TtgJrIUKx&sig=Lb_uavAhyYUZlOHfMQ1iOIab67A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gVF6Uby2JZe14APQmIHQDw&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=taught%20the%20art%20to%20many%20eminent%20persons.%20%20Kings%20%2C%20%20princes%20and%20potentates%20became%20Grand%20Masters&f=false)
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Now for the predictable Mormon denials.

--Forget Joseph Smith’s Solemn Claims of a Solomon-Mormon Temple Mason Marriage; Insist that Mormon Temple Rituals Really Came from Primitive Christianity

In reality, the “evidence” for a Solomon Temple/Mason-Mormon connection are so spurious that even the Mormon Church-owned “Deseret News” has eagerly provided a pulpit to Mormon apologists to spin the current party line in disavowing them.

From an article headlined, "Mormons, Masons and Myths”:

"Some Latter-day Saints accept that Freemasonry descends from the builders of King Solomon's Temple, but that's just a myth, says LDS author Matthew B. Brown. The evidence actually points to early Christianity.

"Some critics claim that Joseph Smith concocted the Mormon temple ceremonies after becoming a Freemason, but that's also a myth, Brown says. The history and richness of LDS temple ordinances cannot be explained away by comparisons to Freemasonry. . . .

"'We can see better parallels in the ancient world in many ways than we see in Masonry,' LDS scholar Daniel Peterson says . . . . 'Masonry does not account for all the parallels to the ancient world. . . . Does it have something to do with the temple? I think undeniably so. Does it account for it? Absolutely not.'

"[Brown argues] that . . . [earlier Masonic lore claiming Freemasonry] descend[ed] from the builders of King Solomon's Temple, as once stated in Masonic constitutions, . . . is 'romantic and wholly fictitious.'

"Brown quotes one scholar, Dr. Andrew Prescott, as saying that legends about 'ancient charters' were used by 15th-century stonemasons 'to protect (them) from the effects of recent labor legislation.'

"'That's the mythology that you have to get past in order to understand the bigger picture here,' Brown says. ' . . . It was done just for the purpose of getting a prestigious pedigree. And so you have to start sorting things out from that point.' [Brown says there is] 'no solid consensus on where the Masonic organization and its rituals came from' . . . .

"[According to] Robert Cooper of the Grand Lodge of Scotland Museum and Library, . . . 'Freemasonry adopted much Christian symbolism and iconography. . . . Freemasonry doubtless used other sources and invented some but the majority were adopted from Christianity.'

“[According to] John Hamill of the United Grand Lodge of England, . . . , 'None of the symbolism employed in Freemasonry is peculiar to Freemasonry. It has all been borrowed.'

"Brown says many elements of Freemasonry's rites--such as the Tiler (guard) and dramatization of a legend, among others--are 'solidly grounded in, and very likely drew from, the initiation ceremonies of the orthodox Christian church.'

"'When you're trying to determine where did they get their ritual and symbolism, you can see that there are some exacting parallels between what Freemasons do during their ceremonies and what Christian kings or priests or monks do during their initiation ceremonies,' Brown says . . . . 'And when you put them together, it's unmistakable that there's a connection between the two.'"

("Mormons, Masons and Myths," by Aaron Shill, "Deseret News," 19 May 2010, at; http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705384357/Mormons-Masons-and-myths.html?pg=all)
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--Conclusion: Exposing the Frantic Mormon Church Effort to Distance Itself from Joseph Smith’s Teachings of a Masonic Solomonic Temple

While many Mormons defensively insist that the LDS temple doctrine did not result from Smith having swiped it from Freemasonry, Smith's own statements refute such nonsense.

According to Smith, Freemasonry was a corrupted version of God’s truth which needed purification and restoration to its original, divinvely-revealed form--that is, as it had originally been practiced in ancient Israel’s Temple of King Solomon.

Let's not forget that Smith was himself a Mason/wannabe-king who wanted to be a temple builder, just like King Solomon:

“Joseph Smith became a Mason on March 15, 1842, and rose to the sublime degree the following day. This initiation took place in his upper business office or Masonic lodge room

(‘History of the Church, ‘ vol. 4, p. 550-51).


“Only a few weeks after Joseph's initiation into Masonry, he taught the other LDS Church leaders in the same Masonic lodge room.

