My wife and I have not been to a cult indoctrination session for over two years. Neither of us believe in the mormon church anymore, but my wife refuses to wear any underwear other than her "holey" mormon garments. It's been a long time since she has gotten new garments, they have so many holes and are literally falling apart. She's constantly complaining of being too hot in the summer, to which I tell her, you won't be nearly as hot without garments on. For my last birthday, I requested that she didn't need to get me any presents, but the one thing that she could do was have a whole day without wearing garments. She couldn't even go a measely 24 hours, for me, without them. I've suggested that we go underwear shopping for her, and once we actually did, but "nothing else seems to work." Whenever I bring it up, we get into an arguments, so I've learned to try and leave it alone.

Recently, my wife got a new job where she is learning to provide non invasive medical treatments to various parts of the body (eg. shoulders, trunk area, legs and feet). Currently, she is still training for this and part of the training will be practicing these procedures with the other trainees. Due to the need for accessing each others treatment areas they have asked her to come to the training wearing a tank top and then later wearing a 2pc swimsuit. The way she was talking about this was like they had asked her to strip for them and she said there was no way she was going to wear a tank top for them, let alone a swimsuit.

The other day, while driving her to work, (I made the near fatal mistake of shaking the hornet's nest) and asked her why she thought it was okay for her to not comply with her employers request. She turned my question of why she won't wear a tank top for her employer into, "You've wanted to get me out of garments for years. Even though we may not believe in the mormon church anymore, I still believe in modesty." So, I asked her what's the big deal about wearing a tank top. Her reply, "It feels to me like I'd be stripping naked." I then asked her, if when our 10 year old daughter grows up and starts wearing tank tops in the summer, will she be okay with that. She then says she needs to be setting a good example for our daughter. To which I say, wearing a tank top is not immodest. Her comeback, you start wearing tank tops and before you know it you're wearing something strapless. Oh yes, the old, start out with a tank top and end up making a living as a stripper in a back alley joint on the other side of town argument.

I'm really trying to be patient and understanding with my wife, but I think she's a mormon garment addict and her modesty issues are overblown. I really need a woman's prepective who's been through this to help me understand what my wife is going through.

Without a temple recommend she will not be able to buy more garments. So what I would do is secretly discard one set of garments each month until it got to the point where she had no choice but to replace them with something more risque.

Even if it's a little crazy, it's still her choice. How rude to do something like that to your spouse.

They'll eventually wear out. She's spent her adult life with over people telling her what underwear to wear. If you do it, too, it's still a problem. Some things need to be decided on one's own.

Brainwashing goes deep. Give it time.

moonbeam,

I wasn't thinking of following Westy's advice. I wouldn't like it if someone did that to me, so I wouldn't think of doing that to my wife. I'm just trying to figure my wife, so that one of these years we can get past this.

VV

Actually, you CAN buy garments without a current recommend as long as you have your old recommend or your number if you have not resigned. I did it many times. You can even do it if you have an account through lds.org

I would buy her some modest, white, normal womens underwear. And some camisoles. Let her choose to wear them, but make them readily available to her for when she chooses to let her gross old garmies go.

they do make womens underwear that is kind of in the style of mens breifs (shorter and cuter. not boyshorts, theyre longer than those and im guessing they wouldnt crawl up ones ass like boyshorts do..). she might find those modest and comfortable.

The YW modesty indoctrination is extremely intense. Apparently it really worked with her.

The thing is, she may feel a little exposed if she wasn't wearing that extra layer. That feeling fades rather quickly though. After that garments feel like a straight jacket.

I'm curious about something. Does she think everywoman in America that isn't wearing G's is immodest?

I don't wear them. I also very seldom will wear a tank top. Mostly because I don't like the way they look on me. It has nothing to do with modesty.

mia,

No, I don't think that she thinks that all women without garments on are immodest. But for her though, I think she thinks that without garments she is probably immodest, or will be tempted to dress immodestly.

I don't think she went through all the YW modesty indoctrination, that was after her time. Somehow though, through the years the cult got it stuck in her cute little brain and damned if I know how to pry it out.

VV

It can be intense, suddenly feeling exposed because you're showing those few inches of skin. Think of it this way: all her life she was taught that the difference between being "modest" - iow, good and respectable - and being "immodest" - iow, slutty and irresponsible - was a two-inch strip of fabric,a capsleeve, that covered the curve of her shoulders.

