I find it funny that there is a group of women who want the Priesthood and that they are trying to put pressure on TSCC leadership to make them equal. Don't they realize that if their Mormon, God is supposed to give that revelation through Tommy M.and the other bonehead apostles? Any thoughts?

Not to be a bonehead myself but would someone let me know what TSCC stands for..... I'm a little new here.

Maybe they're hoping it's like the blacks and the priesthood....... Tommy just needs to pray on it....

TCSS stands for the so called church.

Check out this link from the main page of the forum to learn more of the abbreviations.

http://exmormon.org/d6/drupal/abbreviations

Sanks

One thought is I am shocked at how little respect they get on this board.

They have never even been mentioned by name, as if -- mere women -- merely standing up for women's rights -- they do not deserve such an honor. The group is Ordain Women, with Kate Kelly, a DC lawyer at the helm, and it is a grassroots Mormon feminist movement.

They have my support, and the whole episode reminds me of a post today at Jezebel about Muslim women rejecting being "saved" by European feminist who mock Islam.

"FEMEN needs to recognize that Muslim women do in fact have agency, and the idea that Muslim women are helpless, passively indoctrinated by the alleged evils of Islam, and desperately need of Western feminist help is oppressive and orientalist. Patriarchy is not specific to Islam — although there are inarguably extreme and truly saddening examples of misogyny in the Muslim community, patriarchy is a global issue. Furthermore, feminism is not only a Western institution — to assume that Muslim women need someone to "speak for" them is insulting to all the grassroots political organizing and activism that Muslim feminists have done. It's disturbing how a the rhetoric of "women's liberation" has been co-opted to justify aggression, violence, and prejudice against Muslim communities. In what way is it appropriate to "rescue" women by indulging in and re-circulating essentializing, stereotyped, and offensive depictions of their culture?"

See any local applications of those ideas?

http://jezebel.com/5993775/muslim-women-shockingly-not-grateful-for-topless-european-ladies-trying-to-save-them

I didn't mean you in particular, JohnStockton12. It is just in general I was puzzled there was so little on the board about Ordain Women.

I guess I am a little puzzled at the reaction. It seems a Mormon defense. In the '60's when African American athletes refused to play BYU or wore black armbands when playing the Y, it was the Mormons who said indignantly that protesters didn't "get" Mormonism, and the church had to have a vision from God to change its policy. I think everyone's calm reaction was "So get one already." Also, within the church, believers quietly pressed for change -- even though they were believers -- which is supposed to mean that they accepted both the stated positions and the process of change. Still -- they pressed.

Even if they gave women the priesthood, I personally would not agree to have anything to do with Mormonism -- it will always be too misogynist for me -- but I think it is good for Mormon women to speak up for themselves. I admire that. And I think part of what I posted could be rewritten for us:

"Former Mormons need to recognize that Mormon women do in fact have agency, and the idea that Mormon women are helpless, passively indoctrinated by the alleged evils of Mormonism, and desperately in need of outsiders' feminist help is oppressive and misogynist. Patriarchy is not specific to Mormonism — although there are inarguably extreme and truly saddening examples of misogyny in the Mormon community, patriarchy is a global issue. Furthermore, feminism is not only an institution of those who do not believe — to assume that Mormon women need someone to "speak for" them is insulting to all the grassroots political organizing and activism that Mormon feminists have done. It's disturbing how a rhetoric of "women's liberation" has been co-opted to justify prejudice against Mormon communities. In what way is it appropriate to "rescue" Mormon women by indulging in and re-circulating essentializing, stereotyped, and offensive depictions of their culture?"

I guess that would include the essentializing, stereotyped, and offensive depictions of Mormons as people do not believe that the church does indeed change because of public pressure, as well as essentializing, stereotyped, and offensive depictions of Mormon women as big-haired nummies who make green Jell-O and passively do as they are told.

