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Posted by: Carrots Tomatoes and Radishes ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 12:28AM regards to my fiancé, she finally decided to bring it to a head and straight up ask me why I don't believe in the church (which she is under the impression that it was just because my family left and doesn't realize that I've done more of my own research than anyone in my family has done or told me of) and so she asked for specific examples of what I didn't believe and I told her little things that wouldn't necessarily "attack" her religion, but gave her little mental obstacles to jump over which in the end didn't prove anything.

And I'm really bad with immediate confrontation and need time to prepare so I set up a compromise to take at least one day every week and I'll bring something new to talk about and we can ask questions throughout the week and we are going to find our answers to each question together every week...what I didn't realize is that I just set her up for the PERFECT slow, step-by-step mental and emotional detachment from the church in order to see the truth but she said that it has to be church approved.

So I know that in order to pull this off I have to execute it just right. I really need as much help as I can get with as many possible church approved resources and items that are contradictory and are irrefutably false that I can show to her. Please help me!!! This is a once in a life time chance! :)

Edit: The main thing I'm looking for are church approved questions I can ask her that she will have to ask other church leaders for help with that will almost be guaranteed to be denied. That will probably be the best solution. Inarguable statements that are church approved and denied will definitely be the most shocking I believe.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 01:19AM by nickson.

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Posted by: No Mo ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 12:59AM

Dump her. Mormons are f^%$ed up in the head. I don't even want to date someone that has family that is Mormon.

Dump her. Life will suddenly become much easier.

Church approved? That is circular logic. If rational consideration of the absurdities of the Mormon scripture and the Mormon temple rites is not enough, it is because she has been brainwashed.


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Posted by: Carrots Tomatoes and Radishes ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 01:13AM

I haven't given her rational consideration of the absurdities yet. I haven't had the chance to do it or known what to say. That's why I'm asking now.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 01:13AM by nickson.

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Posted by: No Mo ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 07:55AM

nickson Wrote:
> I haven't given her rational consideration of the
> absurdities yet. I haven't had the chance to do it
> or known what to say. That's why I'm asking now.

Most so-call anti-Mormon authors and web sites are Mormon or exMormon. The sources they quote come directly from Mormon scripture, history, documents, Journal of Discourses, etc. Read them and just use the Mormon documents and sources. You don't have to get her to read the "anti-Mormon" literature.

Start with the BoM.

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Posted by: Surrender Dorothy ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 02:00AM

Do YOU have family that are Mormons, Marshall? Were you once a Mormon who studied your way out? Should that disqualify you from ever dating or being in a relationship again, or is it different for you because you're special and, therefore, your own rules don't apply to you?

Nickson, Sithlord and TwoJedis went through a similar process, and she ended up leaving with him rather than proving his information wrong. I hope she weighs in and gives you some ideas about what worked for her.

Has your girlfriend ever made comments about polygamy or how TSCC treats women and gays or about the racist past? If yes, those may be some good topics to approach first because there's already some cog-dis happening that you can capaitalize on to break through.

Good luck, Nickson. I hope you get the best outcome possible.

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Posted by: Carrots Tomatoes and Radishes ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 02:48AM

Yes in fact I have already mentioned polygamy on a small account and she expressed some minor mental gymnastics to show how it worked so she's already trying to work things out. I feel that it's off to a good start with my compromise, but it will be a rough road and if we can make it through I am positive it will be worth it in the end.

Thank you so much for your support :)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 02:49AM by nickson.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 04:07AM

What "mental gymnastics" did she use about "how it worked?"

A lot of the "mental gymnastics" that TBMs use to deal with
polygamy shows a real lack of the historical record.

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Posted by: Carrots Tomatoes and Radishes ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 02:24PM

She used the whole "the doctrines can change" argument, so I realized I would really have to show her the whole story.

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Posted by: No Mo ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 07:46AM

Surrender Dorothy Wrote:
> Do YOU have family that are Mormons, Marshall?
> Were you once a Mormon who studied your way out?
> Should that disqualify you from ever dating or
> being in a relationship again, or is it different
> for you because you're special and, therefore,
> your own rules don't apply to you?

