Someone I know from here started watching it but stopped, and ironically, an LDS friend on FB made a post gushing about how good it was. She said it was about "truths, doubts, and the gospel". My bet would be it's about not bothering your pretty little head with problems that arise with church doctrine. Just pray, read your scriptures, go to church, and stay off the internet and you'll be just fine!

I'm not willing to sacrifice myself to find out first hand.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 10:56AM by twojedis.

What a coincidence. I'm watching it as we speak.

EDIT: I'll let you know how it goes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 11:07AM by doubtisavirtue.

I'll be watching for doubtisavirtue's report.

http://www.lds.org/broadcasts/watch/ces-devotionals/2013/01?lang=eng

Someone transcribed a portion, starting at 33:00

Uchtdorf:
" For those who already embrace the truth his primary strategy is to spread the seeds of doubt. For example he[The Devil] has caused many members of the church to stumble when they discover information about the church that seems to contradict what they had learned previously. If you experience such a moment remember that in this age of information there are many who create doubt about anything and everything at anytime and everyplace. You will find even those who still claim that they have evidence that the earth is flat. That the moon is a hologram. It looks like it a little bit. And that certain movie stars are really aliens from another planet. And it is always good to keep in mind just because something is printed on paper, appears on the internet, is frequently repeated or has a powerful group of followers doesn't make it true. Sometimes untrue claims or information are presented in such a way that they appear quite credible; however, when you are confronted with information that is in conflict with the revealed word of God remember that the blind men in the parable of the elephant would never be able to accurately describe the full truth. We simply don't know all things. We can't see everything. What may seem contradictory now may be perfectly understandable as we search for and receive more trustworthy information. Because we see through a glass darkly we have to trust the Lord who sees all things clearly. "

My comment:

Uchtdorf knows the church is false. He's purposely throwing a blanket over anyone finding it out.

Do today's mormons believe in a real devil? Is that part of the temple indoctrination?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 11:19AM by shakinthedust.

Today's Mormons definitely believe in Satan. He's depicted in the temple endowment, has a strong presence in the scriptures, is given lots of publicity in conference talks and other addresses (just like the Uchtdorf talk), and people will even sometimes proclaim that they "have a testimony of Satan." Also, he's still used in the Primary manuals to scare the children, which I always thought was horrible.

It's wonderful to not believe in Satan anymore.

Not only that, but in the temple ceremony, we have to put on aprons. Guess who the only person in the movie wearing an apron is? Right, Satan. And, he's the one that tells us (Adam and Eve) to put them on, then we obey.

Absolutely. Also, ever hear about another Christian church that "seals" souls in ceremony? Nope. Who else does teach about it? Occultists. Who tells you to take a secret name and not disclose it? Occultists. The handshakes? Occultists. The prayer circles? Occultists. The list goes on and on and on...

There is the outer church. (Obedient followers who present the pretty frosting image of goodness to the world.) Then there is the inner church. They are not the same.

The devil will get you; the moon is a hologram; the earth is flat. Aren't they all the same kind of nutty beliefs?

Now wait:

Was this his argument not to believe in Mormonism?

Exactly--just because a large group of people (14 million, supposedly) believe something doesn't make it true. And just because FARMS repeats something or shouts it from the internet rooftops doesn't make it any more true.

I love Uchtdorf's quote because you could say the SAME thing about the LDS church.

I don't generally like to speculate about "which general authorities don't believe", but assuming this transcript is correct, it does come across as an intentional attempt to deter thoughtful inquiry. It ignores the real issues of contradictory Church history by trivializing it with UFO and Flat earth nuts. He also implies that people should be doubtful of rational inquiry. So, I can't say exactly what Uchtdorff's thoughts or opinions are...but if someone stuck a gun to my head and forced me to guess, based on this comment I'd wager that he doesn't actually believe.

I'm very certain Uchtdorf knows it is false. And I agree, this statement shows his intent is to keep members from looking behind the curtain.

"...has a powerful group of followers doesn't make it true."