We know in fact the church does in respond to pressure -- that is why we apply it to gain such ends as support for marriage equality (or decent treatment for the GLBT community), the graceful exit of the Mormon Church from running the state, sane liquor laws, reproductive rights for women, freedom of religion and freedom from religion in the Mormon corridor -- a host of causes.

As for thinking "Joseph Smith never intended for them to be equals with the men," I do remember people (and here I mean MORMONS) saying very similiar things about African Americans and the priesthood. Or one could say the same things about gays. In all these cases, I honestly don't care what "Joseph Smith" or anyone else ever intended -- it would be sin not to try to end the injustice.

Correct me if I'm wrong - but I think most here want them to quit the church, instead of trying to fix it.

I guess there are two camps of dissent; those that want to fix the church and those who think the church is beyond repair.

I also have very little respect for clan members trying to reform the KKK.

I find it strange that such a group exists. Those are the rules of this club-- women don't have the priesthood. In my mind I equate it to a group of Muslims demanding of their imam that they accept the BoM as scripture. It is not part of their bylaws or core beliefs. Tscc is run by folks that make up their own rules. Like it or hate it, they make the rules. The women that want "the priesthood" should go start their own club. It would be just as meaningful.

I talk a lot to these people. Most of the ones I know are exmos, or close to it. They are still fighting for equality. They are also, largely, in favor of gay marriage. I can't quite wrap my head around some of the mental gymnastics, but if it damages the cult, I'll put my shoulder to the proverbial wheel.

+

I don't see how calling them "women" was disrespectful. I find it a very respectable term. Much more respectful then how I used "Tommy M. and Boneheaded Apostles."

I feel bad for this group either way. They are wanting equal rights in a religion where Joseph Smith never intended for them to be equals with the men. I wish this wanting equality thing would just drive them away from the church. Then they'll get their equal rights.

JohnStockton12 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I feel bad for this group either way. They are
> wanting equal rights in a religion where Joseph
> Smith never intended for them to be equals with
> the men. I wish this wanting equality thing would
> just drive them away from the church. Then they'll
> get their equal rights.


Yeah! I wish! If only it were that easy!
Do you KNOW any women? Just teasing ya' but no, you don't just get equal rights by walking away from Mormonism, although for many women, it is a good start. Until women have solid reproductive rights, equal pay for equal work -- decent maternity leave, child care options -- it is still a long row to hoe.

And I think that the postMormon community has its own issues with misogyny...

That is always a nice place to start change -- with yourself.

It doesn't matter whether or not they believe in traditional Mormonism; this is their social club, and they have every right to lobby for change.

I'd rather Mormonism embrace equal treatment for women and homosexuals than not. The church isn't going away anytime soon, and I'd prefer that no believing nonbelieving member of the church experience oppression from their religious friends, family and authority.

I believe that one of two things will come of this:

1. The church will respond by punishing them, which will result in a purge of intellectuals/feminists like it did in the 90s.

or
2. The church will ignore them, and they will keep making noise.

Either way, I don't see them shutting up...and either way, I think it's good. If the first thing happens, and they excommunicate these members, people outside of Mormondom are gonna notice. Sure, Romney's out of the picture...but Mormonism is something nevermos are starting to pay more attention to...there's an increasing number of Mormons running for political office even subtracting Romney. I know politics are verboten here, but John Huntsman is undoubtedly a very legit possibility for a future presidential run. Politics aside, we have that lovely Book of Mormon musical still playing and selling out in major cities all around America...and let's not forget 'Sister Wives'. Even if people aren't looking to get baptized, they're interested in Mormonism. Heck, CNN mentioned that women prayed in general conference...Deseret News didn't say a word about it. Nevermos would enjoy a story about a cult punishing dozens of women for asking for equality in church leadership. Number 1 would make them look bad, and perpetuate the negative rap they're trying to turn around. It would marginalize the cult further in the public eye.

Number 2? I think this would be their best option. The only danger of this is that these womenfolk will put ideas into other womenfolk's heads. Which might be the key to making the church more mainstream and less culty...even if there never was equality in leadership.