Good question, Dorothy. Yes, I am special and my rules don't apply me. If I find out if a woman is Mormon, or living in Utard County, or thinks that it is okay to be Republican and live in Utard County, or have close family that are Mormon, I run. I drop them like a hot rock. It just won't work out.

Joking aside, there are other reasons why a woman might not want to date me, but one of them is not Moism. I have dated women for months or years and they never even guessed that at one time I was a Mormon missionary. There are friends, fellow employees, and neighbors in Utah that I have known for decades that don't know that I was born into the cult. I tell very few people. Past membership in the Mo cult is like having been scammed. Scammed people don't want others to know that they were that naive and gullible.

Leaving was slightly easier for me because, in the words of the cult, although I "came from good Mormon Pioneer stock" dating back to the cult Kirtland days, the branch of the family tree that I came from, hasn't endured in Moism for five generations, down to my granddaughter. I wish that my grandparents had informed be of their doubts before I spent two years in indentured servitude. I led at least one member, my father, out. My Mo mother is dead, but she kicked me out of the house at age 17 anyhow. I have an otherwise very intelligent, vocal, PhD, Mo sister living in Texas, that I consider to be an educated fool because of her refusal to admit to or study one shred of evidence that the Mo cult may be a sham. (She is the only sibling with a BYU undergraduate diploma.) I have been a part-time resident of Utah long enough to know that I don't want to date anyone that has anything to do with Moism or any other cult. There are just too many other people out there.

All of that being said, I would not blame a woman for telling me that she wouldn't date someone that had been BIC. Brainwashing is just a huge obstacle to overcome.

Regarding Sithlord or Two Jedis, I believe that either Sithlord or TwoJedis said that the first to have doubts considered splitting up over leaving the cult. I don't follow personalities very closely and I don't feel like looking it up, so I apologize if I am wrong.


Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 08:17AM by No Mo.

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Posted by: gentlestrength ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 01:02AM

Think chess not checkers.

Maybe get her to agree that telling the truth is easy, that if the story is true and something that should be easily repeated because it happened.

Get her to agree, I am sure you can find examples supporting this on the Internst, that if a person tells several versions of the same story, it is not only obviously involve purposeful fiction, but it likely did not happen because the person is improvising and struggling to remember all the different ways of telling the story.

Ask her to tell you the story of The First Vision. Hopefully she gets it right. Make sure God the Father is in the story, Satan trying to keep him from speaking, the phrase "this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, hear ye Him". (Is that right?)

Then make sure you have the source material, show her Joseph's smith first version of the story where it was only Jesus. Ask her how many versions did he tell. When did the Church start telling the First Vision story. Which version is the truthful version and why don't Mormons know there are multiple versions. Why do Moron missionaries not know that there were 15 versions of the First Vision.

Then you can share the Brigham Young through B.H. Roberts, to ETB quotes that if Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon are not true then Mormonism has no standing.

That's a lot, but one strategy that might work.

I think for women, especially younger women the Joseph polygamy, polyandry, and under-age marriages would be shocking. Again, a what point does Mormon leadership get in trouble for not teaching us this stuff in our classes, discussions, and writings. Seminary, especially seminary should be educational and Mormons should not lie to Mormons about truthful events in Mormon history.

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Posted by: Carrots Tomatoes and Radishes ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 01:16AM

Out of everything that is my MAIN hope. In fact I think I'll add that into my original post. What I am hoping for that would make the biggest difference is that I can find the right stuff and the right questions that are church approved that when she asks people in the church about will be denied. It will be the most shocking to her.

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Posted by: Homeless ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 03:28AM

Utah Lighthouse Ministry might have something you can use. Sandra Tanner likes to pull out quotes from General Conference and prior teachings of the Church. My only caution is that she comes from a "Christian" background that is just as wrong as Mormonism.

If it leads you out of Mormonism but into some other Christian religion, or Jewish religion, or Muslim religion, then it is not what I'm intending.

The following link to this book is full of the kind of quotes you are looking for:

Another good book is Quinn's work. It is well documented with quotes from Church History:

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Posted by: boiseguy ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 01:22AM

I agree dump her and run far far away.

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Posted by: mythb4meat ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 02:19AM

One way is to get a 1978 edition of "Gospel Principles" and turn to chapter 47. Near the end of the chapter, after it lists the requirements for exaltation, it states "this is how Heavenly Father became a God". Ask her if she really believes that HF became a God at some point. To Christians this is completely blasphemous. God has always been God, and was never a man. What foolishness!

