first ask your TBM friend if it were proven that JS deceived people if it would matter to them, if they say yes, then show the following.

Church records document that JS was married to several wives in 1842

on may 26 1844 he says this in History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 408-412

...What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one...

when you read the whole thing it is a rant against all his accusers about polygamy and lots of stuff. Technically true or not, it is clearly intended to make the audience think that there are no extra wives (of which there are) and thus is deception.

Still not sure, well lets look at the dates, the marriages were 1842 (there are earlier ones that the church doesn't recognize on its site, but there are clearly several in 1842.)

William Law (who is brought up in the rant that I pulled the quote from) well he was a first counselor, in his words JS approached his wife Jane and proposed plural marriage. William didn't like that and said so. He was excommunicated (by the council of the 50 not the 12) for saying so. This my dear TBM friend is the same William that you may have heard of hanging on JS and begging him to not practice plural marriage.

Two weeks after this on june 7 1844, William, not happy about how he has been treated and clearly seeing the lie above decides to start a newspaper called the Nauvoo expositor, it publishes one copy, an expose on JS and his polygamy among other things

Shortly after that JS as Mayor of Nauvoo orders the printing press destroyed. This is an illegal act (even though the city council thinks they had legal right to do so) and a warrant goes out for JS arrest.

JS gives himself amnesty in Navuoo so he can't be extradited, but he is still worried they will come after him. He gets on a boat to cross the river toward Monterose (Nauvoo's planned sister city)

At the Halfway point, his friends convince him to return and face the charges (IMO they figured he would be exonerated) this is when JS makes the statement "I go like a lamb to the slaughter" he is worried for sure, because once in carthage he sends orders to the Nauvoo legion to come rescue him.

simplest conclusion:
JS was a con man and knew the gig was up. Tried to keep it all together but it was falling apart quickly, thus the deception.

Another conclusion:
The parts of this that you my dear TBM haven't heard before, you might think them false, be my guest and prove me other wise. Fair warning though this will likely lead to a loss of your testimony.

yet another conclusion:
God told JS to lie and deceive the people around him, why? If the God of mormonism is so interested in the truth, why this deception?




If your TBM friends here this and come up with another conclusion, please let me know.


(I had one TBM friend claim after reading the bit about 'finding only one wife' that maybe only Emma was sitting there in the audience so it was technically true, a good response to that is technically Bill Clinton didn't have sex with Monica Lewinsky either, this shorts out the rationalization because most TBMs are die hard repubs too and are disgusted in Bill for his dalliance)

Edit to fix the timeline for when the legion orders were sent.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 12:07AM by sparkyguru.

I just read this and now I think the Morg does create miracles, it is a miracle that I believed this for so long!!!

some days I want to hit myself on the forehead and say I was so stupid!

Warning this is a bit of a paradigm smasher, use with caution, if your TBM friend has a strong cog diss gene they may end up pretty mad at you.

Edit:
the reason I think it works so well is that it ties the true history in with the faith promoting things that they have heard,

William hanging on the prophet exclaiming his love.

polygamy that is pretty well known

and the famous "I go like a lamb to the slaughter" phrase.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 06:39PM by sparkyguru.

On August 29, 1842 Joseph called a special conference in Nauvoo. He had begun to find himself under public scrutiny, primary due to the exposure of John Bennett, that he was breaking the Illinois state law by practicing polygamy. In response he put together a newspaper that was to be distributed nationwide that contained affidavits and certificates in a huge effort to convince the world that he was not a polygamist. Joseph spearheaded this massive effort to deny that he was involved in polygamous relationships, and after his speech at this conference, 380 elders volunteered to go on missions, leaving their homes and families behind, to spread the newspaper abroad and give their own testimonies that Joseph was not a polygamist.

On September 1, 1842, Joseph repeated the 1835 relevation on marriage by publishing the following in the "Times and Seasons,” of which he was editor: "Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again." This was repeated again on October 1st, with some extra emphasis "we know of no other rule or system of marriage than the one published in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants." Note that what is known today as D&C 132 had not yet been received. On October 15th he furthered the campaign by writing "And again: I command thee, that thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife."

After this dramatic effort, which some have referred to as a crusade, Joseph stopped taking new wives for several months. However, he couldn’t keep the saints from gossiping among themselves and learning the truth from those who were actually practicing polygamy. On February 21st, 1843, he responded to the gossip to a group who were working on building the temple: "There is a great noise in the city, and many are saying there cannot be so much smoke without some fire. Well, be it so. If the stories about Joe Smith are true, then the stories of John C. Bennett are true about the ladies of Nauvoo; and he says that the Ladies' Relief Society are all organized of those who are to be the wives of Joe Smith. Ladies, you know whether this is true or not. It is no use living among hogs without a snout. This biting and devouring each other I cannot endure. Away with it. For God's sake, stop it.” (Joseph Smith, HC, 1843)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 06:29PM by kimball.

