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Posted by: FormerLatterClimber ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 01:36PM

It was awesome. We had a picnic outside, and the junior companion, just like a little kid, ate the whole plate of Brownies I made and completely ignored the sandwich lol!

The guidlines I set for them were:

1. no theological discussions unless they want to discuss the "meat," and not the "milk."
2. I am here for them to take a load off of their strenuous schedule.
3. They are welcome anytime I'm available, to take a load off, talk about their experiences, get stuff off their chests if need be, and general all around place to rest and still get credit for pounding the pavenent.
4. And most importantly, I WILL NOT reactivate. Ever. I explicitly do not believe in the church, and the most disturbing aspects of the church for me involve JS and BY. I will never believe, that the things they have said "as prophets," will ever make up for the things they have said "as men." Period.

So here's how it went. They were extremely respectful. One of them had deep blue eyes and dimples. He had such a beautiful smile that I melted a little whenever he smiled :-)

The junior companion, a cute little pimply kid from Utah, couldn't resist. He asked, "do you mind if I ask why you don't believe in the church anymore?"

Oh, young man, would I ever. Deep breath. I picked the easiest and most disturbing one.

Me: "Polygamy."
Junior Pimply : "Oh we don't practice that anymore."
Me: "I know, but it still hasn't been taken out of the D&C, as an everlasting covenant. It also states than no man will ever be exalted without it."
Blue Eyes: "That's not true."
Me: "Oh, come on! Yes it does. Where's you copy of the D&C? I can show you.
I Google section 132. And read the parts where it says these things, as well as where Emma was ordered to accept the BS or face being destroyed.
Me: "Not much of a choice for Emma, huh? Plus, I know from Gospel Doctrine classes that the Celestial Kingdom is divided into three more rungs of the ladder to exaltation. Those in the very top level of heaven all are polygamists. You cannot be completely exalted unless you practice polygamy. That doesn't even sound like heaven! To me it would be hell."
Junior Pimply: "Me too!"
Awww! I melted just a little and gave him an appreciative smile.
Blue Eyes: (I glazed over here because he started in with his circular reasoning training about multiply and replenish blah blah blah).
Me: "Also, I have a real problem about the young girls he married."
Junior Pimply started leaning back and his eyes opened wide. I could tell h was about to hear something new.
Me: "Helen Mar Kimball was 14 years old when he married her. He was 37. That's technically a pedophile. Also Fanny Alger was only 16. She was their nanny. Junior Pimply was in shock. I could see him sitting there frozen and a shocked look on his face.
Me: "Are you ok Junior Pimply? You look uncomfortable. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make you uncomfortable."
Junior Pimply, fixing his posture : "no, not at all, I'm fine." (Tehee, yeah right).

Me: "The thing is, this doctrine doesn't seem to bother most men. Biologically, I actually believe many men are polygamous anyway. Of course you have implied to me that you are monogamous, junior pimply."
Junior Pimply: "Yes."
Blue Eyes: <crickets> (I guess he was one of the polygamous ones...)

Me: "The thing that seems to bother most men is when the learn it wasn't just the women who had to share their husbands, but they actually practiced polyandry. Many women remained married to their original husband but also married JS, at least for the bedroom benefits. JS wasn't responsible for their well-being however because their first husbands would have to provide for them. Nice situation for Joe, huh? All the benefits with no responsibilities."

We went on to discuss BY and all his greatest hits, including "ADAM is the only God with which we have to do." And, "I have no wife that I love so much that I would hesitate to put a javeline through her heart if she is found to be unfaithful."

Junior Pimply : "well do you still believe in God?"
Me: "Not necessarily. I consider myself an agnostic atheist. I don't believe in god, but I also don't arrogantly proclaim to "know" whether or not he exists. It's too similar to the Mormon F&T meetings where they proclaim to "know the church is true."

They chuckled.

Junior Pimply : " you know I think maybe you do believe in god..."
Me, <chuckling> well I do happen to go to church. My pastor knows I am an agnostic and he understands. I go there for the social aspect, the music is great, the pastor is an energetic drummer and the band is awesome. Plus it gets my daughter a chance to get socialized."

We wrapped up the lunch. Since then, they've been stopping by a lot. I am happy to see them. They are sweet, never pushy, and always come to make sure I'm ok. Such sweethearts.

