Over the weekend, I broke up with my girlfriend. I realized that we weren't right for each other and as much as I've come to love her, the issues will very likely turn out to be like some of the major problems I had with the ex wife.

I've been divorced six years now. I started dating this girlfriend last autumn. It's the closest I have come to actually feeling like I could live with someone and have a LTR. I spent time with her when she was sick and giving that service brought on deeper feelings of love. However, I realized that she, depsite paying lip service to the concept of loving me, didn't show it in her actions. She wasn't ready to offer (let alone give) the same sacrifices I was giving.

In any event, I feel a profound sense of loss the past few days. I still miss her even knowing it wasn't right. And I fear that I won't ever get the chance to find someone if I have such high expectations. On the other hand, I am not sure if my expectations are too high or unrealistic.

How can I find out what is reasonable to expect? A part of me wants to study what it takes to find the right person, to make a relationship work and go there. But I am at a loss. Another part of me wants to become a hermit and just go vounteer at food banks and sit at home watching documentaries. I know lame, but it's how I'm feeling.

Sorry to hear things did not work out for you.

What kind of sacrifices? I have found, while there are times you need to act to help the person you love, and if they love you, they will act the same way, I have also found that sometimes we put too much of a burden on people. There is a difference between picking up someone from work, or taking care of them while they are sick, and wanting them to change major aspects about their character. While I am not saying you did the latter, it is a common mistake in relationships.

Then again, just to be clear, when I am talking about changes, I am talking about fundamental changes. If you want to encourage a loved one to lose weight, because you want to help them improve their health, that is fine. If you want them to drop ten pounds, so they can fit better into the Sailor Moon outfit you bought them, then I have learned that is probably a little too much.

She was never into you as much as you were into her (sex is a telling barometer of that).

We all look for someone we are crazy about, then hope they will reciprocate. Most of the people we really love do not love us back with the same intensity. Honestly, it's a miracle anybody finds truly reciprocal love.

Most of us settle for some sort of imbalance, almost the joke of picking someone whose faults you can stand.

Truth is, you really want to be loved with the same tone and amount of caring that you are willing to give. And it isn't there. The posters above are 100% correct that if reciprocity is not acceptable when you are dating, you can look for a really unbalanced relationship when you are married.

One of my daughters was in a situation where she was allowed to be the boss of everything. She was treated like a queen with nothing expected in return for several years while she bore two children. She called all the shots. He never complained, obeyed her and did whatever she wanted. She ended up throwing him out and he cried and begged to stay so he could be with his children. So she demanded an open marriage.

You did the right thing to recognize an imbalance here and to call it. She's only mad that she got dumped instead of being the dumper. You and only you are the person leading your life now. You are the one writing your own Articles of Faith, determining your own values and enforcing them. No one else should ever been in charge.

I think this is a wonderfully empowering experience for you, showing you that you can trust your own judgment.

Going forward, please consider NOT being available for this woman as a friend because you are emotionally vulnerable to her manipulations. Take some tape and stick her email up on the inside of a cupboard near where you charge your phone. It should serve as a constant reminder, should she phone trying to obtain services (which is the only reason she would phone).

Good luck and keep us posted. We are here for you.


Anagrammy

Sorry. Hugs to you. No advice just hugs...

I am sorry. The feeling will pass or lessen, eventually.

I hope you feel better soon.

Sorry to hear this. Same thing happened to me three years ago. The pain of a break-up weighs down your spirit, heart, and emotions. Nothing will be fun for a while. Let yourself feel it. It's okay. You have to get through it to get over it.
The only thing that makes it better is time.

I've been wondering lately about the luxury/burden of having so many choices in dating partners. The luxury/burden of today's world. About "You deserve the perfect mate!"/ letting little things go.

If she didn't show an interest in giving to you as much as you gave to her, she probably wasn't as interested in the relationship as you. This happened to me three years ago and IT SUCKED. He was not even half as giving as I was, I finally clued in to the fact that he wasn't as into our relationship as I was. He sure let me think it, though, as he got a lot of making out and love from me.

I'm sorry for you.
Navigating relationships is a b@$#*.

For what it's worth, it takes courage to move on from a relationship that is not satisfying.

Just one observation. You mention your concern that the issues you faced with your gf could turn into the major problems you had with your wife. In my experience, issues from previous relationships would manifest in a new one in part because those were issues about myself I needed to confront and resolve. So, maybe consider working on yourself a little as you heal. I needed a therapist to do it, but there are many paths, including documentary movies.

It is reasonable to expect someone who loves you to empathisize, sympathize or be amenable to helping you in similar ways.

That volunteering idea sounds like a good one, and you don't need to he a hermit to do it.

