They put away their magazines very quickly as I was talking to them. I asked them if they'd like some advice and a challenge.

Firstly I asked them, as they were two ladies, what it was that made them feel 'good'. Their reply was that they followed the counsel of their leaders. After this response I asked them what would happen if they thought they had a better way, one that would cause no pain or guilt. Their reply was that they'd be admonished for not obeying the leaders. I responded that it was time they stood up for what their conscience told them what was right and please don't let anyone else put guilt into them. We have an inborn conscience that, if we are basically good, will prevent us from hurting anyone or anything, therefore, by default, obeying commandments.

We had a long discussion about the origins of Christianity, even their own version of it. We agreed on lots of things about the pagan roots etc. so I went on to my next challenge.

Given that early religions, pagan and even Christianity, had female leadership within their canon, that had been airbrushed out by the men who wanted to keep women out of the frame, my next challenge was that they ask their leader (for want of a better word) if they could lead the service one week and see what the reaction would be. They responded that they knew instantly what that would be and I told them that was exactly my point.

I advised them to follow their own consciences and not the dictats of men. The only difference between men and women is the plumbing but that is all - we are equal. I asked them to think for themselves and read whatever they needed to expand their knowledge (we'd already covered the point about banned literature).

They complained that they were feeling cold standing there and needed to keep moving so I bid them goodbye and suggested that they get home to the warm and have a nice cup of hot tea, put up feet and read some edifying literature.

They declined my offer of a warm and light refreshment :-)

Briggy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2013 04:32PM by brigantia.

Wow you handled that discussion beautifully!

Planting the seeds of feminist consciousness in JW missionaries:

That's impressive!

Darkfem Wrote:
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> Planting the seeds of feminist consciousness in JW
> missionaries:
>
> That's impressive!

Thanks Darkfem. I advised them to 'never feel less than' at the behest of anyone, male or female. No woman is less than, even though they often are forced to lead from the back. I told them I was speaking with the authority of an old woman who's been round the block a few times and has learned from experience that women have the greatest level of common sense, in my experience.

I don't think they'd ever come across that way of thinking.

They looked terrified but I assured them that if they stood a little taller, physically and mentally, nothing would ever make them fearful again.

Gosh, we covered everything from Mithra, Egypt, Moses, Golden Calves and idols, Celtic/Roman mythology and the birth of Christianity and the roots of same.

Do you think they'll give all that a second thought? I doubt it for now but one day the spark will ignite and they may remember 'that' conversation - hopefully.

Briggy

"Do you think they'll give all that a second thought? I doubt it for now but one day the spark will ignite and they may remember 'that' conversation - hopefully."

There is every good chance they will. One of my "shelf items" was an occurance on my mission. One of my investigators asked my companion and I (I'm female) "You both seem to be very intelligent young ladies. How can you stand being 2nd class citizens in your religion?" Of course, we gave him the standard clap-trap, but of the few memories I have left of my mission, that always stood out even when it was put away on a shelf.

Hi Briggy,

From your description, you did what any good teacher does--you met your students where were and tried to establish a dialogue. I like that you covered so many dimensions of gendered experiences, including taking up space!

It sounds like they were impacted by your conversation. Who knows how they will integrate the information you shared; who can predict the new insights talking with you may provoke? You opened a door to they will probably not be able to close (all the way) again.

In my life, I occasionally get emails from students saying things like, 'I just want you to know that I thought you were full of $%#@ when I took your class, but now the feminist thing makes sense; I get it.'

I'm sure that there are many more out there who still think I'm full of $%#@, and that's okay :)

Briggy,

I've been wondering how your daughter doing. I hope she's feeling better!

janebond462 (NLI) Wrote:
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> Briggy,
>
> I've been wondering how your daughter doing. I
> hope she's feeling better!

Hi Jane! My daughter is doing very well. Walking with a crutch now so we're joking that she just needs a parrot and she's all set. Her spirits are good and she's striving hard to get back full mobility. She has some pain where the stroke affected her left side but she's getting there. Thanks for all the kind thoughts and good wishes - I've passed them all on to her.

She might even be continuing her therapy at home next week - we'll see what they say after today's assessment.

Briggy

Glad to hear it Briggy. Whoot!!! Whoot!!! Whoot!!!

that's terrific news!

My sister is a hardcore TBM. She is also a doctor, worked hard all through school, and supported a family while her husband was the stay-at-home dad. It boggles my mind how she can buy off on the church when she is so clearly feminist in every other aspect of her life.

I understand that JW women are positively discouraged from going to University by their leaders. Trust me I have this on good authority.

Maybe that's because they don't have any Universities of their own and they're afraid of losing control of young enquiring minds.

I don't know any female JW doctors, or anything else that requires a degree or further education.

JWs are far worse than mormons in that regard and they shun for the slightest little infraction.

Briggy

I just had them on my doorstep just before, trying to hand me their flyers, even when I wouldn't accept it they pushed it into my hands.
Told them we are catholic in this house (our flatmate and my husband are only by name though) the lady said well anyone is invited, told her no we aren't interested.

Can't believe she didnt get put off by all my tattoos as well (have a left sleeve all the rest are on my back) do they accept heavily tattooed people now?

where nobody partakes of the bread and wine but just passes it round.

Unless of course - there is just one 'special' self-appointed member of the elite in the room who will slurp and chomp the offerings.

Am I correct? Ex-JWs on here might be able to correct me if I'm wrong.

Briggy

Yeah, and it's called "The Memorial." I've attended a few, and their once-a-year Memorial is like a mormon every-sunday sacrament meeting. Except mormons actually take it.

If I recall correctly...it's for those who are already one of the chosen ruling class of 144K. In reality, nobody "knows" so nobody takes it. Going through the motions, I suppose. But hey, at least it's real wine. :-)

And fwiw... The Memorial is a meeting which is biblical... so the JWs make a big deal about it, (as opposed to birthdays and christmas that aren't).

And not just women... but all are to avoid education... or anything that shows a lack of faith in "the new system" coming at any moment. Apparently it's been that way since 1911. Back in the "1975 end-of-the-world" prediction, there were lots who sold everything, and when 1976 rolled around, they had nothing... except for JW leaders who said, "you must have misinterpreted us." (Sound familiar?) Even to this day, many don't have any kind of retirement or plan for old age.

I'm in the UK and I had an invitation through my door for the non sacrament sacrament meeting on the 26th March......

That was way more graceful and effective than what I do. I tell them I don't have time to talk because we are having a birthday party followed by a quick run to the hospital to help a dying orphan get a blood transfusion.

I like to debate doctrine with the young one....they aren't expecting it and it f'ks them up...

Ron Burr

You should have sang them a Christmas carol or two.

They love those!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2013 03:04PM by archytas.

Go Briggy!!