I like John as a person because he feels personable and kind. Just today, he posted this on FB:

"Wow. I've lost a ton of friends/supporters since doing my most recent podcast interview. Not asking for pity here...But it does make me wonder....how could I have managed Mormon Stories in a way where people wouldn't have become so connected to my own personal path/decisions...I think the answer is clear -- Too much "I/me/ego" in how I have managed the podcast. I brought this on myself. Time to re-think."


I responded to him:


John, your take on how to deal with troubled members is one legitimate perspective. I know some question your sincerity. I don't. Some of us question the goals, however. I think a lot of us who once shared your reformation perspective but no longer do have found that we cannot sanction reform of an institution that is effectively unreformable. Personally, the more I view LDS inc as just another corporation, the more I hope gays, intellectuals and feminists flee it and leave it empty of value. For me, it's a corporation that doesn't provide an actual product that benefits humanity. It uses guile to foment fear in order to suck money and time from members while offering them a reprieve from the spiritual horrors that it created in the first place. To me, it's appearing more and more like organized crime--it sells protection services from problems it creates in the mind (and lives) of its members. It's a monolithic beast which seeks illegitimate loyalty and ill-gotten money from members who have misplaced trust.

Encouraging reform of such an organization doesn't change its core problem and foundation that was set up and continues at heart for primarily exploiting people using fear and guilt. If the doctrines of celestial heaven are false, then they have no real product and any reform doesn't change that.

On the idea of reform, let's say they alter their policy on gays (just as they did with blacks). Did the 1978 policy shift mean they were not exploiting blacks anymore? Hardly. It meant they included them deeper in the exploitation of temple worthiness with full tithing. The benefits that blacks didn't have by going to the temple weren't an actual blessing. The temple blessings are just a trick to get time and money.

Likewise, helping LDSinc to accept diversity doesn't serve a purpose except to help them keep the tent fuller for exploiting more people with their guilt and fear foundation.

I hope the church continues to marginalize itself from people of value. I hope it loses its breath and deflates. I know that is harsh, but it is how I feel.

On the other hand, I know that many ex-mos and NOMS feel the culture is valuable as a distinct American heritage. I can agree with that, but the model there is to turn it into a culture, not a reformed cult.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2013 01:53PM by Jesus Smith.

FB friends are not the same as real life friends. I totally get why someone who was only his fb friend over a common interest defriends him when the interest shifts.

In a thread spawned by this one, thingsithink Wrote:
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> You commented on culture in your Dehlin post.
>
> I'm just curious what you mean about some people
> liking the culture apart from the Mormon church.
> What is the culture if you'd care to comment.
> Thanks.

I think the best way to understand it is to see how cultural jews came about from religious judaism. The mormon culture was historically instrumental in forming the west as it is today. The people have a strange perspective, and for good or bad, they are a unique people. Even as an exmo, my perspective of life is forever altered by the lens I was raised to believe, no matter how much I wish to toss it away.

Another analogous group is southerners in the US. They have very distinct cultural tendencies even though they were on the losing side of the civil war and defunct philosophies about slavery and equality. And yet, it is interesting and educational to visit the deep south and experience their unique colloquialisms, foods, lifestyle and viewpoints.

I won't list the many culutural aspects of mormonism hardly worth keeping (mostly related to the doctrine). A few cultural elements worth keeping:

Historically, the members as pioneers did sacrifice a lot to make their way west and build cities in Utah and the mountain west. They have been tied to numerous historical events that are important, such as participating in the gold rush, developing irrigation techniques, much of the trails westward, the increased awareness of genealogy, the BYU passing game of the 1980s, funeral potatoes and green jello with carrot strips. (haha)

I could dig up more if really pressed. Others here may also contribute some. If we're honest with ourselves, we can admit that mormons have done good things, and the members collectively (despite their criminal leaders) have made positive contributions to the world. I believe some of those contributions would not have happened if they weren't mormons. That doesn't make them any more true than lutherans who protested the catholic hegemony.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2013 02:13PM by Jesus Smith.

I have a hard time understanding John Dehlin. He seems honest and sincere and a genuinely nice guy. But for the life of me, I don't know why he is so distraught about Mormonism. Is distraught the right word? He seems obsessed with balancing membership with the truth, and it's obvious to anyone familiar with this religion that that's not possible.

There is an illusion that you get when you live in Utah that the Mormon church is this big, important, towering thing. It's easy to get the idea that the whole world revolves around the Mormon church. I think he needs to get out of Utah and anywhere else that the Mormon church holds any prominence and take a break from all of this for a few years, make new friends, pursue his career, and try to realize that the Mormon church is actually a very, very minor and insignificant thing in the world. It has fewer members than the Seventh-day Adventist Church, for example. Try to imagine the importance of the Adventists in world affairs, and you'll see what I mean.

Mormonism is a tempest in a teapot. There are much better things out there to explore. I watch Dehlin flailing around in this very public display of apparent denial over this rinky dink religion, and I just can't understand the appeal to John.