“Joseph's interest in Masonry became so infectious that many Mormon elders hastened to follow his lead and within six months the lodge had 286 candidates. He gave instructions on the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointing, endowments, and the communication of keys.

(ibid. vol. 5, p. 2)


“There is no doubt that Joseph's primary interest in Masonry was because of its ritual. Like Solomon, he became a temple builder. . . .

“It may seem surprising that Joseph Smith would incorporate so much Masonry into the endowment ceremony in the very weeks when all his leading men were being inducted into the Masonic lodge. They would have been blind, indeed, not to see the parallelism between the costuming, the grips, passwords, keys and oaths.

“However, Smith covered his bases when he told the men that the endowment ceremony had to be restored to the original and pure form of Adam's time.

“According to Smith the Masons had corrupted the ceremony originated by God in Solomon's time by removing and changing many parts.”

(“Masonry and the Mormon Temple Ceremony,” Chapter XVIX, at: http://www.exmormon.org/journey/journey_g.htm )


To be sure (as McGavin notes in his Mormon-Masonry-touting book), Smith and his band of early Church leaders believed that not only was the LDS temple ceremony restoratively based on purified post- “Great Apostacy” principles of Freemasonry, Freemasonry itself was at the very foundation of the religious practices carried out in ancient Israel's Temple of King SOlomon.

As one perceptive critic observes:

“Some LDS have heard that the LDS temple ceremony may have some similarities with Masonry and the reason is that the Masons originally had the temple ceremony from Bible times, which has since been corrupted.

“The apostle Heber C. Kimball, a Mason himself said, ‘We have the true Masonry. The Masonry of today is received from the apostasy which took place in the days of Solomon, and David. They have now and then a thing that is correct, but we have the real thing.’“

(“Manuscript History of Brigham Young,” 13 November, 1858, 1085, LDS archives; see also Stanley B. Kimball, “Heber C. Kimball and Family, The Nauvoo Years,” BrighamYoung University Studies 15 (Summer 1975, p. 458; see also David John Buerger, “The Mysteries of Godliness: A History of Mormon Temple Worship,” Smith Research Associates, San Francisco, 1994, p. 56)


Moreover, contrary to Smith’s original teaching that Mormon temples performed the “true” order of divinely-restored Freemasonry as practiced in the days of King Solomon, the reality is that Freemasonry does not even date back to the days of temple practice in ancient Israel:

“Mason ceremonies do not date back to Solomon’s time (around 1000 B.C.) from the Old Testament. The Mason rituals date at least 2,000 years after Solomon. In the last 100 years most Masons now know this but it may have been widely believed in 1800s that they actually descended from Solomon’s temple.
“Despite claims that Masonry extends back to Solomon’s Temple, in fact the rites of Masonry emerged around the 13th century. It originated in Britain as a trade guild, though it incorporated symbols dating back to various cults in antiquity.
“Masonry thus comes from an era that LDS doctrine associates with the “Great Apostasy.”

“Even more disturbing is that the Masonry rituals that most closely resemble the LDS temple ceremony have their origins much more recently--only the 1700s and nowhere near the thousands of years old that would be from Solomon’s time.

“LDS historian David John Buerger conceded that there is no validity to Joseph
 Smith’s claim that Masonic rituals were of ancient origin:

“’Freemasonry was a development of the craft guilds during the construction of the great European cathedrals during the 10th to 17th centuries.

“'After the Middle Ages, lodges in Scotland and Great Britain began to accept honorary members and worked out rudimentary ceremonies to distinguish members of trade organizations. In 1717 four fraternal lodges, perhaps actual masons’ lodges, united as the Grand Lodge of England, considered the beginning of organized Freemasonry or ‘speculative Masonry.’ The order spread quickly to other countries and included such prominent adherents as Mozart, Voltaire, George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin. Some historians believe that Masons staged the Boston Tea Party.

“'Latter-day Saints may feel that Masonry constitutes a biblical-times source of uncorrupted knowledge from which the temple ceremony could be drawn.

“'However, [modern-day] historians of Freemasonry generally agree that the tri-gradal system of Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft, and Master Mason, as practiced in Nauvoo, cannot be traced further back than the 18th century.