I really feel like missionaries need to study the journal of discourses before they're sent out into the world to find out from strangers. Although I'm quite happy to guide them to the truth :-)

Well there's my share for today. Have a lovely day my friends!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2013 01:53PM by FormerLatterClimber.

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Posted by: Bite Me ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 01:41PM

That was awesome.

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Posted by: Paint ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 01:44PM

That really is awesome. You're doing a great service for them by feeding them food and truth. And there seems to be only compassion on your side in doing this. No anger, no hate.

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 01:52PM

Good for you! And good for them!

It sounds like you had a lot of fun telling them about your "concerns".

Do you think it will come up again, or do you want to do some more anti-missionary work along those lines?

The reason I ask is for me where the rubber really hit the road with the polygamy & polyandry was reading the actual journal entries and letters.

If you have the chance it might be interesting to share these 3 quotes with them for example (for example you could print these out and read them with 'em):

----

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm
The change of scene and climate that Joseph had in mind for John Walker was a two year mission to the eastern states. In response to this arrangement Lucy said, “I rung my hands in the agony of despair at the thought of being broken up as a family, and being sepparated from the little ones...” Never-the-less, fifteen-year-old Lucy moved into the Prophets house.

While living in the Smith home, Lucy remembers: “In the year 1842 President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said, ‘I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.’ My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me...He asked me if I believed him to be a Prophet of God. ‘Most assuredly I do I replied.’...He fully Explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage. Said this principle was again to be restored for the benefit of the human family. That it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father’s house.”

“What do you have to Say?” Joseph asked. “Nothing” Lucy replied, “How could I speak, or what would I say?” Joseph encouraged her to pray: “tempted and tortured beyond endureance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother...Why – Why Should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father I am only a child in years and experience. No mother to council; no father near to tell me what to do, in this trying hour. Oh let this bitter cup pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.”

Joseph told Lucy that the marriage would have to be secret, but that he would acknowledge her as his wife, “beyond the Rocky Mountains”. He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, “It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.” Lucy said, “This arroused every drop of scotch in my veins...I felt at this moment that I was called to place myself upon the altar a liveing Sacrafice, perhaps to brook the world in disgrace and incur the displeasure and contempt of my youthful companions; all my dreams of happiness blown to the four winds, this was too much, the thought was unbearable.”

----

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/05-ZinaHuntingtonJacobs.htm
Zina’s first husband, Henry, was aware of this wedding and they continued to live in the same home. He believed that “whatever the Prophet did was right, without making the wisdom of God’s authorities bend to the reasoning of any man.” Over the next few years, Henry was sent on several missions to Chicago, Western New York and Tennessee. Henry missed his family and wrote home often. One of Henry’s missionary companions, John D. Lee, said, “Jacobs was bragging about his wife and two children, what a true, virtuous, lovely woman she was. He almost worshiped her...”.

Shortly after Joseph Smith’s death in 1844, Zina married Brigham Young. In May of 1846, Henry was sent on a mission to England. In Henry’s absence, Zina began to live openly as Brigham’s wife and remained so throughout her life in Utah. Henry seemed to struggle with this arrangement and later wrote to Zina, “...the same affection is there...But I feel alone...I do not Blame Eny person...may the Lord our Father bless Brother Brigham...all is right according to the Law of the Celestial Kingdom of our God Joseph.”

----

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Letter_from_Joseph_Smith_to_the_Whitneys_%2818_August_1842%29
Dear, and Beloved, Brother and Sister, Whitney, and &c.—