IE the church itself...

this is gonna be my new quote to TBMs

"...And it is always good to keep in mind just because something is printed on paper, appears on the internet, is frequently repeated or has a powerful group of followers doesn't make it true. Sometimes untrue claims or information are presented in such a way that they appear quite credible"

- Elder Uchtdorf

this is a well know psychological manipulation technique, if you want to engender doubt, you list facts that are clearly false ie

"You will find even those who still claim that they have evidence that the earth is flat. That the moon is a hologram. It looks like it a little bit. And that certain movie stars are really aliens from another planet."

then you list the thing you want them to doubt. The person's mind is predisposed to doubt it.


It works the other way too, list clearly true things, like "it is a beautiful day, the sun is shinning and feels so go on my skin... then the statement you want believed.

these jedi mind tricks work well on the weak minded...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 01:25PM by sparkyguru.

Well, OBVIOUSLY, the moon is not a hologram. For crying out loud; everybody knows the moon is inhabited by people 6' tall who dress like Quakers.

Hologram, indeed. Nobody would believe such nonsense...

I just hate that he takes facts like "the earth is round" and uses them as evidence that feelings about god/church are facts too.

Manipulation of ideas to achieve his proof that the church is a fact.

It could be Jim Jones saying, "There are those who would try to trick you into believing I am not a prophet seer and revelator...they may even tell you that the earth is flat, be not afraid my children. We will overcome this trickery by satan to decieve your minds...don't let your mind dwell in dark places that do not promote your faith in the one true prophet and jebuus christ."

Now please make sure that you send me 10% of your paycheck. I need to buy more koolaid for the kids.

I hate that he compares/likens believing the church is false to believing the world is flat, the moon is a hologram, and other absurd beliefs. Oh, it's just those crazy conspiracy theorists...nothing to see here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 01:28PM by order66.

I couldn't help but think about the scientists centuries ago who were called doubters and heretics for trying to show the Earth was round, it orbited around the sun, etc.

You do mean the Consumer Electronics Show, right? In Las Vegas?

If it is, glad I didn't go!

The surprising thing is he is saying a LOT of completely reasonable things about truth. I've heard more I agree with than that I object to.

For instance he pointed out that belief and truth are not the same thing. Simply believing something doesn't make it true, no matter how strongly you believe it. He stated that we're often too quick to declare something untrue because it contradicts our prior experience, or because to accept we were wrong would mean having to change. And that we're often too quick to think that because someone disagrees with us that they must be misinformed, mentally disabled or willfully intending to deceive, and that this tendency can blind us to learning from people who might genuinely be trying to help improve our understanding.

The only problem is he doesn't apply it consistently. He does an about-face when God comes up. God knows everything, and he has absolute truth, so ultimately we have to inquire of him to know the truth.

He does briefly bring up the obvious question of how you can know that truth is different than any other "truth" people may espouse, but sort of shoots it down.

And he also says to blindly follow the leadership is unwise.

All in all, though I had to stop watching the video because I had to get to class, his talk seems to be doing a lot more to invite questioning than to squash it.

Though I still get the sense he's still trying to "sneak in" the opposite message, if only a little bit. The text is "question", but the subtext seems to be leaning slightly in the other direction. Or maybe I WANT to think that since I'm not a fan of the GAs to begin with.

All in all, surprisingly not as bad as I thought it would be.

I've always liked Uchtdorf, and still do. I rarely have a problem with the things he says, except for the problem that he's keeping people in mormonism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 12:51PM by kimball.

From what I can tell, he's not really sure what he wants to say. In reality, the church just wishes the internet, and the use of reason would go away. I have met three other couples in our stake and the next one over who left the church at the same time we did. They have to be running scared. They are losing the intelligent, thinking, educated, stalwart members, and they can't stop it.

Two logical fallacies are employed here: poisoning the well and guilt by association. Any half-brained highschool debating club member should be able to spot these. The fact that Uchtdorf employs them, demonstrates nothing but contempt for the intellectual capacities of his audience. And rightly so, if they buy it.

rt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Two logical fallacies are employed here: poisoning
> the well and guilt by association. Any
> half-brained highschool debating club member
> should be able to spot these. The fact that
> Uchtdorf employs them, demonstrates nothing but
> contempt for the intellectual capacities of his
> audience. And rightly so, if they buy it.


rt, you'd probably get a kick out of this video dissecting the logical fallacies of one talk by Dallin Oaks. It's insightful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBXxJJfX3Nk

Wow! That's brilliant! I especially found the part about identifying oneself by one's beliefs intriguing. That's why it's so painful to leave Mormonism. It's been ingrained in our identity.