They are getting threatened and they are fighting mad! One woman I know rotates between wards in the area so that no bishop has power over her. She was told by her bishop that if she didn't shut down her FB page he was taking her recommend. They can't figure out where she's attending, she just shows up and voices her opinion in the lessons and moves on.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,857902



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2013 12:45AM by steve benson.

I have 18 pages of documentation that women held the priesthood from 1842 until 1940 in the LDS church. I second what Steve Benson said the documentation exists. The church has gone backward in this. I give no support for a church that does this to it's women members.

I'm a certified Reiki Master. Why the fuck would I ever want the lame ass priesthood? I can do more good with what I know now than my dad as a second counselor/temple worker ever could. It's such a joke. Pouring olive oil on someone's head is very differnt from doing energy work or Reiki. Fuck TSCC, and fuck their priesthood hierarchy. It is invisible and non existant in our current reality. *BLAM*

Equal reproductive rights? What is that? I've always felt women get the short end of the stick. Haha literally! But they are the ones having the kids. Glad I'll never have to do that.

The reason I don't really support ordaining women is because I think the concept of priesthood is nonsense in the first place. It would be like, "Oh yeah, we should let men be voodoo priestesses also."

The current prophets have apparently relied on Doctrine and Covenants 107 - for the general leadership roles of the priesthoods. Members need to be familiar with this section to understand how the priesthoods work in the LDS Church.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/107?lang=eng



The men in these two priesthoods have the authority to officiate, conduct, give blessings, ordinances, etc.

In short: As mentioned before, women are co-partners in the higher priesthood as made clear in the temple ceremonies/rituals. Women wear the same undergarment, and wear the same robes of the Melchizedek Priesthood in the temple. The endowment gives women co ownership. The Plan of Salvation requires that a man and a women be sealed and worthy to receive the Celestial Kingdom. The roles are different, women serve under the men in leadership roles.

In my reading about these women who are asking for some kind of equal rights, it has become clear to me, anyhow, that they have an agenda.

In my observation, women who understand their temple covenants, and their role in the Plan of Salvation, would never petition for some kind of right to officiate in the priesthoods.
It's also my observation that while women often understand this, they don't particularly like it, but they are willing to accept that it's what Heavenly Father wants.

Nearly every religion (not all) has some kind of patriarchal hierarchy of power throughout the history of mankind.

I am convinced that these women making the charge to be given rights to officiate and govern in the LDS Church just as the men do, know that it is not part of the church's doctrine, however, it is a sticking point for women who are not happy with their position/role/place and it's a motivating point to leave the Church. It's likely that is what they want: women to leave the church because they can't officiate in the priesthood.

If these women really wanted to officiate in a priesthood, they would join a different church that allows it.

As a long time believing member (convert), I understood the different roles, how they had evolved somewhat. The problem women have is that they do a lot of the dust pan and broom job of cleaning up after the men make a mess, and they are probably right that they could have done a better job in the first place.

And, it is true that some men misuse their authority.
It's like the old saying: power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Much of what we experience are priesthood men running amuk or with their "halos askew" as I often used to say.



Disclaimer: this is for information only, not a defense of the faith.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2013 12:14PM by SusieQ#1.

Do you know her personally? She says that she is an active member, and that she feels she could give more service if she were allowed to have the priesthood. She has spoken to her local leadership about it, and although they are not especially happy with her, they respect her agency and aren't going to take any action against her. At least, that's what she said at the Ordain Women event. What evidence do you have that she is not sincere and has a hidden agenda to lead other women out of Mormonism?

Naomi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you know her personally? She says that she is
> an active member, and that she feels she could
> give more service if she were allowed to have the
> priesthood. She has spoken to her local leadership
> about it, and although they are not especially
> happy with her, they respect her agency and aren't
> going to take any action against her. At least,
> that's what she said at the Ordain Women event.
> What evidence do you have that she is not sincere
> and has a hidden agenda to lead other women out of
> Mormonism?