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Posted by: Carrots Tomatoes and Radishes ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 02:42AM

Ah dang! That's what I really need...I need some resources...I need to buy the real history books and the Journal of Discourses and old Mormon pamphlets. Show her with their own history.

Edit: I'm sure I can find a way without them but it would make it a lot easier to cut to the chase lol.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 02:42AM by nickson.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 02:40AM

LDS Leaders LIE to the members, this is (IMHO) the best example of that:

"The Church does not hide historical facts."
Erich W.Kopischke, Europe Area President,letter to area SPs, et al, April 10,2012

Here's the TRUTH about what the LDS hides/doesn't divulge:

Finances (all)

Membership stats

# of resignations

contents of 'First Presidency Vault'

(on and on)

I believe a copy of it can be seen via Google...

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Posted by: Carol Y. ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 02:43AM

You are setting yourself up for a future where your innocent children will be indoctrinated in her cult. Get OUT of this relationship before it's too late. Do you enjoy playing with fire?? I wish I had listened to people when they warned ME. But, no, I was 22, and just knew that it would work. So, I walked into the den of snakes, and 32 years later clawed my out, nearly causing a complete emotional breakdown. The Morg got one of my four kids for life, probably. She is so messed up emotionally, just like her TBM dad. It's all so sad. Please, nickson, listen to us.

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Posted by: anagrammy ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 03:07AM

This is snake-handling when you could have bought a dog.

Why don't you ask yourself some tough questions?

Does this woman know about the internet?

If so, why has she not looked up polygamy, Joseph Smith, etc. Joseph Smith's wives, etc. on her computer?

If she says its because the Brethren have told members not to go to questionable apostate websites because they contain distortions, then why has she not looked up the quotes on important topics in the Journal of Discourses?

Why would you be interested in marrying someone who is controlled by a corporation?

Because you think you can talk her out of BRAINWASHING?

What if she were controlled by heroin? WOuld you think you could talk her out of that life or would you maybe think it is more than you could deal with.....

Lifelong brainwashing is in the same category as heroin addiction-- unless it is a family member, RUN!


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Posted by: almostThere ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 09:38AM

I partially agree and disagree with that. I was super brainwashed myself, and I never would have had a chance to see my way out of it if no one had told me the real facts. It's taken me ten years of questioning to finally see some of the light, and I'm still trying now to extricate myself from it. If no one had ever told me the truth, I would have continued forever in the brainwashing.

So, I'd say PLEASE DO follow through with your plan. Give her a chance to see the truth!

However, please be very careful. If you marry a convinced TBM, your life will be very hard. I am now in that situation, and as much as I hate to say it, and I love my wife, I would NEVER, EVER wish the kind of trouble I'm in now on anyone. The pain my wife and I have experienced is the most bitter and, so far, unsolvable thing I have ever felt. People who are telling you to run away now while you still have a chance have a real point. I'm sure it's hard to see that now, but it's true.

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Posted by: Carrots Tomatoes and Radishes ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 02:28PM

I'm just going to do my best and if I really can't get it through to her and this turns out to be an impossible situation then I'm not going to torture myself. I just want to give her the chance she deserves because although I am being told to run, I do not want her to lead that life and even if it doesn't work out with us I hope that my questions and our discussions may lead to her leaving the church in the future at least.

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Posted by: Homeless ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 03:11AM

Start with the foundation, the first vision. Both of you compare what Joseph Smith said in 1832 compared to what is in the Pearl of Great Price. THis account is in JOSEPH SMITH's own handwriting:

[T]he Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in <the> attitude of calling upon the Lord <in the 16th year of my age> a pillar of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the <Lord> opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph <my son> thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy <way> walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life <behold> the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned aside from the gospel and keep not <my> commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them according to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which <hath> been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud <clothed> in the glory of my Father..

Study the history and context of the 1826 trial hearing. Joseph Smith was playing with the occult, and the witnesses testify of it. Compare that with what he writings in the Pearl of Great Price.

