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Posted by: sparkyguru ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 04:56PM

If you were the research type at all you probably found a doctrine /issue here or there that bothered you. You had to put that on your dissonance shelf to not worry about till the next life when God would answer all your questions.

As TBMs we all had the shelf, for example most of the iron rod grabbing ensign wielding TBMs stick polygamy on a shelf.

I discussed this concept with a TBM friend of mine and told him that after a while my shelf wasn't big enough for it all.

So I got to wondering just how big our shelves were and what kind of things we kept on them.

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Posted by: starkravingmad ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 05:10PM

God's "great plan of happiness" reaching statistically nobody.

Evolution.

Age of the Earth.

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Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 05:11PM

polygamy. Why men can be sealed to two women, but the women can't do the same. Why I needed my ex from 30 years ago to give permission for me to be sealed to my husband of 20 years.

Why my kids were considered sealed to a man they've never met. And, that man doesn't even know they exist.

Why there's no recourse for members who are having problems with a leader.

Why they want to interview the kids so much. Why they interfere in the lives of the kids and family so much.

Relief society is so boring, and basically useless. Why?

Numerous problems with the D&C, and church history. The obvious coverups and lying. What else are they hiding?

Mark Hoffman

The crazy kolob stuff.

The whole silliness of garments.

Being anti family while calling themselves a family church.

Sending kids on missions in their prime college years.

Taking grandparents away from family for multiple missions.

Fast and Testimony meetings. It was like opening the windows in the nut house.

Endless meetings that were pointless waste of time.

Where is all this money going?

Members cleaning the church.

Nobody had answers to some of my biggest questions. Not even the big 15. I got sick of hearing that God will sort it out in the next life.

The useless, silly temple ceremony. the closed weddings. Baptism for the dead. All a silly waste of time and money.

Service projects for people who could do it themselves.

The biggest one of all. Why does getting to the CK depend on me having other people doing things for me? That makes no sense. We don't have control over what other people do, or don't do. That's a shaky way to get to heaven.

I'm sure there's more, I just can't think of them all.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2013 05:37PM by Mia.

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Posted by: Makurosu ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 05:20PM

The negativity was a big problem for me. It seemed like everything was bad: music, books, television, non-Mormon friends, etc. Unless it's related to the Mormon church somehow -- then it's good, even if it sucks. It seemed like my non-Mormon friends were better people and more honest than the Mormons I knew at church. But none of that matters. If it's not Mormon, then it's at the very least suspect and probably bad and maybe even Satanic. And one day, Jesus is going to come again and wipe out everyone who doesn't go to the Mormon church. Or maybe certain good Christian churches like Brigham Young said in Discourses.

I just got really tired of the relentless negativity and pessimism about everything. I think that was #1 on my shelf. If the Mormon church was true, then God is really down in the dumps a lot.

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Posted by: notinthislifetime ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 10:41PM

Ditto.

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Posted by: Cathy ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 05:24PM

The arbitrariness of "blessings", the never-ending necessity to pour work, money, and effort into a very rich church, fake people, fake leadership, uninspired callings, a patriarchal blessing that was wrong (terribly wrong) right from the start, which showed me the patriarch had been influenced by my father's manipulations, having to pay increasing amounts of tithing in order to go to a building and do ceremonies I found bizarre and unsettling, Joseph's many "wives" and pedophilic tendencies, the whacked-out clothes worn in the temple (and we had to rent them too!), the fact that scripture study left me empty...well, that everything left me empty (I never felt anything, ever), good things happening to bad people and having church authorities explain it in ridiculous ways, never ever feeling like I was good enough or could try hard enough...

I could go on for so long on a topic like this.

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Posted by: sparkyguru ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 07:31PM

ok the patriarchical blessing peaked my interest, please share details if you are willing!

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Posted by: sparkyguru ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 07:46PM

in the order of shelving

I remember putting blacks and the PH on the self first
then the mark hoffman thing
then going through the temple (I thought we are a cult!! just like the gadiaton robbers!)
then on my mission up went speaking in tongues (it originally was adamic language (not learning spanish)
polygamy didn't bug me (always believed there is love enough to go around and jealousy is just about being selfish. so polygamy didn't hit the shelf on its own, but the idea that it was ok for men but not ok for women and then not ok for gays... that didn't seem fair and up on the shelf it went

then hearing GBH say we didn't teach the king follet stuff, that had to go on the self because I really liked that doctrine. I think that comment was the first time the shelf creaked for me.

then the mountain medows massacre, I had to self that because It didn't understand why it was covered up.

I dug deeper and found out about magical jupiter talisamns and peep stones and treasure digging. also found BY and adam god doctrine.

at that point my shelf was pretty loaded, I prayed like crazy even got my own personal revelation on it all and convinced myself that the ends justify the means (unlike GBH I did believe I heard a voice)

I held on to that string of hope and kept the shelf up for another year, but finally I couldn't stop thinking about what I had found and had to know more. My oldest was about 18 and thinking mission and all that. I dug back into the research with a vengeance. the shelf collapsed almost immediately

crappy shelf, turns out I didn't need it after all, the world made far better sense without it.