..and I've been a poster since the very beginning. Maybe that is because it so clearly states an idea that I have not managed to put it words. "There is an illusion that you get when you live in Utah that the Mormon church is this big, important, towering thing. It's easy to get the idea that the whole world revolves around the Mormon church." I read that and cried "BINGO". Mormonism is indeed "a tempest in a teapot".

I find the idea that anyone would think the cultural trappings of Mormonism to be so appealing as to negate the downside of membership in the cult to be abhorrent. Dehlin may be a wonderful individual and I know many on this board respect him but I'm afraid he is still suffering from Mormon Arrogance which seems to infect most TBMS and from which even few exmos completely recover. As someone who lived a very long time in Utah and allowed myself to be subjugated to the ideas of the cult & culture I offer my observation that many exmos on this board still have that same mindset. It is most notably expressed by those who express their most ardent disbelief in the falsity of the organization and subsequently relent they can't find somewhere else to raise a family. I am a conservative Christian with many of the same values that Mormons claim to hold dear but I wouldn't trade my life- spent in one of the most liberal areas of the country- for life behind the "Zion Curtain" and all its cultural trappings for all the money in the world.

munchybotaz Wrote:
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> n/t

I don't think he's really distraught over it - so much as he wants to stay in it and figures he can be the guy to help reform it somewhat so that it's more palatable to people.

But I honestly think that there's a paycheck in it for him to. Directly from LDS Inc.? Quite possibly

Makurosu Wrote:
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>
> There is an illusion that you get when you live in
> Utah that the Mormon church is this big,
> important, towering thing.

I can't help but wonder if that is not illusion sometimes encouraged on Rfm, too.

Typical mormon. He loses lots of friends and supporters and thinks the problem is with him! I look forward to the day he gets off the fence.

john d needs major phyco therapy!

Yes most of us have been in this exact position. Where I came to a point to either keep my mouth shut, or follow my own sanity. Sanity includes gathering info and making sound and rational decisions. Unfortunately in the city of moville live those who see no shades of gray. Actually that mentality helped me make my final decision to move away from that city and leave behind friends and family. I suppose, without really knowing John, that he finds himself wandering on the outskirts of town wondering where he will reside next. A rather unsettling, yet healthy place to be. I wish him the best.

Maybe some of your friends feel used or misled. Several times during your recent podcast interview, you refer to yourself as “Frodo, the ring bearer,” the leader of a large group of dissidents, the advocate of the voiceless, etc. You took upon yourself a mantle to represent those who suffer, those who leave and those who want reform.

When you spoke to the GA (Holland) you spoke of yourself as a representative. Maybe many saw you in this light too and now feel betrayed by you.

Maybe some of these people saw something different than a casual leader who could return to the very institution which has caused so much grief, suffering, judgmentalism, hurt, anger, and separation. Maybe you should have known yourself better before you assumed the role of leader of hurt people.

I just re-read my comment. While I don't agree with John's move and I believe he may have allowed himself to be used by church leaders, he is a kind person and I personally wish him the best in his life, whatever he decides.

We have all been through enough crap already. Happy trails.

I don't know about the rest of you but I didn't join the Church because I wanted a social club. I joined it because I was persuaded that it was the one, true church and I needed to follow it's teachings as they were 100% true and lead by a prophet and had historicallly accurate, true, additional scriptures.

And if it was indeed true, it deserved my tithing and I had to wear garments as commanded to by God, obey their leaders, worship in the temple, etc.

But if it was built on a lie, then nothing can ever change that despite any reforms it makes today. So people simply need to know the truth of its beginnings and label it for what it truly is - a made-up religion that can be as nearly proven a fraud as possible.

I wonder if, after testing the waters, and hearing from exmo's, John just didn't have what it takes to be an ex mormon.

He couldn't handle all the REAL friends and family leaving. The problems with making money in Utah once you've taken a stand.

I can understand why someone wouldn't want to do that. Either way, the price is high.

He put himself in a situation where he had to choose. Fence sitting can get to be as painful as either choice. There may have been some bribery, or coercion involved.

Choosing to be true to yourself is seldom easy. You may lose everything and everyone but yourself. Choosing a religion to keep friends, family, and money in your life might seem like a no brainer. That is, until your soul starts bleeding out and dying.

The church puts almost every member in position to experience this type of unnecessary torment. First the church torments the one who leaves, then they set the members to finishing them off.

Consciously choosing to stay fully involved in a cult has to be the decision from hell. I couldn't do it.

Well, I simply broke it down to this.

I am a mom with multiple little kids to raise, educate, and love. Where should my focus, the majority of my time, love, patience, and respect be? I can choose to:

A: Spend large amounts of time at church meetings, reading lessons to teach to other children or women, meetings where we plan other meetings, visit teaching other women, spend one hour actually WITH my kids in SM then 2 more hours away from them in other meetings (or worse, spend 2 more hours stuck in a classroom with other people's kids), spend each Monday night regurgitating a lesson from a magazine......

B: Spend large amounts of time WITH my kids doing KID things; going to the zoo, watching the animals, going to the park playing in the stream and the dirt, digging up worms and seeing how they wiggle, growing flowers and watching the butterflies and ladybugs, going to the library, listening to all sorts of books on CD's, coloring pictures to send to Grandma.......