I take this oppertunity to communi[c]ate, some of my feelings, privetely at this time, which I want you three Eternaly to keep in your own bosams; for my feelings are so strong for you since what has pased lately between us, that the time of my abscence from you seems so long, and dreary, that it seems, as if I could not live long in this way: and <if you> three would come and see me in this my lonely retreat, it would afford me great relief, of mind, if those with whom I am alied, do love nie; now is the time to afford me succour, in the days of exile, for you know I foretold you of these things. I am now at Carlos Graingers, Just back of Brother Hyrams farm, it is only one mile from town, the nights are very pleasant indeed, all three of y you come <can> come and See me in the fore part of the night, let Brother Whitney come a little a head, and nock at the south East corner of the house at <the> window; it is next to the cornfield, I have a room inti=rely by myself, the whole matter can be attended to with most perfect safty, I <know> it is the will of God that you should comfort <me> now in this time of affliction, or not at[ta]l now is the time or never, but I hav[e] no kneed of saying any such thing, to you, for I know the goodness of your hearts, and that you will do the will of the Lord, when it is made known to you; the only thing to be careful of; is to find out when Emma comes then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safty: only be careful to escape observation, as much as possible, I know it is a heroick undertakeing; but so much the greater frendship, and the more Joy, when I see you I <will> tell you all my plans, I cannot write them on paper, burn this letter as soon as you read it; keep all locked up in your breasts, my life depends upon it. one thing I want to see you for is <to> git the fulness of my blessings sealed upon our heads, &c. you wi will pardon me for my earnest=ness on <this subject> when you consider how lonesome I must be, your good feelings know how to <make> every allowance for me, I close my letter, I think Emma wont come tonight if she dont dont fail to come to night. I subscribe myself your most obedient, <and> affectionate, companion, and friend.

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Posted by: FormerLatterClimber ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 02:08PM

Oh Thankyou for this reference bc. I'll definitely read this to em. I feel like I can make a dent in Junior Pimply's testimony. I found out he's 23, so I'm wondering if maybe he struggled with his testimony and that's why he's older than the average age? At any rate, being an exmo seems to give me more credibility. And I love that you provided a reference written by faithful members It makes credibility so much easier to not be dismissed as anti.

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 02:41PM

Here's the scan of the actual letter JS wrote on #1:
http://user.xmission.com/~research/family/strange.htm
- scroll down

And here's an article by FAIR where they openly admit JS had 8 polyandrus wives:
http://www.mormonprobe.com/kaitch-a-tale-of-two-marriage-systems.pdf


Note #2 & #3 are taken from Todd Comptons - In Sacred Loneliness - written by an active member of the church - as I understand he is still in good standing with the church. I have a copy and it is painstakingly well-documented.

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Posted by: Bite Me ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 11:20PM

bc, you kick TBM butt.

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Posted by: FormerLatterClimber ( )
Date: February 24, 2013 01:04PM

bc, I've been pouring through these links this morning. OMG, you really do kick TBM butt. Particularly disturbing is the JS letter ordering the letter destroyed upon reading and advocating sneaking behind Emma's back. What a sleaze.

Thank you so much for keeping such accurate references.

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Posted by: dot ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 04:52PM

and remember Helen Mar Kimball's quote about how she was lied to when she married Joseph. It's a good one!

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 05:12PM

Good call:

Also interesting is how she complains that all the other girls got to go out dancing but she had to stay home because she was married.

Joseph (and Heber) truly stole her childhood.
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/26-HelenMarKimball.htm

The other one that really gets to me is the sisters Emily and Eliza Partridge:

1) Another case of grooming a house-maid

2) When Emma found out Joseph drops them immediately and never speaks to them again

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/2021-EmilyandElizaPartridge.htm

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Posted by: WhatsAGoodName? ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 01:52PM

That's great! I've been toying with the idea of doing something similar. I just feel I've got to make sure I'm ready to clearly discuss the issues. I've studied so much lately that it's all swimming around in my head. I'd love to try to expose them to the REAL TRUTH and then make it clear that my home can be a haven for them to just relax and enjoy their mission rather than slaving away like I did on mine.

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Posted by: FormerLatterClimber ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 02:17PM

What'sAGoodName, I know exactly what you mean! It's really hard to not get scrambled up and follow them down the bunny trails when having discussions. That's why I try to pick one topic. There are a gajillion doctrinal problems to choose from, and it's really hard to know where to begin. Try and just start with whatever issue got you doubting in the first place. That seems to be where we start reading up and become mini-experts on the issue. Trust yourself to remember what you will need. And keep a reference or two of specifics for your topic that are from church approved sources. That's where your credibility while lie.

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Posted by: judyblue ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 01:55PM

Great story! You've gotten Junior Pimply thinking, for sure.