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Posted by: Cathy ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 08:08PM

Sure.

I was an older teenager well known for my musical abilities in Southern California - I performed with a singing & dancing group (I'm a pianist) very much like the Young Ambassadors, as well as being involved in literally thousands of other groups and such. In addition, my family was stunningly dysfunctional - my parents couldn't stand each other, my mother feared my father (rightly so), and us kids were used as pawns against her. He was, and remains, a truly evil, repulsive, manipulative person - I have NO contact with him whatsoever. My mother passed away a few years ago.

The big thing in our family was to always put across a good front. Nobody was to EVER know anything was wrong - it was stunning, how much effort we had to put in to try and act as though everything was wonderful at all times. My father worked over every bishop, counselor, stake president, regional director, anyone he possibly could, to make sure everyone knew he was a spiritual giant, that he was a brilliant, amazing, unfulfilled man whose life was being ruined by my supposedly cold, nasty, wicked, ailing mother, none of which was true. We moved often, due to his job, and he always a reason to precede us, ostensibly to find a home and scope out his new work environment. What he was also doing was hitting up every church authority within 100 miles, demonizing my mother and us kids so that, by the time we got there, we were doomed. We were ungrateful wretches who didn't understand the incredible opportunity we had to be J.W.'s children. Most people just heard parts of this - it was mostly aimed at the higher authorities so my father felt super bada**.

I naively thought my "blessing" would be at least somewhat inspired, but failed to realize (at that time) the depth of my father's depravity and determination to portray himself and our family as spiritually blessed to have him around. The patriarch gave the standard blessing - yada, yada, yada, you have great musical talent, you'll be blessed to work in many church callings in music (whoa, no one saw THAT one coming), blah, blah. But, one sentence, early on, stuck out instantly - he said I was fortunate in having been blessed to come to an "earthly family in which there is great love - the father for the mother, the mother for the father, the children for their parents, and the parents for their children". I didn't really notice it until I read it later, but "shelved" it, figuring there must be more to it.

Many years later, after being troubled by it for a long time, I asked a church "authority" about it. He said, as two subsequent "authorities" did, that it must have meant that my heavenly family was loving. It was my heavenly family the patriarch had been referring to. Right. My heavenly family. It clearly stated my family "here", but, again, I shelved it.

A few years later I was SO troubled by it, though it might seem a small thing to other people, I met with my bishop (I know, but I thought it was what I was supposed to do), told him about the "blessing" and my concerns about it (and the circumstances surrounding it), and asked if I could have another one. He was a kind bishop - we were friends and he was a generous and decent guy. His answer, as dictated by the higher-up's, I'm sure - "No." Nothing else - just a flat "No". I was crushed and, in hindsight, I started wobbling about the church more than ever, at that point.

My father had influenced the patriarch, doing the gladhanding and backslapping whenever possible so he felt important and popular. The patriarch had, of course, come up with absolutely nothing inspired or even imaginative. Worse, we were told (I assume it's the same now) to not share our "blessing" with anyone because it was too sacred, too special, too personal. Obviously that was to keep the blessing under wraps so it wasn't so easily busted and shown to be a fraud. That was one of many shelf items, but, over time, it became a fairly weighty item up there - it really showed the total lack of inspiration and ability for members to manipulate church authorities improperly.

Kinda long, but it's something important to me to share. I hope lurkers read info like this, look at their own "blessings", and realize they're bogus - just mass produced statements and material that don't mean anything. I mean, the patriarch interviewed me for half an hour before the blessing - he had everything he needed just from me to personalize the "blessing", not to mention the undue influence of my father, who was evil. So evil, BTW, that at our oldest son's baptism a close friend of mine who had never met him walked into the stake building for the baptism meeting and saw a man walking down the hall toward her. He was friendly and said hi, as you'd expect, but his aura was SO dark, frightening, and evil that she instinctively shrank against the wall trying to put even more difference between her and him. She couldn't get out of that hall fast enough - she felt she was choking on the hateful, black cloud around this man, who, of course, was my father. The fact that he could, and did, influence any church "authorities" in any positive way shows how uninspired and malleable they really were.

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Posted by: Cathy ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 08:50PM

I should add that it was wrong about marrying in the temple (civil marriage, sealed later), wrong about serving multiple missions (thank gawd - the thought makes my blood run cold), wrong about callings I would have, and, obviously, wrong about living and long, productive, spiritual life within the church. It didn't suggest that I could, it said I WOULD, period. There's more, but you get the point.