RE D&C 132

didn't he tell Hyrum that he had that one in his heart for years?

I remember it and seems like it was in a typical church document. makes me wonder about the dates of that


also if anyone has the JS teaching priesthood manual out there, how much of the detail above is in it?

Thanks. I'm keeping this to tell my son (and inlaws) when the opportunity comes up.

How about you look at the Lectures on Faith, where he gives the Trinity-like view of the Godhead, saying that God is a spirit, Jesus is part of God but made of flesh and bone, and the Holy Ghost is both their minds.

Then in the First Vision (last version) he says that they are disctinct personages and that both are flesh and bone.

Hmmm...

Good points.

I disagree with you on this though:
"JS was a con man and knew the gig was up. Tried to keep it all together but it was falling apart quickly, thus the deception."

JS had been successful as a con man for 20 years and had wiggled out of many things. I'm fairly confident he anticipated he was going to wiggle out of this one too.

yeah you may be right, I think he faltered a bit though and that is why he headed across the river. its actions like that that show an intent to run away that are hidden from members thus giving them the wrong impression all under the auspices of "don't undermine testimony"

I also wonder about what cowdery and rigdon were thinking (I'm more and more convinced they were in on it). I tend to the idea that they were seeing this thing collapse and might have been the ones to stop the legion from going to aid him. The surprise from left field was good old briggy. that must have nutted up those boys in a big way.

Con men are notoriously ballsy, the gain your confidence by exuding theirs. often times they tell themselves they are doing it for the good of their marks too, nothing like personal self justification to do the most evil things...

I'm also in the camp of he began to believe his own con to a point. Could have been telling himself, maybe I am really a prophet... how else would all these people follow me? (and there is some proof of mental illness in his progeny)

these are just my speculations though. But the history of deception is really very clear if you can just help people open their eyes to see it.

Is it the greatest con the world has ever seen? naahh you got Muhammad with a lot more followers (and people that willing to blow themselves up too!) there are several more too. You might say it is the biggest american con though.

I'm not super strong with my history and dates, however:

1) I believe Cowdery was long gone - that he had left the church several years before and didn't live in Illinois.

2) Smith and Rigdon had, had a major falling out - as I understand it it was largely because Smith's request to marry Rigdon's daughter didn't go over very well. I believe Ridgon was living in Kirkland, OH at the time?

Fairly recently before this Smith's two main men were William Law & John Bennett (they were the 1st presidency). Both of them and recently been excommunicated / left the church and both on very, very bad terms. I believe Rigdon was the 1st councilor at the time, but on bad terms with Smith and far away.

An interesting thing about Rigdon is during the succession crisis he wanted to be considered a steward, not a prophet.

Yes, Cowdery fled Rigdon's thinly-veiled Danite threats back in 1838. Rigdon, meanwhile, was in Pittsburgh by 1844 for the reasons bc mentioned (i.e. Joseph's attempt on Nancy's virtue and subsequent assault on her reputation).

I assume that Rigdon lobbied for "steward" on account of Joseph Smith having designated his son as his eventual successor. I believe that Brigham Young even endorsed this view, but wanted the twelve to serve in that capacity, but never relinquished leadership because Joseph Smith III was unwilling to embrace plural marriage.

agghh now you my curiosity gene going and I have research more ! back in a while on this topic :/

What were the dates of the rant?

May 26, 1844

Wow that's PERFECT!!! I found the journal entries right on the lds site about Joseph Smith boasting and all sorts of things and even found entries about Joseph participating in masonic rituals! There's no way it could be said that it is lies by any Mormon because it is right on the site! :D Thank you!!! :D

what LDS site are you referring to?

https://history.lds.org/?lang=eng

and then I found a lot of journal entries in the church history catalog

http://churchhistorycatalog.lds.org/primo_library/libweb/action/search.do?dscnt=1&dstmp=1360489112933&vid=ALL_PUBLIC&fromLogin=true


http://churchhistorylibrary.lds.org/primo_library/libweb/custom/CHL/pages/resources-journal.jsp

It's well hidden. It's no wonder people can't find it, yet they say it's out in the open. I found the article where he rants in here and it's a church approved site because it is a part of the church site.

(and it doesn't load properly sometimes. It's obvious that they intentionally try to make it very difficult to access)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2013 04:44AM by nickson.

His wives:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/M18D-5C8

History of the Church, vol. 6, pg. 411 (May 1844)
"What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one."
http://books.google.com/books?id=pGi-iiz6juYC&pg=PA404&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false


Emma Smith said that "secret things . . . cost Joseph and Hyrum their lives" on Aug 15, 1844 according to William Clayton, Smith's trusted friend and clerk. Clayton wrote down most of Smith's revelations and prophecies and is quoted frequently by Mormons. Emma denied Smith's polygamy and left the LDS church when he died.