She was made to feel like she was dirty and worthless if she dressed immodestly (by LDS standards). The way she was taught and raised, there is absolutely no difference between a simple tank top with wide straps and being totally naked. Those tiny little capsleeves are the DMZ dividing modesty and immodesty.

For an LDS girl, her worth is based on her modesty. It can be really hard to break that mindset, especially if she has any body-conscious issues. I'm not saying she's right to get so upset, but it goes a lot deeper than you might realize.

I can feel your frustration. But I think you should try and be patient. The TSCC screws up people's heads. This isn't 100% her fault.

I think you've got two things going on here. One is her personal need for modesty. That doesn't require garments. She can dress as if she is wearing garments without having them on underneath. Let her know it's OK if she keeps all the same clothes and the same level of modesty. She may think you want the garments off so you can lure her into tank tops. Then, the other thing going on is her fear that she's betraying her temple covenants. There is a big difference between knowing the church isn't true and wondering how that effects the personal vows you have made to God. I think her underwear to her is a symbol of her commitment to God, but if she's become an atheist or something, then just ignore this last bit.

Finally, I'm pretty sure you don't need a temple recommend to buy garments - just a membership number. DH ordered some online using his membership number even though his recommend had expired. This was a couple years ago though. It would make sense to keep people in their garments because one of the temple recommend questions is "do you wear the garment day and night, as instructed?" So they would need to be able to wear the garments to get the recommend. Plus, once you've gotten someone wearing the underwear you picked out for them, you have managed to really, really get in their head. It is interesting though, that your wife cares more about what a bunch of old men in Salt Lake City think of her underwear than what her husband thinks of her underwear.

is that really one of the questions? creepy O.o

Wow. Who knew that tank tops were a "gateway drug" to other fashions?

I never realized tank tops were "gateway drugs" either, as while I wear them frequently in the summer, I don't normally wear anything strapless because I don't want it to slip and cause an embarrassing moment. I'm more likely to wear a tankini than a bikini because while my hair and eyes are both brown, I do have fair skin that could put me at risk for skin cancer from sunburns.

If anything, this shows how effective the indoctrination about modesty is in YW since it's really gone to her head that even wearing a swimsuit for a class needed for a job is considered immodest.

I can testify. I started wearing tank tops, and before u know it i had gotten a tattoo and some piercings, and was wearing bikinis and short shorts... if only I had stayed away from that gateway drug, the tank top. lol

How badly does she want this new job? Can't she wear regular clothes and change into the required items for the class?

I agree with getting her some full coverage camisoles and "pettipants."

Although it sounds like her garments are pretty important to her.

When we finally decided to toss the g's it took us a month or so to figure out that it was our security blankets.

I decided to go to bed one hot hot hot night without a top on and still got up mid night and put the top back on. We bought my undies first and it really took me a while to finally get used to the change.

when my wife finally put on her undies I all but jumped her bones nightly. It made her feel so special that she never tried to put g's back on. But she said the first few weeks were hard to get used to it.

Now she would kill you if you told her she had to wear those things again and she still dresses modestly. But I know what's under those cloths wink wink.

I have a question for the OP. Are you open about not being mormon anymore or your disbelief? Do you friend and family know? Does she secretly want to be seen with garment marks under her clothes? DO you live in a highly LDS community? AM I way off base?

It's funny just today I went to a school assembly and ran into a mother of one of my kids friends. They recently moved out of there neighborhood because they had stopped going to church over a year ago and were tired of being harassed, I could tell that she was still wearing her garment top. I was a little surprised but considering we live in the moridor and where she works I can see why someone would still wear them.

It took me way longer to lose the top then the bottoms. And I still don't dress immodestly although I'd like to!!! I'm just not ready for the looks of disapproval and the snide remarks...

True, I lost the tops first though, I couldn't find comfortable bottoms for a long time. I am still careful about what I wear, I avoid things that show I don't wear garment tops. I never know who I'll run into. My husband is the former bishop and very TBM, I just don't want the talk. I know, I know.

luvcake,

We live in the heart of Mordor, Utah County. I'm totally open with my disbelief, but she is not as open. If someone really asks and wants to know, she will tell them. Our neighbors, will wave and say hi, but other than that they avoid us like the plague. So, I'm not thinking it's because of TBM neighbors, but all of our TBM relatives could play into it.