This is my opinion based on what I do know. I don't know anyone personally. I have read what they have said, and what others have said about them, that know them personally.

I can only presume that they have an agenda, or, they are completely ignorant of their role in the LDS Church and what they already have.

My view: It boggles the mind that TBM women, with a spiritual witness testimony would even consider such a plea. It doesn't seem possible that this would happen with women who fully understand their place,role,garments they wear 24/7 and the temple endowment and their temple sealing and what they believe is Heavenly Father's plan.

This request by these women is not about policy. This is about changing major doctrine which is clearly laid out.

There is no place for women to officiate in the meetings, ordinances, ceremonies of the priesthoods in the LDS Church except in one small portion of the temple Washing and Anointing Ceremony, and that is only because these ordinances are done for men and women separately.

This is based on my decades as a believer, my study of the "gospel" as claimed by the LDS Church with a few references:

Plan of Salvation

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=45af9daac5d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD


Gospel Principles

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=ea697befabc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=0ef9f4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD


The Family A Proclamation to the World

https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/36035_000_24_family.pdf

The Canonized Scriptures
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=39327c2fc20b8010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD


In short: women who understand their place and role in regards to the priesthoods, in the LDS Church, especially the Melchizedek Priesthood and the garments they wear, the temple endowment and robes of the priesthood they wear, have a grasp of their role and position on the earth and in the eternities.
They do not officiate. Their role is different.

Disclaimer: this is for information only and not a defense of the faith.

Well said, Susie.

LDS women can only request to have the priesthood if they feel that the current doctrine is wrong. That means either:

1. They don't have faith that the leadership speaks for Elohim
2. They don't have faith that Elohim is making the right decisions

So they're either speaking ill of the lord's anointed by asserting they are not inspired, or she's disagreeing with god.

Neither of those make her a faithful LDS woman..

kolobian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well said, Susie.
>
> LDS women can only request to have the priesthood
> if they feel that the current doctrine is wrong.
> That means either:
>
> 1. They don't have faith that the leadership
> speaks for Elohim
> 2. They don't have faith that Elohim is making the
> right decisions
>
> So they're either speaking ill of the lord's
> anointed by asserting they are not inspired, or
> she's disagreeing with god.
>
> Neither of those make her a faithful LDS woman..


Good points. One and Two are part of their testimony as TBM women.
The faithful do not question Heavenly Father (Elohim).

I do wonder, if this kind of organized plea, which is against the doctrines of the LDS Church could result in the women having their temple recommends rescinded, and,or excommunication.
I have not heard anything from the LDS Church on those issues.

I do think the LDS Church has shown they are willing to throw the women a bone or two, adding more assignments in the mission field and adding them to General Conference not just as a speaker, but to give a prayer. I noticed that these are minor policy changes,but no change in actual solid doctrine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2013 03:18PM by SusieQ#1.

Do we really need more people on the planet who think they have the authority to channel the will of god/fsm/fridge?

In my former life as a TBM, I was all for priesthood equality.

In my present life, I am for civil rights for everybody. But the spreading of deific delusion does not qualify as a civil right. Or even a civil rite.

Ordaining women to the lds priesthood or even letting catholic nuns have it is not going to make either religious system any better or worse. Both religions may make gender equality a last desperate attempt to retain paying members but the inherent misogyny of both makes it highly unlikely.

Changing a culture is not the same thing as changing a cult. With or without women elders, TSCC will still be a cult.

I don't quite see why you would think it funny that women are asking for the priesthood. That reeks of male chauvinism to me.

Pretty much every "revelation" in Mormonism came to the prophet because some external event led him to consider the issue and pray about it. Even most TBMs know that.

The ex-Mormons who laugh at these women, who are brave enough to stand up against the patriarchy - you're just as bad as the Mormons.

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

Personally, I'd rather see this movement fail, and all the women who back it leave the Morg because of it. It exposes the sexism of the Morg, robs it of many TBM women, and frees these women from the control of a cult. Its a win-win!