Very interesting interview and worth listening to. Parnia discusses resuscitation science, NDEs (which he call After-Death Experiences), and why it may be that only some people remember the "white light" experience. I am putting his book on my reading list.

http://www.npr.org/2013/02/21/172495667/resuscitation-experiences-and-erasing-death

And I don't really see what is gained by harping on after death since everyone that dies was first NEAR death, it is likely they are still studding what happened before death.

A person is near death, has an NDE, then dies by whatever definition they use and are resuscitated. They recall the NDE but it does not change the nature of the NDE because the person "died" after the experience.

since we know NDE experiences happen without death but are related to being near death, Sam is going to have to show he is referring to something different and document that it actually happens after death to have a valid point.

In other words, if they were dead, they wouldn't be talking about it.

And if they weren't, there's no point.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2013 10:25PM by lulu.

Sounds interesting. Thanks

Near death experiences I can buy. But.. my definition of death, and I think it's the right one... It's always permanent. If you are resuscitated, you were never dead.

rationalguy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Near death experiences I can buy. But.. my
> definition of death, and I think it's the right
> one... It's always permanent. If you are
> resuscitated, you were never dead.


What if you're just mostly dead? :) (princess bride)

A couple of years ago my guy died in my arms and our daughter rushed in to help with cpr. When medics finally arrived they "lost" him six times before getting him into ambulance and advised me not to expect him to make it to hospital. We were afterwards told he now held the record in our area for being "down" the longest period of time (over 45 min) and brought back to full recovery. I was advised that I should prepare myself for a vegatative recovery, at best.

Long story short, his recovery has been hailed as nothing short of miraculous and he has since returned to his job of cranking out passenger jet airplanes at the age of almost 70 years old.To date, not one of his guidance systems has resulted in failure of any kind and the skies are safe for the time being.

His coworkers eagerly asked, "What did you see? What did you see?!" "Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I woke up in a hospital with absolutely no clue as to how I had gotten there."

In reponse to above poster, his surgeon said he was definately dead. (Much research in being done in the area of what constitutes the end of life. Current thought is that death is probably more of a process than a singular event.)

That's true.

It is probably true that only parts were completely dead. If he was dead, he was dead. That's why "near death" is never observed after someone has been dead for a while...because they are actually dead!

My mom's heart started beating off and on a few times after her brain was done. I was told she was "dead" then, "oh, not yet."

Remember different organs might not deplete glucose and O2 all at the same instant.

Also, more than once I've noticed people who want to believe they were dead. It was a miracle! The doctor said I was dead! It makes for good stories and makes the person feel super special. Also, it makes the doctor look like some kind of hero. Of course "God" favored them too. You get the picture.

Greyfort mentioned the youngster who had fallen into the icy water and was later brought "back". I find that interesting because that is exactly what happened in our case.

Even before arriving at the emergency room the medics had begun injecting his blood supply with extremely cold water to bring down his body temperature enough to induce artificial hypothermia. The object was to slow down all body function so what available energy was left would be directed solely to his brain and heart. Every other body function was at the mercy of a battery of pumps that handled everything from breathing to bile. It was truly amazing. A "miracle" if you will. And yes, I remain grateful to this day for the dedication displayed by the incredible team of doctors and support staff that made the last two years of our lives possible.

The NDE which has had the most impact on me was one where a young boy had frozen to death overnight in the snow.

They said that he was basically dead and that they could easily have told the family to have him prepared for burial.

But for some reason, since he was so cold, they decided there was nothing to lose by trying to resuscitate him anyway, so they did, and he did come back to life.

They were eagerly awaiting what he would say about the afterlife because, as they described him, he was the most-dead person they'd ever revived.

When they asked, he said, "I didn't experience anything. It was just like waking up from a sleep that I didn't know I was in."

To me that said that his brain was just too cold to be able to experience an NDE. It says to me that the reason that only a small percentage of people near death actually have an NDE, is because they're the people whose brains are working at least enough to be able to have one.

It tells me that it's happening entirely within the brain.

We have a saying in EMS - you're not dead until you are warm and dead. Cold does indeed slow down the process. We do consider asystole (flatline) dead ... but depending on circumstances and how long you've been flatline, we'll work ya. That said - your brain needs two things to function and for you to live - oxygen and sugar. If your heart is not beating, your brain isn't getting those. Even with a heartbeat, your brain could still be deprived and will kill you trying to get those two things. Altered mental Status is a tip off to us to check oxygen and sugar levels. My take on NDEs? And this is just from a rudimentary standpoint. I think you are looking at some serious altered mental status due to O2 and glucose levels being outside the norm as a result of whatever physical issues are getting you to that point in the first place. I have seen patients with low O2 tell crazy stories - one told us about his personal history and his wife of over 40 years verified that not one bit of it was true and sounded alot like a movie they watche about two weeks prior. They can hallucinate - auditory as well as visual.

ETA: we have gotten people with asystole back - on occasion we'll get a breath-less and pulse-less patient "back"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2013 09:21PM by epsynonia.

Interesting discussion on NPR. Thanks!

The Parabola Magazine for January has an article titled "The Materiality of the Soul." It talks about the argument that has gone on for ages on the seat of the soul – body or elsewhere. The argument for the body goes something like - when a part of the brain is damaged then consciousness changes. The argument for ‘located elsewhere’ agrees that damaging a part of the brain does change consciousness but that it is like damaging a radio receiver. The body argument and the elsewhere argument both equally well answer the effect of psychoactive drugs and damage to the brain. Only the elsewhere explanation can explain NDE such as reporting seeing things when there is no brain activity that are verified by people present at the time, things that sometimes occur in another room from the body.

We can only find well less that 10% of the material/energy in the universe that is needed to explain the operation of the university. We humans know so little. “The larger the island of knowledge the longer the shore line of mystery.” I say that it pays to keep an open mind; otherwise we haven’t really left the mentality of the Mormons.

Once you accept the notion that consciousness is not only outside the brain but outside the normal constraints of time and space, a lot of things make more sense. Google Rupert Sheldrake to get your mind blown.

As exmos, it's tempting to discount paranormal phenomena we may have witnessed. But directed intention on a massive scale, even if led by charlatans, can produce what would be termed miracles.

Of course the made up crud, like the earth as the center of the universe, etc.. goes away once study find the real answers.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,802600



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2013 02:25AM by steve benson.