Don't look for a new relationship while recovering from the old. Take some time to grieve the loss, and while you're doing that take time to think about unhealthy habits or patterns in your life such as always picking the same type of person to date or form relationships with, or communicating your needs, or not, in the same way as before.

Not every date needs to lead to a ltr, nor every ltr to moving in, or marriage. But never date longterm, someone you couldn't see yourself moving in with or marrying.

Be well.

that you weren't getting along and you weren't a good match?
Would you rather cry and moan years long instead?

Thanks all. :-)

I felt a lot of love for this woman because she seems so genuine. She's gorgeous to me and we both really had a lot of mutual attraction/chemistry that worked. Part of her personality was comfortable, and like my ex--homemaking type skills. She's more open minded than my ex, but perhaps still not enough for me. She said a few times that my agnostic leanings and reliance on science showed that I was too close-minded and a black-n-white thinking person that can't see beyond evidence. I didn't like that nor the tone she used, as if talking down to me. That also reminded me of my ex. When there were issues, she gave me tastes of silent treatments, which is something my ex did in spades. And the unwillingness to sacrifice very much. That was the hardest thing for me to see. I've seen examples of it for a few months and when I tried to point it out, she cried and told me that I had hurt her feelings by saying that I was sacrificing a lot more than her. I apologized. This enabled the behavior even more, I think. So yes, I need to fix somethings about myself.

She sounds selfish and demanding, not exactly character traits that get better over time.

Warnings signs are there for a reason. If you're spotting them because of experience, trust that. The only warning signs you should ignore are those spawned from irrational fears.

If you can't tell the difference, then the problem is you.

Thanks. To give her credit, she did things for me. She cooked for me, and even asked what meals I enjoyed. She complimented me. We exchanged christmas gifts, and hers was thoughtful.

However, she has always been reluctant to travel to see me (we're an hour apart). She would only come to my side of town if she had something else or needed something on that end. Also, as an example I wrote, I spent time with her when she was sick; I took a day off work, drove to her and spent the entire weekend caring for her, knowing full well I was likely to get the flu myself. And I did a couple of days later. She never offered once to come over and help me (though I would have told her no because she couldn't take off work). She also called and spent more time while I was sick going on about work drama. She did ask how I was doing and then went right into her work issues, bending my ear. The next weekend my 18 year old son started having symptoms and I said that I was afraid that I might not be able to come up for the weekend because I wanted to be here overnight and not too far in case he did get sick. She said she understood, but was disappointed. I dropped hints that she could come down, but she never once offered (except to say that if she came to my house it would seem selfish of her to take me away from my son--I told her I didn't see it as selfish at all). She just changed the subject and seemed to not want to get into it. It was a strong confirmation that she wouldn't sacrifice on a level like I had for her.

On sex, I would always go down. Always, because it was the best way for her. She only did once on me because I requested it, and never offered after that. I asked her if there was a problem, and she said that she'd do it for me if I really wanted it. I didn't feel like pushing it because it's not that important to me, but it seems like she would offer if she cared.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2013 03:09PM by Jesux of Nazdaq.

Remember that people are on their BEST behavior while dating and love is new.

If it isn't working at its best, when will this relationship work?

The sex thing would've had me gone immediately. "Does she fulfill my sexual needs? NO. Gone." That definitely won't get better over time and it has everything to do with attitude. You find that kind of attitude, run in the opposite direction.

She isn't interested in fulfilling your needs any more than is necessary to get her needs met.

It sounds like you were getting little red flags popping up, and foreseeing problems that you experienced in a previous relationship. It's healthy that you could see it, and not end up with many more years in a marriage, and another divorce down the road.

It could be that I was seeing the flags, however, I might also be too picky and unable to just tolerate normal human behavior. I guess I would like a sanity check. Do I have bacheloritis or good red-flagging skill?

Hi, I am a woman, so I can answer from a different perspective. It sounds like the relationship is either one sided, or she is a spoiled princess. Either way, you won't be happy. There's no such thing as being too picky. Only YOU can decide what you can and can't live with in a relationship. I'm in agreement with other posters who have said kudos to you for recognizing the problems and having the courage to get out. When it's right (right person, right time, etc.), you won't feel this way. Dare to dream. Write a vision of what you want from a woman and a relationship. Of course you won't get everything on the list, but it helps to know what you want. You may even find, like me, that you don't want a relationship (just casual sex every now and then). And that's okay, too.

And for her to say you aren't open minded is crap. You have tried religion and God, and thus you have been open minded, you have simply progressed past that.

It sounds like good red-flagging skills to me.

I'm a woman, married 22 years to my never-mo DH.

It sounds like you have well-functioning red-flag skills to me.