Sweet! Lol! Uctdorf listens to David Icke. ;D And he puts those who present FACTS about LDS church history up with Icke's (and others') crazy theories, as opposed to admitting that all the cRaZy, FrEAkY Mormon stuff comes not from exmormons but from the church itself!

Hey, Uctdorf, according to YOUR cult there are men living on the sun and the moon. I could go on and on with the CrAZy...
But anyone reading your blather, unless completely cultified, will see it for what it is. Blather. Meant to confuse and overcome knowledge, truth, reason and self-thought.

P.S. Icke also teaches that the Mormon Hiearchy is right up there with those movie stars (more so, rather with world political and economic leaders) in the alien bloodlines, dear sir. And your church is bought and paid for by the Rockefellers. Have you been down under the SL temple playing with the reptilians again?

P.S.S. Know how I found Icke? Researching the Mormons. When one weird leads you to another weird...and you want away from weird... Just sayin'.

The proof that they are in trouble is that he says to ignore any
information that challenges your testimony. He doesn't say to
"test all things and hold fast to that which is true;" he
doesn't say to check into it and investigate, he just says to
ignore it and go on believing anyway. He doesn't even say
something like "be sure to look at both sides of the story,"
or "get a balanced view," he just says to ignore it.

That's the con-man's approach to being exposed.

You will notice that this approach works only for believers.
It's a way for them to (A) go on believing and (B) marginalize
anyone who has solid facts that contradict your belief.

Imagine saying this kind of thing to investigators: "Mr.
Brown, there is a lot of information out there that totally
contradicts everything we are saying to you, but don't look at
both sides of the story, only listen to us."

In fact, that's what GBH said to the guy from "The New Yorker"
when he was interviewed:

"As I was leaving, Hinckley cautioned me against speaking with
the Church’s many critics, who, he said, are not a part of the
'life of the religion.' He said, 'I’m a living part of it.'"

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2002/01/21/020121fa_FACT1?currentPage=all



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 12:57PM by baura.

Uchtdorf said:

"And it is always good to keep in mind just because something is printed on paper, appears on the internet, is frequently repeated or has a powerful group of followers doesn't make it true. Sometimes untrue claims or information are presented in such a way that they appear quite credible."

I agree wholeheartedly with this..... he was talking about the falseness of TSCC wasn't he?!

Uchtdorf makes arguments that indict the Church as much as anything. What a bunch of BS.


"And it is always good to keep in mind just because something is printed on paper, appears on the internet, is frequently repeated or has a powerful group of followers doesn't make it true."

Right. Just cuz yer parents, friends and LDS leaders say something or cuz it's in an LDS Church manual or scriptures doesn't make it true.


"Sometimes untrue claims or information are presented in such a way that they appear quite credible; however, when you are confronted with information that is in conflict with the revealed word of God remember that the blind men in the parable of the elephant would never be able to accurately describe the full truth."

Or in other words "Others can claim to be right when they are not, but the LDS Church has the revealed word of God. No wrongness here." Yeah, right. How about actually addressing the issues rather dismissing them without some sort of review.



"We simply don't know all things. We can't see everything. What may seem contradictory now may be perfectly understandable as we search for and receive more trustworthy information. Because we see through a glass darkly we have to trust the Lord who sees all things clearly."

Wait, I thought the promise of continuing revelation and Mormonism was that these people do know things. How is it that the "we simply don't know" is OK when it serves their needs but they keep telling the flock they're prophets and to follow them at the same time? You can't have it both ways. You can't simply dismiss these things you say are questionable unless you provide more proof of your 'truths' than just a feeling.

If a GA stood up and recited the SLC yellow pages, you' have some gushing TBM's who would go onto FB and say how good it was.

You know, Uchtdorf was my favorite when I was still in. I felt he gave some good talks, that weren't the usual drivel. It is very unfortunate that he had to go and say this. However, he's gotta move up the chain of command somehow, and I'm sure this helps get him in good.
I can't imagine hearing this talk and not saying to myself (even when I was active) "Wow, why is he trying so hard to convince me of this?" I mean really, even when I was active, I just think this would be a red flag to me. There is no way I would be brainwashed enough to just nod my head and go along with all that.