“'According to Douglas Knoop and G. P. Jones, two knowledgeable 20th -century historians, it is ‘highly probable’ that the system of Masonry practiced at the organization of the Grand Lodge in London ‘did not consist of three distinct degrees.’ They warn, "It would probably not be safe to fix a date earlier than 1723 or 1725 for the origin’ of the trigradal system. ‘Accepted Masonry underwent gradual changes throughout a period of years stretching from well before 1717 to well after that date…. The earliest speculative phase of Freemasonry may be regarded as beginning about 1730…. Though some symbolism had doubtless crept into Masonry by that date, it would not appear to have reached its full development for another forty or fifty years."'

(“The Mysteries of Godliness: A History of Mormon Temple Worship,” pp. 45-46.)


“[The Mormon apologetics group] FAIR admits that Masonry does not date back to Bible times. They openly state that the Masonry rituals that resemble the LDS temple ceremony date from the 1700s and definitely were not used in Solomon’s temple.
“FAIR’s official site . . . support[s] the fact that the Masonry rituals clearly do not date from Solomon’s time.

“Here’s a few:

“’Unfortunately, there is no historical evidence to support a continuous functioning line from Solomon’s Temple to the present. We know what went on in Solomon’s Temple; it’s the ritualistic slaughter of animals.’

(“The Message and the Messenger: Latter-day Saints and Freemasonry” by Greg Kearney) . . .


“’Masonry, while claiming a root in antiquity, can only be reliably traced to medieval stone tradesmen.'

“’It is clear that Freemasonry and its traditions played a role in the development of the endowment ritual.’

“John Lynch, head of FAIR confirms in a podcast on mormonstories.org that the Masons did not have the temple ceremony from Solomon’s time. . . . Lynch admits to John Dehlin that many commonly-held beliefs of the members are untrue--specifically mentioned . . . is that the Masons did not really have the temple ceremony from Solomon’s time. He even jokes that ‘anti-Mormons’ will use what he said against him.

“The Bible does not support anything from the LDS temple ceremony being in Solomon’s temple. Solomon’s temple dealt with things very foreign to the LDS endowment ceremony, such as animal sacrifices.

“None of the ordinances performed in LDS temples--such as endowments, baptism for the dead,and eternal marriage--were performed in the Biblical temple; its function was making atonement for sins as a pre-condition to worshipping the true and living God. Try this link for a walk-through of a day in the life of the priests of the Second Temple (the one[s] that Jesus knew):

("The Temple Institute," at: http://www.templeinstitute.org/day_in_life/foreword.htm)


“It [the walk-through of the Second Temple] is based entirely on the detailed Jewish records that have been handed down long after the temple itself was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE. There is plenty of ancient contemporary evidence to back up this account.

“There appear to be very few points of resemblance with LDS practice today, which is far more closely linked to Freemasonry. If the Temple ceremony came from Masonry and the Masons originally had the original temple ceremony back in Solomon’s day and it slowly degenerated over the centuries to its present state, then logically the further you go back, the closer the Mason’s ceremony should get to the LDS restored temple ceremony.
“Instead the temple ceremony matches the Masons’ ceremony as it existed in the 1830s, which is the one Joseph was exposed to. . . .

“Although many naive LDS members believe that the Masons had the original temple ceremony--thus explaining any similarities between the Masonry rituals and the LDS temple ceremony--the more knowledgeable LDS apologists and faithful LDS historians currently admit that is not true.

"FAIR states very clearly . . . that the Masons did not have the temple ceremony from Solomon’s time. They boldly admit that Masonry, while claiming a root in antiquity, can only be reliably traced to medieval stone tradesmen.

“Both the Chairman of FAIR, John Lynch, and Greg Kearney, who is FAIR’s resident expert on Masonry and the LDS Temple ceremony, clearly admit that those that claim that Masonry had the original temple ceremony are 100% in error. FAIR admits this justification for explaining the similarities between Masonry and the Temple is a myth.

“If the largest pro-LDS organization admits that Masonry did not have the temple ceremony from Solomon’s time, then that’s good enough for us.”

(“LDS (Mormon) Temples and Freemasonry,” 10 November 2010, at: http://questions4mormons.wordpress.com/2010/11/10/lds-temples/)

**********


When it comes to Mormonism, Masonry and Solomon’s Temple, Joseph Smith clearly didn’t get the memo from today’s LDS Church Headquarters:

“Yo, Joe. You’re a false prophet.”