I'm curious about what things in a relationship are okay to ask for...

For example, if she has a dog and it normally sleeps in the bed, can I ask (1) that the dog not be in the bed with us when I am there? (2) that I get a fresh pillow case because I'm really uncomfortable laying my face on a pillow where the dog was laying its butt.

For example, how does one approach the issue of bad breath? I don't want to be rude, but smells really have an impact on me.

These probably seem like minor things, but they can be issues in a LTR.

My boyfriend's dog is a 90 pound German Shepherd. We won't go into what sacrifices I have made for that dog. She just ate my little 7 pound dog's dinner. I had it on the COUNTER.

It takes me a lot of energy to tell him what I won't tolerate about the dog. I think you weren't asking too much to not have to sleep with the dog and have your pillow case changed.

I think some of the other things are more telling. I sacrificed a lot to spend almost a year with my boyfriend in his home state (8 hours away from my home) and babysitting his dog so he could even get one and he had to travel for work. I finally got weary of the situation and moved back home. Guess who got a job here . . . and moved here.

If she won't even drive across town . . . you are right in thinking she isn't as invested in the relationship AND I agree with someone above about the sex issues, too. In reality--would you really want to live with the sex situation for life? It sounded pretty one-sided to me. I don't see you being too picky.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2013 04:29PM by cl2.

> She just ate my little 7 pound dog's dinner.
better than:
she just ate my little 7 pound dog for dinner ;-) ...

Thank you everyone. I feel much better that it's very likely my spidey sense over red-flags is not failing me. I felt like a selfish mean guy for breaking up over what just might be petty reasons. However, from what I am seeing, I was probably right to do so. Still, I feel badly hurting her no matter. I honestly care about her.

If you're not happy in the relationship then you can't make her happy either, unless she's so immature/damaged/psycho she doesn't care whether you're happy.

You are not hurting her. It's surgery. Short term pain for a better solution in the future for both of your sakes.

It truly is a kindness. Don't guilt yourself over doing what is best for both of you.

After three days, I finally got a single response from her.

First, a little history:
Because she and I often worked out things by email first, and phone call second (it helped us to communicate if we had to put thought into the initial letter), I had emailed the "breakup" to her with the offer to discuss it by phone if she wanted. I decided not to go negative and tell her that I think she can be selfish. Instead I just said that as much as I cared about her, I felt the relationship wouldn't work because I place my highest priority on my kids and that I would be asking far too much of someone to take a second seat. (Effectively I am saying that I need someone who is willing to make some sacrifices.) I wrote that my fears and doubts are keeping me from feeling that I can be fully committed to a relationship with her. (I feel that we will fail in the long run because I need someone who can give back.) I wrote that I know she was at the threshold of a new life (recently divorced) with thoughts of searching for a new job and new city to live in, and I didn't know if my life would dove-tail with what she would need, given I have responsibilities to the children first. I apologized for my weaknesses in being unable to get over fears, to communicate well and that I probably hurt her by breaking it off. I complimented her on her great qualities, wished her well and told her I would still be here if she ever wanted to talk or needed a friend.

On the third day, and no response/text/call back from her, I got a package from her with my few belongings, including a disposable razor, and a gift I had given her a couple weeks ago. I texted her thanks for returning my belongings and that I felt badly she was so hurt that she felt she couldn't respond to me, and that I hoped that she had a happy life anyway.

I got an email from her late last night, which went like this (paraphrased):

- "you devastated me"
- "what have I done that you made this decision for both of us without any input from me?"
- "I get the feeling you are upset that I didn't come down to visit you, but you misunderstood me. I didn't visit you because I don't want to be in the way, even though I know you want me there."
- "You act as though you were the one in control of my future, when I wouldn't want that. I'm independent."
- "I apologize that you were upset that I had never once in our almost five months together mentioned you to anyone in my family, like you were my secret, but I am glad I never did, now that I realize you were never sincere about caring about me."
- "When you said you cared, I must have been disillusioned because you just dumped me without much thought."
- "It's a shame you don't have more faith in me to be there for you in your responsibilities."
- "You hurt me because you seemed to wait until after I professed my love to you before you dumped me."


She didn't actually once ever say: I made mistakes and am imperfect too. Instead, the closest thing I saw to an apology on her part was that I misunderstood her on the visiting me, and that she made a mistake in not telling anyone in her family about me--but that she was right anyway not to do that because I was leading her on in the end.

Also, not once did she ever wish me well or hope things go positively for me.

My assessment: Besides feeling very sad that I hurt her so much...While I realize that I could do better in handling issues with women and communicating better, what I saw in her response (in sending back the present, in the email last night) is that she is hurt and she blames me for everything. She spends most of the email throwing guilt my way. She turns what were her weaknesses into really just reactions to my weaknesses and therefore justified on her part because I was ultimately to blame.

