I submitted my resignation letter a week ago Sunday. It was bittersweet--quite liberating, but at the same time, my wife and five kids (as well as all of our extended family) are all still active, believing members, and I know this is hard for them. I met with the bishop before I gave him my letter. We’re still good friends, and overall he’s been very understanding of my situation. As we met, he began to tell me that, while he respects my agency to choose what I believe, if I endeavored to talk at all with my wife or children about the negative aspects of Church history, that would constitute apostasy, and they would need to hold a disciplinary council. I interrupted him and said that I would like to resign my membership, which ended that part of the discussion.

Then later that week, I got a call from our stake president saying he would like to meet with me, so I met with him two days ago. He told me he was very surprised to receive my resignation letter. He said he figured he’d be calling me soon to be a bishop or a member of the high council, not interviewing me on my way out of the Church. We talked for while, and eventually he said that he had called me in to see if he could change my mind, but that it was apparent that the arguments he had planned on using (all prophets make mistakes, etc.) would not really work with me.

He then started asking me about my interaction with other members. I still attend sacrament meeting with my wife and kids to support them. The stake president was worried that I would start preaching my ideas to other members of the Church. He said, “You know, we can still hold a disciplinary council for you.” I told him that, actually, no he couldn’t. That once I had resigned my membership, which I had done the previous Sunday, that I was no longer a member of the Church, and he had no authority over me to initiate any disciplinary action.

He backed down on that, but continued to ask me about whether I planned on sharing my views with others. I told him that I would never share my beliefs with anyone unsolicited, but that if an adult member of the Church came up to me and asked me about my beliefs, I would answer their questions. He said that that if I did that, he would ban me from attending any Church meetings and that he would make an announcement to Church members that I was an apostate and, essentially, that they should stay away from me.

He asked me if I had shared my beliefs with my kids (their ages range from 13 down to 3). I told him that I am not hiding my beliefs; that if my kids ask questions, I give them honest answers. He said that my kids were too young to hear about these things. I said I wanted them to be informed so that they could make their own decisions based on balanced information instead of the incomplete version I had grown up with. He again insisted that they were too young to be making those kinds of decisions. I asked him, “Why do we baptize kids at eight if they’re too young to make important decisions?” He seemed offended at this and changed the subject.

A couple of quotes come to mind: "If a faith will not bear to be investigated: if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak." (George Albert Smith)

"The man who cannot listen to an argument which opposes his views either has a weak position or is a weak defender of it. No opinion that cannot stand discussion or criticism is worth holding." (James E. Talmage)

My blood is boiling. What a fearful, manipulative man. And what an *ss to try to tell you that you can't share your beliefs at risk of absolute, church-induced shunning...and insist that he knows when is best for you to tell your children your truth.

Oh, but yes, send them to primary to indoctrinate them a 3. Baptize them at 8. Give them the priesthood at 12 (or start telling girls their duty is to marry and have little mormon babies asap) and send them on missions to "convert themselves" at 18-19. What this bishop is really saying is the church hasn't had enough time to brainwash them yet and turn them against their own father.

I hate that I was born in this church. That my children were. That I am having to be so covert in getting them out without losing them myself. Oh yes, such a family orient church.

Funny how censorship becomes a righteous and literally primary endeavor to shut you up on all fronts isn't it? Then there is that threat to your character in public if you open your mouth! I would give that arrogant man a little threat in reverse that if he did so you would sue the pants off him and make that public. Where is Free Agency if a father cannot speak verified truths to his children in his own home? How is it that a man loses all his rights to speak when he does not believe? Not even God can do such a thing.

Tell the public that this is the fruits of mormonism. That will shut up the SP. Little does the SP know that the second he demands you censor yourself that he threw his own religion right down the toilet!

Being an apostate in your own home is a hard row to hoe. Been there. It can be rough. Go easy. Let everyone know you love them first, don't believe second. Good luck.

P.S. Every time the Bish or an SP threatens to publically shame a member if they talk makes Mr. Holland a liar each and every time it happens. “we don’t shun”. My ass.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 12:32PM by AmIDarkNow?.

It is totally and completely inappropriate for the man to ask, or even comment on anything that goes on within your family; between you and your wife and kids.

Still being "on the inside" so-to-speak, I understand why your immediate response was to answer and not to become extremely indignant at his questions.

Ahh the force of a cult...

Active deliberate censorship.
Corrupt.

Thanks for the heads up. I will never agree to meet with the bishop or stake pres!

That was brave of you to meet with the bishop and sp. I hope it gave you closure. I'm curious how your wife felt about the way you were treated? I wish you the best! We are still waiting for our official letter from the cob and am hoping we don't have to confront the bish for this happen.