Study the testimony of the three witnesses in history. Find out why they disagreed with Joseph Smith and left -- because the Book of Mormon says to have only one wife, and the D&C contradicts it.

Read David Witmer's own testimony of the voice that told him to separate from the LDS Church in 1838. It's the same voice that told him the Book of Mormon is from God.

Check out the story of James Strang (the Strangites), and check out the fact that Emma his wife chose Strang as the replacement prophet of her husband, and not Brigham Young. Study the facts. James Strang had more followers that Brigham Young before he was murdered. The LDS Church has wiped this from the history books.

Read the witnesses in the court records that testify of his dubious character. These were people who he lived around when he grew up.

Note that Nephi is the first five letters of the word Nephilim. Do a Google and find out who the Nephilim are believed to be.

All things things add up to one of two conclusions. Either the source of the revelations were not from God, or Joseph fabricated everything from the beginning. Because of the minutes of the 1826 trial, recorded in a court of law, there is evidence of supernatural powers attending Joseph Smith, but they were not from God.

Most of the debate on the court trial hearing minutes is over whether or not Joseph Smith was found guilty of a crime. But what is not focused on, which is far more important, is the testimony of supernatural powers attending his dabbling into the occult. What is described is not something from God.

Joseph Smith and James Strang were caught in the same deceptive trap.

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Posted by: Homeless ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 03:56AM

Actually, I forgot about this one. Start here. Go to the first published revelations. God says that a man should marry only one wife. It was later removed from the Doctrine and Covenants and replaced with section 132. Scroll down to 49:16...

"Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have **one** wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation" (49:16)

(Duh...why did the three witnesses leave Joseph Smith? Guess!)

The D&C has been altered in many revelations Joseph Smith received. Maybe that is what you need. What better source to compare than his supposed revelations from God?

The facts in history are incredible.

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Posted by: Carrots Tomatoes and Radishes ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 02:46PM

I found something amazing! First of all, D&C 132 is chock-full of weird stuff, but not only that! According to on the little insight before section 49, it says that the revelation of one wife was given in 1831 and then on section 132 (they must have failed to notice this) it says that he knew about the revelations since 1831! So that would imply that he straight up lied about section 49!

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 03:49AM

Read D&C section 132 with her. Then use all of the other sources about Joseph Smith's wives to show that he clearly wasn't practicing polygamy as set by god in D&C 132.

Many of the wives weren't virgins, and clearly it wasn't supposed to be for "raising a people."

You can even give her some quick math with Brigham Young to show that even the hordes of children he had with all those wives is much fewer children than if those women were with their own husbands having their own children.

Polygamy doesn't work to "raise a people" the same as pair bonding.

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Posted by: Homeless ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 04:00AM

Yes. Exactly. And don't forget the revelation given in 1831. Which revelation from God is a Mormon supposed to follow? Ask her that question:

"Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have **one** wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation" (49:16)

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 08:21AM

It's impossible to change people who are satisfied with where they are. The mormon mindset is to turn others into mormons. They seldom feel a need to look at evidence realistically and can find answers to any question which prove their point in their own minds. If they have no answer, they still "know" they're right and will say reading scripture, fasing and prayer will solve the problem

Very sorry for this emotional trauma.

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Posted by: quinlansolo ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 09:02AM

See the problem compound million times. It's even better if you guys have half dozen children.

You gotta be stupid to entertain marriage & compromise to sell your freedom?
Who does that?

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Posted by: anonymousForNow ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 09:46AM

I really love my TBM wife, but I can't tell you the suffering our differences about church has caused. Despite my real love for her, if I could go back and do it again, I wouldn't have married her. I HATE to say it, but I think both of us would have been FAR better off. It's sad, and I never could have seen it coming, but true love really may not conquer all.

Think about it- do you want to be fighting to "make it work" the rest of your life, or do you want to find someone with whom you can see eye to eye on the important things in life?

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Posted by: anagrammy ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 01:10PM

I am not against giving Mormons the truth, quite the opposite.

It is one thing to compassionately ask a person to look at the facts from a reliable source, because you care about them.