Edited 17 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2013 07:41AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Intellectually Homeless ( )
Date: April 26, 2013 06:57AM

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read the Bible and realize the Mormon temple does not fit into the Solomon temple pattern. The 12 oxen and washing tub are above ground, not under ground. It was not used for baptisms for the dead, but for cleaning the blood off the priests that sacrificed animals. The purpose, dimensions, and details of the temple of Solomon are clearly explained in the Bible.

The temple itself, or the courtyard, contained the space to even have people meet as a "congregation" or "group" like they do today in Mormon temples to go through "instruction" in the endowment. It's all a fraud, beginning with the Masons, who did not receive anything from Solomon's temple.

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Posted by: Intellectually Homeless ( )
Date: April 26, 2013 06:59AM

Correction:

*Neither* the temple itself, *nor* the courtyard, contained the space to even have people meet as a "congregation" or "group" like they do today in Mormon temples to go through "instruction" in the endowment.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 26, 2013 07:04AM


Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2013 07:05AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Taddlywog ( )
Date: April 26, 2013 04:19PM

Repeat the chant

Owa Tigoo Siam!

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Posted by: top ( )
Date: June 03, 2013 07:34PM

Taddlywog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Repeat the chant
>
> Owa Tigoo Siam!

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Posted by: top ( )
Date: November 11, 2013 04:00PM


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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 26, 2013 07:11AM


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Posted by: up ( )
Date: May 01, 2013 04:22PM


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Posted by: MelzWhimzy ( )
Date: August 20, 2013 06:06PM

Interesting ... I was discussing this a few days ago with my TBM brother and, sure enough, he admitted that the endowment ceremony was similar to masonic ceremonies but he insisted that the lds ritual was a restoration of Solomon's temple rites.

Aside from the deseret news link, which of the above sources are from "lds friendly" sites? This brother is open minded enough to accept correction when he is wrong, however the source that corrects him must not be "anti-mormon".

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: August 20, 2013 06:15PM

. . . based on the notion that criticism of Mormonism is "anti-Mormon," then he truly has been brainwashed by the LDS Cult into a tidy little corner of perpetual ignorance.

That's why, of course, he's a TBM--and why, as well, he's not well-versed in actual history.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2013 06:16PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: MelzWhimzy ( )
Date: August 20, 2013 08:03PM

He is searching for the "True Church of Christ" (his words) and is open to the possibility that mormonism isn't "The True Church of Christ", however as we were raised mormon he sees it as the closest to "The True Church of Christ" and he will only look at lds approved sources.

So, agreed ... He is brainwashed and not aware of much of the actual lds history. As I said, he is open minded. I'm working on giving him nuggets of truth. ... milk before meat ;)

Back to my original question ... Aside from the deseret news link, which of the above sources are from "lds friendly" sites?

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Posted by: hello ( )
Date: August 20, 2013 09:52PM

FAIR is considered to be LDSInc. friendly by Mo leadership and BYU apologists. This is the site that those who question are often referred to to reconcile their questions with church teachings. FAIR was recommended to the Swedes who questioned the brethren about church history by GA Marlin Jensen of the church historian's office.

Apostles Eyring and Oaks referred Steve Benson to FAIR (or its ilk at BYU) when he questioned some things.

Read the posts above, and you will see that FAIR refutes the Mason-Solomon connection.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: August 20, 2013 10:31PM


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Posted by: hello ( )
Date: August 21, 2013 01:32AM

Thanks, steve, apostle overload has set into my brain...

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: August 20, 2013 10:33PM

What your brother clearly fails to understand is that the actual historical facts, whatever their source, are anti-Mormon, in that they demonstrably destroy the Mormon position of distortion and deceit.

It is not helpful, IMO, to play the so-called "LDS-friendly" game when it comes to sourcing. Once one falls into that trap, the TBM assumes control of the fact-finding exercise (and TBMs are the last ones to trust when it comes to finding, recognizing and accepting facts).

That said, author Cecil B. McGavin (as noted in the OP) was a devout Mormom.



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2013 12:23AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: MelzWhimzy ( )
Date: August 21, 2013 09:15AM

Thank you.