The things the bishop and stake president said didn't bother my wife. She believes strongly that this is the Lord's true church and she wants desperately for me to come back. When you have the mindset that the Church is true and it's the only way to eternal happiness, then you do everything in your power to make sure people stay in the Church. I think that if I were still a believing member (and when I believed, I REALLY believed), I would have agreed with the tactics used by the bishop and SP. If this apostate is going to cut his ties to the Church and sink himself to hell, let's do everything we can to save his family and protect other ward members from suffering the same fate.

Congratulations one finding the truth.

A hearty second to AmIDark's advice: Show your spouse you love her and put her first above all else. This will be a very scary, critical time for her and your relationship.

Go easy - she will get to where you are eventually through her own efforts....if she is able to accept the truth. If she is too TBM and scared to accept the truth, you've got a challenge.

All the facts in the world won't convince her if she isn't able to accept them. Sorry, but that's the truth.

Best of luck friend!

First of all, many congratulations on getting out. But this thread is very descriptive of why most on RfM highly suggest that you don't entertain "priesthood leaders," i.e., the bishop or SP, wanting to meet with you. However, you did do the right thing and not allow him to manipulate you.

It is a damn maddening wonder that they reserve the right to indoctrinate and manipulate your children while attempting to deny you the parental privilege of teaching them. This, sir, is proof-positive of a cult.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 01:21PM by cludgie.

Congratulations!

Just FYI your stake president's entire conversation was not part of the CHI policy for resignation. The only requirement is for your bishop to go over a few things with you.

Frankly, his whole gestapo approach and attempt to prevent you from sharing your beliefs is ridiculous. If I were you it would piss me off and make me want to share those things all the more. Does he feel his religion is such a house of glass that you can't even talk about it. How is it his business what you discuss with your family in your home?!?!?

The only power over you he has at all is that while you are a guest in a church building you have no right to use it as a forum to express your beliefs.

P.s. Did you request to have your 30 day waiting period waived?

Yes, I know I didn't need to meet with the stake president. He and I have a good relationship (although it was soured a little by our conversation), and I wanted to maintain that relationship. My wife has a stake leadership calling, and she interacts with the stake presidency regularly, so it's important for her sake that I not rustle any feathers within the stake leadership.

I did waive the 30-day waiting period, though really that's not all that important to me. Having resigned my membership, I'm already no longer a member. Name removal is just a record-keeping thing, and it's not like I'm cutting all ties with the Church since I'm still married to a TBM spouse. We still have home teachers and interaction with our kids' youth leaders and such.

We have a general authority coming to stake conference next month, and I was told the stake presidency would like me to meet with him. I think I will, because I certainly don't mind discussing my beliefs, and I'm interested to see what he has to say.

However, I think refusing to meet with a GA is more of a statement.

It's like Richard Dawkins' policy of not debating creationists. Just meeting with them lends them some credibility, and since they possess none to begin with, ironically the only credibility they have is that biologists will debate them at all.

You have an opportunity to snub a GA! By not talking to him.
"No thanks" could be a once-in-a-lifetime chance to turn your back on the emperor-with-no-clothes, in a dignified silent protest that he's...irrelevent. You don't have questions, you have answers.

Depending on your mood, meeting with a GA may be helpful as a sign to your wife that you are open to discussion. You are not in the clutches of Stan.

After the meeting, you can simply state, "Nope, Elder XXX couldn't tell me why Joseph married other men's wives and 14 year olds behind Emma's back. He was also at a loss regarding the Adam-God doctrine, why Jesus needed a multi-billion dollar mall, changes in the Temple ceremony, Mark Hoffman pay-offs, MMM, why the church hates gays and intellects, why the church teaches young women to be second class citizens and finally, when I asked him for a copy of the FY2011 Financial Report to the Members, he said he'd have to get back to me with that. However, he did bear testimony that TSM has a real thing for widows to this very day."

They did the same thing when I exited if you're interested in a little bit of my GA meeting experience here: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,761431



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2013 11:38AM by iflewover.

copostmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> We have a general authority coming to stake
> conference next month, and I was told the stake
> presidency would like me to meet with him. I
> think I will, because I certainly don't mind
> discussing my beliefs, and I'm interested to see
> what he has to say.

I'd LOVE to be offered the chance to meet with a GA. I'll tell
the SP or whoever wants to set it up, "You know my address and
phone number; call before you come by."

Or did they want you to meet with this GA on THEIR turf?

Every parent has a right to share honest information with their children. This guy has no right to know what to say to your children in your own home.

Nor does he have a right to take any disciplinary action against someone who is not a member.

Does he have a right to prevent you from visiting a ward service? Possibly.

But he has no right to require wardmembers to shun you. That's a disciplinary action. In a free society you and the mormons in this creep's church have a right to associate and talk to anyone they choose about any subject.