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Posted by: dot ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 05:28PM

-law of adoption (dynastic sealings) changed to family line sealings

- polygamy

- moon men / quakers on the moon

-blacks seed of cain

-blood atonement


Those were the ones that I knew about first, many years ago, but was able to shelve for a long time. Then I read some Bible history books, Bart Ehrman among them, and it all made sense and the magic show curtain came down. Then it was a no holds barred - full on investigation into mormonism which came crashing down pronto. Surprisingly, the mormonism scam left me much more angry than christianity in general. Or maybe not surprisingly, I was so invested in mormonism, and my marriage being screwed by spouse's continued TBMness.

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Posted by: icedlatte ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 05:36PM

Pretty much everything Brigham Young ever said.

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Posted by: toto ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 05:44PM

Brenda Lafferty's murder (and her baby's)
Mark Hoffman's actions and the FP being duped
Blacks in the Priesthood (why it was declared they couldn't initially join)
Women without the Priesthood
Mark Twain's remark about the BoM
Celestial Kingdom for only a few of us
Temple ceremony
Being a "leader" and not feeling inspired by HF but winging it
Judging
Guilt
Stance on gays

Those were the issues while I was TBM.

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Posted by: order66 ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 05:44PM

I never understood the atonement. Why did Jesus have to suffer for my sins? Why couldn't I pay for them myself?

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Posted by: Cathy ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 06:35PM

Yes, this was a big one for me. Everyone just accepted it as the gospel truth (pun intended), but it never made sense to me. Of course, I blamed myself, as they condition you to do, because I clearly didn't understand it or appreciate it.

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Posted by: Ex-CultMember ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 06:10PM

I stacked a LOT on my shelf. Things early on that stand out in my mind was polygamy, the endowment's rip off of masonry and the Book of Mormon plagiarism of the KJV of Bible. The Tanners' book Mormonism Shadow or Reality is what finally made it come crashing down. If we could only get all Mormons to read that book...

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 07:18PM

My shelf was full, very, very full. There was too much there to list them all here. One thing I can say is that I stayed almost completely away from any outside information - it was all problems with the doctrine, scriptures, etc. Specifically the more I read the Book of Mormon the more problems I found with it.

One thing I personally cannot emphasize with is people who talk about the shock and discomfort they feel finding out the church is not true. (I can sympathize - I just can't empathize.) This is because I had been attempting to prop my full shelf up for years and years and it was just a huge relief to quit playing the mental gymnastics to try to keep believing any more.

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Posted by: Brethren,adieu ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 07:42PM

The biggest things on my shelf was the book of mormon with all the anachronisms, all the doctrine in it that was inconsistent with current church doctrine, the ridiculous story lines, its simplistic view of the world along with the idea that you will be rich if you are righteous, and if you are bad you will die in a big earthquake.
Polygamy was a close second.

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Posted by: sparkyguru ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 07:46PM

Hey now Jacob 2:18-19 was my fav scripture!

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Posted by: PapaKen ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 08:02PM

One big question:

How come Satan sticks around to "tempt" us?

He's an integral part of the Plan of Salvation. He has his free agency, since that's an eternal gift of God, right?

So if he were to just take a bazillion year cosmic vacation, it would thwart the POS.

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Posted by: hello ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 08:36PM

The "great Nephite civilization".

I wanted evidence, but was willing to wait. I was assured the evidence was forthcoming, but it never came. I waited way too long.

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Posted by: Stray Mutt ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 10:47PM

My belief was essentially provisional, starting with Genesis on through the latest conference talks and lessons. Everyone kept telling me it was true, so, okay, if they said so. I don't think I ever would have believed it on my own.

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Posted by: nickname ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 10:58PM

The Book of Abraham was the big one for me, the fact that the real translation of the facsimiles doesn't match up with what Joseph Smith said shook my faith to its core, but I somehow managed to fit that up on the shelf!

Other prominent shelf-dwelers:
-Polygamy- That was a big one, especially after learning (in a BYU class, no less!) that Emma vehemently opposed polygamy, and Joe went ahead and did it anyway! Despicable!
-Other general sexism in the church- Even as a man, it always bothered me that women are second-class citizens in Mormonism.
-Horses in the BoM- I didn't find out about all the other misplaced species of the BoM until later.
-DNA evidence- I found this one out from an anti-Mormon billboard at the Hill Cumorah Pageant! So, thanks to those guys!
-The JST- It always bothered me that God had given us his "inspired" translation of the Bible, but we hardly used it! The only times we ever used it were to "correct" places where the Bible clearly contradicted our doctrine.
-"Eternal" families could be broken up if one person messed up a little. It never seemed right to me that if I didn't quite follow all the commandments, then my parents and siblings would be punished by having me excluded from their family! (Yes, I think rather highly of myself!)

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Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: January 25, 2013 12:19AM

Almost every thing listed in every post so far.

It's enough that I will never ever consider being a mormon again. The only thing that could change that is God himself showing up and telling me I got it wrong.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2013 12:20AM by Mia.

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Posted by: nickname ( )
Date: January 25, 2013 12:29AM

Lol! Even if he did, he'd have some answering to do before I'd go back!

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