Um, which is really going to matter in the Mormon Church's "eternity"? I'll choose my kids any day over the Church's busywork ANY day.

We gardened, planted flowers, went to the library, boating, camping, etc. My parents were converts, never TBM, and inactive. They did not indoctrinate us with any religion. She died when I was in middle school so I am extremely happy to have an early life free of morgbot memories, and stress. Unfortunately I have to live around the mindset, and culture now, and it is traumatizing. If my whole life were full of that BS I don't know what I would do.

As far as culture, I think morgbots highly overvalue theirs. It is destructive, and I don't know if they will ever understand what a more average normal is, and be able to keep the actual good aspects, which I do not think are many.

People leave behind their cultures all the time. My Swedish great grandparents came to the U.S., and insisted on speaking English in their home. We have no Swedish traditions that I can recall. My great grandfather paid an attorney to teach him the law. They actively chose to adopt their new culture, and minimize their native culture. My ethnic German grandparents kept their culture, but culturally my mother was really an American, and took the best elements like their hard work, honesty, etc. like the Swedish side did. None of them clung to judgments, stereotypes, spiritual beliefs, insularity, etc. Morgbot culture thrives on those, and on its alleged superiority. I don't see them leaving behind their worst aspects any time soon, because they take too much pride in the worst. Their culture cannot separate universal good values from dogmatic beliefs about those values, and about outsiders.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2013 09:47PM by atheist&happy:-).

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Qoute:
On the other hand, I know that many ex-mos and NOMS feel the culture is valuable as a distinct American heritage. I can agree with that, but the model there is to turn it into a culture, not a reformed cult.
------

I kind of agree here, neither their culture nor their dogma can be changed without the other.

I think its very weird though if someone loves mormon culture but hates their dogmas.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2013 06:55PM by coffee and cigarettes.

John Dehlin is happier as a believer. That's what it comes down to. It works for him, even though he knows intellectually that it's not true.

John is not a beliver.

That's what blows my mind. How can you baptize your children into a church you know is a fraud, ordain them in the priesthood, etc??? I just can't fathom doing that with a clear conscience.

I got this vibe from day one. He was fishing for info for his career, which is very likely funded by LDS Inc. - due to his brother's past work experience for TSCC and connections at the top and his own!

I don't think he ever planned to leave the cult

Mormons who want to stay in the church for the "community" or the "culture" or the traditions or what they see as the few good points, are like the wife who wants to stay in a marriage with a husband who cheats on her, gambles away the money, beats the kids and the dog, but she doesn't want to divorce him because he does have some good points, and she likes being married. So she hopes she will someday be able to reform him.

Ain't gonna happen.

Nice analogy, richardp. Great seeing you on the board.

Bullseye

I listened to part one of his podcast and he sounds like such a delusional person when he talks about his meetings with Holland. He claimed that he had a whole list of questions...really hard questions about the history, first vision, polygamy, translation of BofM, and many others. Then he says he didn't ask the questions because he didn't want to seem cruel or harsh. WTF?

John was there to REPRESENT people who are being treated badly by this organization. It was like watching a guy like MLK just say, nevermind...we don't really need rights for blacks because the vice president of the united states met with me and was a little cry baby and I felt sorry for him. John BLEW IT! He SUCKED IT! And now he wants to be their house boy. Well the rest of us out here in the cold are not going to call YOU our friend when you are in the house with the master that rapes and whips us.

I hope he looses many more of his friends on FB because he has not been a friend to people if he turns on them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2013 08:41PM by upsidedown.

Some a little, some a LOT. But for those with personal integrity it is worth it. And is it worth it to keep feeding your kids Kool-aid because it is easier for YOU? More comfortable for YOU? Because you enjoy the "culture"? How many of us wish our parents had wised up and left before we were born saving us the pain of having to live that way?

Some times in life you have to put your big people pants on, square your shoulders and do what you know is right.

Not whine about what you might loose.

+100

Life is hard. Being real is harder. You either lie, pretend, and reap the "reward" that come with being fake, or you risk it all. I chose to risk it all. Most here chose that same fate. It hurt like hell. I almost lost my dh. I lost the respect of close family and friends. I didn't care. I'd rather live a real life, than be a phony. People have to start over all the time financially. It's hard, but doable. If that was his reason for staying, it's a sad one. If he truly doesn't believe, but thinks he can make a difference being part of the machine, good luck. I for one wouldn't trade places with him for all the money and prestige in the world.

I agree 100%. I've said it many times before - I hope they never accept gays. We don't need the cult for anything. The only thing I worry about are those gay kids kicked out of home and those who, like me at one time, believe the lie 100% and can see no way out except suicide.

Dehlin can't appease people who believe lies and hate truth unless he too becomes a liar, even if only by omission.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2013 08:49PM by ozpoof.

Organized religion epitomized.

they did a reversal. He talks the right talk and saves face by how he's returning. I believe that he is very insincere behind his affable demeaner. JMHO