It is quite another to imagine that you can convert someone out of a religion and then everything will be fine. My youngest son tried that and here's what happened:

His childhood sweetheart was the daughter of a Mormon family --the woman was my business partner. We had children the same ages all two years apart, but of the opposite sex. Naturally they paired off when they grew up, wondering if they could make it work with their childhood pals. My youngest son went the distance and deconverted his sweetheart, then married her in a gorgeous ceremony with the white wedding dress and a fabulous reception by the sea in California.

Fast forward a year--she has a career, but is pushing for children. She is spending lavishly on presents for her gay dad and her Mormon mother and multiple siblings. He thinks she is trying to buy their acceptance. Of course that didn't work but continued to create marital problems as she paid for airplane tickets, dinners, etc., luring the to San Francisco to see how happy she was.

Fast forward another year -- she is pushing for a baby. There are baby pictures all over the refrigerator. My son is alarmed that she has this bright smile all the time, even when sad things happens. He finds pills. Then he finds crack.

Another year. She hates the neighborhood, says it's not "close" enough. She feels detached from the community, adrift. She feels like her family has forgotten about her and she is having nightmares that they are in the Celestial Kingdom all together and she is on the outside pounding on the glass (it is a bubble), and they don't see her. She says she feels invisible. She is now smoking pot. My son says she needs something to replace the ward. She misses having a ward and says she feels detached from "god's people."

Final year. She has a spiritual experience (while on drugs). God speaks to her in a vision and tells her to leave her husband, start eating more vegetables and come home to her Mormon family in Missouri.

She leaves my son, whom she says she will never stop loving. She returns to Missouri, gets a divorce, marries someone else and now has three kids.

My son tried that but he can't forget his childhood sweetheart. He is newly in sobriety having been in and out of rehab for more than a year. Even having a new partner who loves him and having two children didn't not erase the strength of his bond with the girl whose soul was owned by Mormonism.

She, on the other hand, says that her priesthood husband has made all her dreams come true and that her short marriage to my son helped her to see how true the church is and that once you have more light, you can't live in darkness. Oh--and all those facts? Those don't matter when you have faith.

I hope you are reading this because I am giving you the straight story here. You can reason with her mind and give her all the facts she needs for her to intellectually renounce the Mormon Church...BUT YOU CANNOT BREAK THE EMOTIONAL BOND.

It will be her emotional work for the rest of her life (and her success will impact you--your heart, your sex life, your children. Just wait until you have the crying that goes on over that.

"Couldn't we just let the kids go to Primary? I have such great memories of Primary, "Give, said the little stream, Give oh give, give oh give..... I just want them to have the GOOD parts of how I grew up! Is that so bad?"

You want to gamble with your mental health? Go ahead. At least you can consider yourself gambling intentionally, fully informed that you are playing with an emotional IED that can destroy your happiness and possibly even your chances for happiness as you love someone who loves a corporation more.


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Posted by: iflewover ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 01:34PM

Awesome post Anagrammy.

You hit the key: Breaking the emotional bond. It may appear impossible, but we've all done it, right?

Here's my take for the best way to break the emotional bond. Show JS in the real light of day:

1) He married teenagers. He would be a registered sex offender today guilty of statutory rape.
2) He sent men on missions and then married their wives while they were away.
3) He lied to Emma the whole time about his affairs. Would a real prophet have a reason to keep a God-directed situation secret?

Put real information in front of her (slowly) about the effects of polygamy. Todd Compton's book is a good place to start. Find her the journals of those women.

Last, if you see she is not capable of breaking those bonds eventually, then run like the wind as others have mentioned. DO NOT marry her until you are absolutely sure she has thrown off the shackles.

There are 7 BILLION people on this planet. Your odds are good for finding a mate.

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Posted by: sparkyguru ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 10:00AM

I think we need to actively help people get out, especially if they ask why.

first she needs to question the fact that the church tells the truth, try this approach.,761776

Once she questions that, then show her

note this process isn't all that easy and could take a while.

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 10:43AM

I would recommend a different approach. I would suggest going to websites with her and reading them together.

This way you don't have to debate her directly. is a pretty good place to take this kind of approach because it provides links to both sides of the issues - so you can follow them both.

I would maybe worry less about only going to church approved sources. What you are really after is the emotional "ah ha" turning point where she is honestly willing to ask "am I wrong? Is it possible the church may not be true?" As soon as you turn that corner it's all she wrote. Mamby pamby church approved answers may not be the best way to do that.