He is only just beginning to examine mormonism critically. He and I have talked quite a bit about my resignation, he's the only one in my family to accept me for who I am and not what they want me to be (a brainwashed drone like them). He does listen to my questions, concerns, criticism, etc without taking it as a personal attack on him.

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Posted by: slskipper ( )
Date: August 20, 2013 08:05PM

Per John J. Robinson (whom I keep citing in these pages): Freemasonry did indeed originate in the middle ages, but not as a trade guild- at least not at first. It originated in the early 1300's as a way to keep alive the Order of the Knights Templars. Their job was to protect the site of Solomon's temple. That is the Solomon connection. The oaths, passwords/signs and depictions of penalties were warnings to each other of what the authorities would do if they were ever found out. The thinking is that these former Templars took on the persona of consturction workers, whose main (in fact only) project was the hoped-for full resotration of Solomon's temple to its former glory, probably as a Christian monument.

The Termplars lost their favored status overnight. That is why the rites of Freemasonry emphasize treacherous loss, along with predictions of eventual restoration of all things.

As time progressed the movement did indeed get blended in some odd ways with real stonemasons, but the notion that the real stonemasons were the originators is erroneous. They certainly had their craft legends and ceremonies, and like all medieval guilds these legends tied the craft to all sorts of notable historical construction projects, including Solomon and the Pyramids. But the secrecy thing and the secret handshakes and penalties came directly from the Templars. The Templar-based organization eventually assimilated some of these extraneous features.

In America in the early 19th century the institution of Freemasonry was rampant, as was the conviction on the part of many Americans that the Freemasons were the repository of all sorts of ancient and powerful knowledge (I have never been able to determine what sort of knowledge that would be). The extent of the Masons' involvement in political intrigue is open to debate. Certainly lots of people believed they were all in cahoots to take over the USA. The big question is: did Joseph Smith really buy into all the hype, or did he merely see it as another tool to bamboozle his followers.

To repeat: Freemasonry did not in any way, shape or form have anything to do with what happened inside the Hebrew Solomon's temple.

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Posted by: hello ( )
Date: November 11, 2013 04:28PM

slskipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> To repeat: Freemasonry did not in any way, shape
> or form have anything to do with what happened
> inside the Hebrew Solomon's temple.

Yes, that, plus the fact that there is zero evidence that there ever really was a "Solomon's Temple" in ancient Jerusalem. Until there is some physical evidence of this temple's existence, it must remain in the fictive realm of Bible myth.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: November 11, 2013 05:08PM

hello Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> slskipper Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > To repeat: Freemasonry did not in any way,
> shape
> > or form have anything to do with what happened
> > inside the Hebrew Solomon's temple.
>
> Yes, that, plus the fact that there is zero
> evidence that there ever really was a "Solomon's
> Temple" in ancient Jerusalem. Until there is some
> physical evidence of this temple's existence, it
> must remain in the fictive realm of Bible myth.

There is a really interesting, fairly up-to-date, article on this subject (dated April 2011) from SMITHSONIAN MAGAZINE:

"What is Beneath the Temple Mount?," by Joshua Hammer:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/What-is-Beneath-the-Temple-Mount.html

Provides the archaeological facts available as of early 2011.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2013 05:09PM by tevai.

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Posted by: hello ( )
Date: November 11, 2013 08:22PM

Interesting article, tevai, thanks!

This article reaffirms my statement. There is currently no physical evidence of the existence of a "Solomon's Temple" on the temple mount. Nor is there written evidence of any such "kingdom of David" or "Kingdom of Solomon", outside of the Old Testament text itself.

I must conclude that such a "kingdom" must take its place in myth, along with that "great city Zarahemla", from the BOM.

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Posted by: quinlansolo ( )
Date: November 11, 2013 04:36PM

any money?

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: November 11, 2013 04:40PM

. . .ETB's signature in it. The whole batch of books I dealt to the store was worth about 4K at the time--and that was several years ago.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2013 04:41PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: rationalist01 ( )
Date: November 12, 2013 12:32AM

I recently read a phrase I like; "Everything is a re-mix." The Masons made up things based on what they read about the ancients, adding embellishments as needed.

Joe's re-mix was then derived from the Masons. The evolution of mythologies is fascinating.

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