The following excerpt is from a letter Joseph Smith wrote when he wanted to arrange a liaison with Newel K. Whitney's daughter Sarah Ann, whom Smith had secretly "married." It reveals Smith's cloak-and-dagger approach to his extramarital affairs:

Joseph Smith, Handwritten Letter, accepted by LDS church as authentic:

"... the only thing to be careful of; is to find out when Emma comes then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safty. ... Only be careful to escape observation, as much as possible, I know it is a heroick undertakeing; but so much the greater friendship, and the more Joy, when I see you I will tell you all my plans, I cannot write them on paper, burn this letter as soon as you read it; keep all locked up in your breasts, my life depends upon it. ... I close my letter, I think Emma wont come tonight if she dont, dont fail to come to night, I subscribe myself your most obedient, and affectionate, companion, and friend. Joseph Smith."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2013 10:08AM by Heresy.

heresy said:

>Emma Smith said that "secret things . . . cost Joseph and Hyrum
>their lives" on Aug 15, 1844 according to William Clayton,
>Smith's trusted friend and clerk. Clayton wrote down most of
>Smith's revelations and prophecies and is quoted frequently by
>Mormons. Emma denied Smith's polygamy and left the LDS church
>when he died.


this is a new piece for me, would like to read the rest of the context, can you point me to it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2013 10:17AM by sparkyguru.

On more than one occasion the OT God instructed his prophets to lie. So that must have been the case with JS and polygamy.

+

This is from an old post:

_______________________________________________________________


In Nauvoo the problem was that Joseph Smith created TWO CHURCHES not ONE and these two churches completely CONTRADICTED each other. This is one of the most salient proofs that Smith was not following any divine direction.

One "secret church" was hiding inside the other, this Inner Church believed in and practiced polygamy -- supposedly by God's direct commandment. This is documented by the Mormon Church itself (LDS genealogy library, LDS depositions collected in the 1800's etc.).

The second "public church" was being told that God DIDN'T CONDONE polygamy and that polygamy WASN'T being practiced. This too is documented by the Mormon church itself (Nauvoo City Council records, Smith's own statements,local Church Newspapers, and even the early editions of the D&C and church pamphlets distributed in England)!

Supposedly, by direct revelation, God was saying totally contradictory things at the same time -- that is impossible for an honest and consistent God.

The publisher of the “Nauvoo Expositor” brought this impossibility to light. Smith and the City Leaders destroyed his business property without due legal process (caused a riot). Smith went to jail for this and other reasons and was killed there.

The church eventually divided, one group (Utah Mormons) followed Smith's polygamy church, the other (RLDS) followed Emma's (Smith's wife) non-polygamy assertions -- and BOTH churches could justify their beliefs due to Smith's contradictory words!

Was this the evidence of a "house of order"? Was this the work of a just and consistent God? No, this was obviously hypocrisy; It was exactly what Christ described as the evidence of a False Prophet! Christ said to judge False Prophets by their fruits (lies and hypocrisy) and that such dead roots can't create a living tree.

As a result, to this very day, the Mormon Church avoids the fact that polygamy was practiced in Nauvoo because it requires admitting that Smith clearly lied.

Thus,in a TV interview, President Gordon B. Hinckley claimed that polygamy started “when the saints moved west” – this was an outright (but necessary) lie because the only choice that's left is this:


Either Smith lied -- or God lied!


What's the choice?

+

God can make you do anything in Mormon world and its ok. 10 mins into the BoM and god makes nephi kill a guy.

once you accept that, well god told me to lie is ok too isn't much of a stretch.

in my experience having open conversations of this type with a TBM involve them putting a lot of weight on the shelf. before too long they will change the topic or bail on the situation because the cog diss gets too hard to handle.

D&C section 132, dated 12 July 1843, right there in their own
scriptures, refers to the ones that "have been given" to JS:

"52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that
have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and
pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they
were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God."

You don't have to go to familysearch or historical sources, it's
right there in their own scriptures.


But where Joseph Smith rose (sunk?) to true "scumbag-hood" was
not just how he lied, but how he treated those who told the
truth. His modus operandi in each case was for him and his
inner circle to destroy the reputation of the person telling
the truth. This happened with Sarah Pratt, Martha Brotherton,
Nancy Rigdon, and William Law (whom the adulterer, Joseph
Smith, falsely called an "adulterer"). And then there's the
"Nauvoo Expositor." The newspaper whose only "sin" was to
expose Joseph's lies. The truth was too dangerous for Joseph
Smith to have around so he didn't charge them will libel and
have it settled in a court of law, he ordered his followers to
break into their printing office and destroy their printing
press. This is NOT someone who embraced "truth."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2013 02:28PM by baura.