Here's my recommendations:,758683

Then if she throws up the "maybe these are lies and not true" simply counter with, well let's dig in together and research to see if they are valid or not. We can't just dismiss them or accept them automatically - so let's research it and see.

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 01:44PM

If you are determined to stick with church sources here's some:

FAIR website - they bring up lots of issues and then give ridiculous responses.

The Book of Mormon, D&C, PoGP & Bible. Just read the scriptures together and discuss the absurdities and problems. The story of Nephi and the brass plates is a great place to start.


Changes in the BoM and D&C


Journal of discourses

Links to lots of quotes from church leaders and real statistics about Utah:


Poke around on here:



Also Todd Compton is still in good standing with the church so his book In Sacred Loneliness is significant. As with anything by Grant Palmer who was an active member of the church when his books were published.

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Posted by: newcatholic ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 01:24PM

Journal of Discourses is online at BYU - you can find the Adam/God teaching there, the "we can become gods" teaching (point out to her that GBH sort of denied this teaching recently - a huge change), as well as other appalling facts. It is church approved (being written by the prophets) and is on their prized website. Hope this helps. And even though some have had horrible experiences, others have made it just fine. How dependent on her family is she? There are several things to consider, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. If you really love her, give her a chance. But, if she refuses to leave, you most certainly should start seeking another soulmate.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 01:30PM by newcatholic.

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Posted by: upsidedown ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 01:44PM

If your girl has already focused on polygamy as a weak point (sick point).

I saved this on my computer from a thread on here...can't remember who wrote it ...sorry to the author. It's good.

"UpperCut Power Punch" guy, here's a surefire way to defeat your TBM

I was going to post this here,721453 but by the time I formulated it the thread was closed.

IMO your best weapon against a TBM is to acquaint them with their own beloved

Joseph Smith Jr.-Prophet ancestral file shows 24 wives, none later than 1844 -- "But I was told all his plural wives were sealed to him after his death!"

Pedophilia -- "What? He married 14-year-old Helen when he was 37?"

Polyandry -- "GASP! Zina married Henry, then Joseph, then Brigham, then had Henry's child???"

Post-manifest sealings -- "Wait, the profit married another plural wife (Lydia) 7 YEARS after the manifesto? I thought the manifesto restored the Jacob 2 rules that polygamy is abominable, sinful, and worthy of excommunication!"

Your TBM will hide it, but when he sees the truth with his own eyes straight from his Master's own website, the cog dis will slam into him like a ton of gold plates. Take advantage of his weakened state and send him to the ground with the Fanny Alger Power Punch:

"Wait, polygamy started between 1833 and 1835, when horny old Jo went behind Emma's back and started secretly mating with their hot teenage maid???"

"Yup buddy. And here's the best part! Elijah didn't restore the Legendary Polygamist Sealing Magic of the Old Religion (aka Sealing Power) until 1836!"

"Uh, you mean they weren't married (polygamy was illegal) and they weren't even sealed? (No Sealing Power)."

"You got it. You've been worshiping a adulterer your whole life."

While he's gasping for breath on the ground, he may make one final attempt at the fight with his standard mormon programming:

"But ... I KNOW the book of mormon is true! I KNOW Jo was a profit! God commanded and Joseph obeyed!"

At this point show no mercy. Deliver the final mortal blow.

"Your god commands his profit to exploit his position of power and manipulate reluctant women, including vulnerable young teenage girls and married women, to become his plural wives even against their will. Your god commands his profit and his wives to LIE about polygamy and keep the whole thing secret, EVEN FROM THE PROFIT'S REAL WIFE. Even if he is real, your god is not worthy of my respect and worship."

But seriously, can anybody honestly accept those facts while at the same time believing the Morg is all it claims to be?

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Posted by: AmIDarkNow? ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 02:45PM

Start with this. Ask this question. "If the church is not true, would you want to know about that?" There is only one answer that holds a shred of integrity. If she gives the wrong answer then tell her she has some very serious questions to ask herself as to why that is. Then stop talking and let her process.

Don't even start this program until you do this.

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Posted by: iflewover ( )
Date: January 15, 2013 03:19PM

We always forget this step! YES, do this first by all means, otherwise you're wasting your time.

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