VV

I bought garments just being asked my birthdate. As long as you are endowed, not resigned, you can buy garments. (By the way your wife can get underwear that is garment-like online, she isn't stuck buying garments if she likes the longer leg on her panties) The church wants you wearing garments, it means they still have control. I can understand being self-conscious if you have never worn anything that is not up to church standard.

I have one daughter who has no issue wearing tanks and shorts. My other daughter is ultra modest. They were both taught the same about modesty, their personalities are just polar opposite.

I work in a womans clothing store. Almost all the women who come in want clothing that will hide something they don't like about their bodies. I have told some who had several complaints about what they wanted to hide "you can't hide everything you don't like or you will have to dress like a beekeeper."

Point being there are lots of reasons women dress the way they do. Some women are willing to leave their box, and some aren't. Your wife sounds like she's afraid to leave the box because she won't be able to control herself. You might remind her she left mormonism and has controlled herself quite well, she is still the wonderful person she always was.

I have not succeeded either, though I let DW know that whenever she isn't wearing G's I'm very happy. Also keep noting the masonic nature of the markings. G's are not a symbol of Christianity.

It's definitely possible that the garments are a bit of a security blanket to her (tying her to her past, if not TSCC specifically) more than a modesty guard.

But it sounds like you need to have a talk (or, more accurately, an active listen) with her about what modesty means to her. She may also have body image issues! You don't have to answer this, but give it some thought: what is her feeling about her body, especially during sex?

You are being logical. That's your first mistake! :-) Been there done that!

She is an emotional being, not a logical one, when it comes to her underwear and what it represents, it seems.

My view: never bring it up again. Just nod and never challenger her or try a logical argument.

Why? It won't work.

She has to figure out a reason on her own for changing her style of underwear. It has to come from her in her own time.

Some people have very strong feelings about modesty which has a strong emotional attachment.

Try this: never mention it again. It's about her not you anyhow.
Some women are very defensive about their undies! :-)

And why am I so sure about this? Because that's how it worked in my relationship up to his death. And he was dressed in the temple burial temple clothes at his request by family members.
(It was a closed casket so only a few knew.)

The most important thing I learned about this subject was to be very very clear about what was about me and what was about my husband. Made all the difference in the world!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2013 07:32PM by SusieQ#1.

Yes on the above on the communication. When you make Love to her, make love to her entire body with positive reinforcement. Ask her what her desires are. Let her know what you love about her as your Queen. Gently share your desires. Buy her gifts from Victoria Secrets. My GF loves the underwear and says they are the most comfortable of anything she has worn. Good luck!

The G's were the first thing to go for me once i'd made up my mind church was false! It was so liberating. She'll get there. Take her out to dinner with a side trip to VS.

If she does decide to budge, don't expect thong underwear to be the first choice. There are very few who look good or feel comfortable in butt floss.

Same with the top. She's not likely to go from full garments to some lacy barely there bra.

All of that would be too much to expect. Baby steps at best.

Maybe a camisole + bra and some boy short panties. That would be a huge jump for someone coming out of garmies.

Myself, I had no problem. I like high cut on the leg underwear because it looks best under pants. I hate camisoles because they remind me of garment tops. I will only wear them if I have a top that absolutely calls for something underneath.

You might want to consider starting out with nightime summer pj's that are sleeveless. Or maybe with boy boy shorts. She may feel more comfortable starting out by not wearing g's to bed, where nobody knows but you and her.

It can be tough. Growing up, my mom was always tugging on my clothes or whispering to me to adjust them. Your shorts are hiking up too high, your shirt is too low, I can see your bra strap, your shirt is riding up in the back, etc. Now I have this habit of constantly tugging at my clothes, I can't leave them alone for 5 minutes, I always have to adjust. Its taken awhile to get past the point where I was completely embarrassed if I showed even a tiny bit of "forbidden" skin.

Steal and discard her garments? That is sneaky, intrusive, and deplorable. If the husband really loves her he will accept her and live and let live. What she puts on is her business and if she chooses to wear the garments for whatever reason, it should not affect the marriage...which should be unconditional as long as no marital vows are being violated. Lighten up hubby and let your wife BE.

Wash them with half a bottle of clorox. That will get rid of them fast. Just say you wanted them pure, white and delightsome.