One thing (and I hope this doesn't hijack the thread, but I have to say it)... "I consider myself an agnostic atheist. I don't believe in god, but I also don't arrogantly proclaim to 'know' whether or not he exists. It's too similar to the Mormon F&T meetings where they proclaim to 'know the church is true'." Self-identifying as an atheist, a straight-up atheist without the "agnostic" attached, doesn't mean you claim to "know" whether or not god exists. It just means you don't believe he does. You can call yourself an atheist without being so arrogant to presume you know everything. :) Yes, there are atheists who are arrogant, but that's not what the word itself means.

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Posted by: FormerLatterClimber ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 02:11PM

Got it. For sure there are quite a few very humble atheists. There are also some quite zealous ones that rub me the wrong way, like know-it-alls, ya know? But definitely not my atheist friends here..

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Posted by: Carol Y. ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 02:43PM


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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 04:17PM

I loved that. Loved the way you handled it. Lucky boys. I wish somebody would have said something like that to me while I was on my mission. I think I was 'opening up' by then, I just didn't know it yet.

Good for you.

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Posted by: pandora ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 05:08PM

Sounds like fun! Next time bring up a few problems with the book of mormon really get their head spinning. There is a great list of issues on mormonthink.com. Poor kids. I feel so bad for them.

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Posted by: Good Witch ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 05:17PM


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Posted by: Cymorg ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 05:21PM

Are you a hot busty red head? I can just see that picnic.

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Posted by: FormerLatterClimber ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 05:26PM

LOL!
How'd you guess?!

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Posted by: breedumyung ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 09:05PM

Are these boys supposed to be visiting you?

I mistook you for a gay man or old lady...


Hehe

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Posted by: FormerLatterClimber ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 10:14PM

Lol! A gay man in a woman's body is more like it, Haha.
But yeah, they're not supposed to be alone inside with a woman. So we had a picnic :-D

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Posted by: cymorg ( )
Date: February 23, 2013 09:28PM

because that's what is every 18 yo's fantasy. picnic with a hot busy milf. ;)

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Posted by: Tupperwhere ( )
Date: February 23, 2013 06:22AM

lol I would love to be a fly on the wall (grass?) to see this

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Posted by: misterzelph ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 10:02PM

FormerLatterClimber: You are a good egg. Thanks for sharing this.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 10:23PM

way to knock down that Atheist strawman !

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Posted by: FormerLatterClimber ( )
Date: February 22, 2013 11:45PM

Indeed. Brought us to a mutual starting point that saying you know something one way or the other is intellectually dishonest. And as per the above post from judyblue, I am to understand it was a strawman because being an atheist does not constitute "knowing," but "believing." Interesting but important distinction.
But nevertheless, I did cause them to chuckle at themselves and their strange F&T meetings.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2013 12:49AM by FormerLatterClimber.

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Posted by: amos ( )
Date: February 23, 2013 12:02AM

THIS is how missionaries should be treated.

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Posted by: twojedis ( )
Date: February 23, 2013 03:51AM

You are really cool!

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Posted by: lucky ( )
Date: February 23, 2013 07:30AM

Has LDS Inc. nullified any of Joe's and /or Brigham's polygamous unions? -NO

Are there current LDS members/ leaders with more than one wife?
Yes! Nelson and Oaks for example.

this is simply a matter of applying MORmONS own convention that temple marriage is not terminated by death. Mis applying the conventions of traditional marriage, you know - a type of marriage that MORmONS normally rabidly condemn, is not an out for MORmONS in this case.

Has the MORmON doctrine that considers god himself to be a polygamist been formally purged? NO

So, MORmONISM still practices polygamy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyXyxfAodtQ

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Posted by: FormerLatterClimber ( )
Date: February 23, 2013 11:31AM

Thanks for all the sweet encouragement you guys! You've all motivated me to feel I'm doing the right thing! As many of you have said, your missions were exhausting. They were full of disappointing times, and lots of rejection, which can't feel good...I like feeding them lunch because I don't have to be all formal and sign up just to feed them. Maybe I'll mix up some more Brownies today (I won't spike em this time hehe j/k). I have some planters in my front yard that I'd love help with planting some flowers...maybe I'll give em a call. I'll be sure and keep you guys posted about the adventures of Blue-Eyed Dimply and Junior Pimply :-) Xoxo

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Posted by: spwdone ( )
Date: February 23, 2013 09:38PM

Man oh man do I wish I'd come across someone like you on my mission! It would have saved me years or horror and misery. I hope these poor boys have their eyes opened enough to start thinking. Great job!

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