I'm sorry you went through this humiliation. Take care.

How is it that an "investigator" if asked, can honestly answer what their current beliefs are without fear of being banned from Sacrament meeting?

This feels like a complete wipe of Freedom of Speech AND the 11th Article of Faith.

Wow - you certainly stood your ground. Well done!

Somehow it sounds to me like the SP was trying to "bribe" you by dangling those callings (bishop or HC) in front of your nose. If so, that certainly gives a clue about how HIS mind is working...

I’m in awe of how you handled that man’s threats and manipulations. I’m also humbled because I didn’t respect my own doubts and thoughts until my mom was dead and my husband and children had refused to keep attending. I whine because my three TBM brothers and their wives and kids judge me harshly.

Attending as an ex-Mormon has got to be incredibly difficult, but I can’t help, but think that your presence will give a huge boost to all the doubts in the room. That makes you very scary to the leaders. They’d love to bully you into going away quietly like all of the other inactives.

You may want to forward your account to the Mormon legal department and your attorney if you have one. Let them have a talk with these corrupt, spiteful cult leaders. I believe that what they are doing is illegal and slanderous.

Announcing that you are an apostate in a public meeting after you have resigned is slanderous. It is meant to be threatening and to do you harm, suffer humiliation, shame and mental distress. Telling you not to teach your children what is harmful to them is outrageous.

I find it to be patronizing when a Mo tells me that I have my "agency, but..." He is lying. He does not respect your agency.

Of course I have human agency and I exercise it without their consent or permission. I don't need some dumb cultist to tell that I have my "free agency".

Cult, cult, cult.

Marshall



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2013 10:30AM by No Mo.

Suggestion:

You might want to start your meeting with the GA by asking, "I don't mean to be rude, but let me ask you a question. (Don't ask for permission to ask it) If mormonism were not true, would you want to know that?"

His answer will help you decide how to preceed with any discussions. Good luck!

I'm pretty sure publicly branding you an apostate is a violation of both the Church Handbook of Instructions, and of US case law, and he would be open to a lawsuit from you, since you are no longer of member of his little SCC.

If you sued him personally, I bet TSCC would throw him under the bus so fast it'd make his head spin. That'd be an eye opener for him!

What an officious little ***ck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2013 06:39PM by Brother Of Jerry.

I'd make sure that your children are not left alone with any of these "leaders." Demand to be present during interviews. The Boner.

What the SP did was attempted blackmail, pure and simple:

"Keep your mouth shut or I can make a lot of trouble for you."


Why so desperate SP? Things not going well in the one true church?

I watched the church put terrible pressure on my father to let us kids be baptized. Dad wanted his family to stay together in one church but TSCC had other plans. I didn't like them pressuring my dad that way and was happy to stay at the church my dad attended. Unfortunately some missionary wore him down and Dad let us be baptized. Dad forever regretted that lapse of strength.

Yeah, sure... Mormons are all about family... NOT!!!

I'm responding to what you wrote, and haven't read most of the other posts.

I'm sure this has already been said, but whatever you say to YOUR children is none of his god damn business. How dare he try to bully you about what goes on in your home. Screw him, i'd never talk to that asshole again if it were me.

I also would never allow him t talk to my children. In public or private, i'd ban him from butting my family life. He has no business sticking his nose into your family.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2016 12:13AM by madalice.

I agree with what MadAlice wrote.

You are still giving the Mormons authority over you.

Don't let the Mormons try to usurp your role as father in your own family!

By the way, they will shun you anyway, because that's what Mormons do. If you had asked, "If I keep quiet, do you promise to treat me with respect, and to accept me socially?" What do you think an honest answer would be.

My children and I left gradually, and very quietly--it was almost like we "sneaked out." I didn't say anything to anyone, and I was still treated like dirt. There's an article about how being excluded from a group hurts you physically, like a broken leg. Shunning is abuse. I'm sorry your wife and children are still trapped in the cult. Congratulations for standing up for the Truth.

There is a study (from about 25 years ago) that if one parent is not a Mormon, a child is 80% more likely to leave the Mormon church. Ride out the storm, as best you can, and keep your family in the lifeboat with you. Your children are lucky to have such a strong father.

Just make sure you secretly record the meeting and play it for your wife.

They are losing members left and right. They know their religion is a fraud, at least those with the real power, so they don't want former members telling the others to leave.

The only real power they have is intimidation and church courts. If you hold your membership as garbage, then the most precious thing they can take from you is something you'd rather throw away.

Hopefully your family will see the nasty, dark side of the church. I got my first glimpse on my mission and then I left 5 years after coming home.

Man, this is over 3 years old. Where'd you even find it? I'd love to seen an update by "copostmo."