Am I wrong in this assessment?

(sorry for all the drama here. I just want to learn from this and I think part of my mormon upbringing is making it difficult for me to form true relationships with open communication. I hate hurting others, so I tend to cast the blame onto myself to let them off. This probably attracts partners who exploit that in me.)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2013 10:04AM by Jesux of Nazdaq.

Well, I have never wished anyone well when they dumped me. Why would I wish good things to someone who just ripped my heart out?
That sentiment may come later for the dumpee, but why on earth would you expect that to be in her first reply?

I think both of you two were not communicating well, and you have a lot of expectations she was supposed to meet without you ever spelling them out.
That said, this relationship wasn't going to work because both of you tiptoed around your real feelings, assuming things that the other person should "just know".
It is good you guys separated, now go work on yourself and learn how to communicate your needs instead of avoiding direct talk.

Her letter was a very mild response to being dumped.

There is a spectrum of reasoning resources. Many people operate on feelings, she was obviously one of them, and some people may say this is common in women. Many people operate on cold hard facts, this was you. She would have felt you were kind of unfeeling, and you spelled out that you felt she was too emotional. Since she can't even sense anyone else's emotions without extensive communication, you feel this was selfish of her.

She is being passive aggressive and going all sour grapes on you. She's mad you broke up with her, before she had the chance to dump you when she was through using you (or finding someone better to leave you for).

Hadn't mentioned you to her family at all, in five months of dating = she is hiding something, from them-- or you.

I'm a woman. Been dumped, hard. Spent my formative years in an all female household dealing with passive aggressive women.

Be glad you broke up with her and be done with this. Leave it alone now, and stop obsessing. Commit to having no more contact in any form with her, and move on .

Yeah, don't break up over email. Five months is definitely long enough to warrant a real in person talk. It shows respect for the person and can mitigate some of the break-up pain.

Rejection is bad enough, but showing disrespect on top of that and you're begging for resentment or outright hate to form.

And a break up isn't the same as resolving other issues by email. It's an end to resolving anything.

I would apologize for taking the easy way out and ask if she wants to meet up and talk. Show her the respect she deserves. Breaking up like that is not cool. I would try to make it right. Take your lumps if that will help, but show respect for the relationship at least, even though it didn't work out.

Whether or not it was the LDS church or my family of origin, I did not start out on the right foot for relationships.

I think it was the belief that I was not whole without a relationship. This is still the attitude I hear from my parents (specifically my mom). It's like the missing piece book by Shel Silverstein. It's important for each person to be whole, on their own. Otherwise a relationship can be unhealthy - create an unhealthy dependence. Also, the relationships I saw growing up were very unhealthy, full of codependency and enabling. People did not discuss openly what was going on, and resolve or accept (or leave).

John Gottman has done studies on relationships, I would look him up. He says that contempt is one of the four horsemen of a relationship's demise. Some of what you describes sounds like it could have been contempt - but who knows.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I believe in breaking up in person. It's messy, but that way issues can be really discussed. But maybe I'm not as in-tune with the 21st century.

But, demanding a relationship that works is important. So good for you for recognizing it. Most relationships have at least five major issues they will never agree on. As long as you both recognize and can live with those, it can work.

If you think that mormonism skewed your perception of relationships (I believe it did for many people), I recommend cognitive behavioral therapy (licensed professional, not LDS SS). Mormonism definitely gives people the wrong things to look for in a relationship. It tells people they are responsible for other people's feelings, and other people's actions. There is a lot of codependency, particularly in the culture.

Finally, I recommend two books by Terence Real - I don't want to talk about it (may or may not be helpful about male depression) and The new rules of marriage. Both books are about male/female relationships, and figuring out what old baggage you may be bringing to a relationship. Good luck!

Thanks, Ava
ava Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John Gottman has done studies on relationships, I
> would look him up. He says that contempt is one
> of the four horsemen of a relationship's demise.
> Some of what you describes sounds like it could
> have been contempt - but who knows.

Contempt on her part? I imagine after I broke up with her, she felt a variant of contempt or resentment.

Contempt is something a person may not realize that they have or show. Gottman had a video about it with a couple discussing their dog. Outwordly, it wasn't obvious contempt was there with the couple, but slowed down to frame by frame it was there.

Contempt may be there in not listening or respecting your feelings or perspective.

Buy and read this book. It was on the New York Times best seller list.

http://www.amazon.com/Are-You-One-Me-Avoiding/dp/0440506700/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1363097330&sr=8-1&keywords=Barbara+de+Angelis+are+you+the+one+for+me