ok so now that we are out, one common request from parents has been "don't try to convince me or your siblings that we are wrong"

they really have a don't preach to me attitude, it's like they are afraid they might get a little antimormon on them and be all dirty. It is interesting because the church sends out gobs of missionaries to get their 'Mormon' all over everybody else. I have been thinking of pointing that out, along with the fact that they were allowed to preach to me pretty exclusively for a couple of decades and so I ought not be 'muzzled' when it comes to church topics.

What do you think? Should we ex-believers just fade away or should we be more active in preaching the 'truth' we have found? ;D

I don't do it because I hate having anyone preach at me, but I think turnabout is fine and don't mind that exmos dish it out in kind.

We've heard many stories here that confirm that their great fear is that others will also find out the truth - and leave. Bishops and SPs tell those who question that they can believe what they want to believe, and everything will be OK, but if these people dare share their doubts with others (even with family members), then they will face 'church discipline.'

We have the 'right' and obligation to share with others the '"truth and light" that we've found, especially with our immediate and extended family. Some wait for others to ask, and some will initiate conversations/questions. I side with the latter. LDS Corp sends out tens of thousands of missionaries, and they tell all their members to constantly look for and take advantage of every opportunity to recruit for them. They even had/have a program that said 'every member a missionary'.

One should never be intimidated or shy in trying to spread thruth and light among the oppressed in the world. It's the ethical, humane thing to do.

If they are minors, you shouldn't be undercutting your parents' teaching, even if you disagree. It would just cause problems at home if they started rebelling against the church while still living under the parents' roof.

Just be the best person you can be. If your siblings see that you are responsible, happy, and successful without the church, then maybe they won't be afraid to question.

If they are adults, you should be able to talk freely. ONLY if they WANT to talk about the church with you, then talk about it. But you don't have a "responsibility" to deconvert anyone. The idea of being responsible to change other people is a Mormonish idea. If you feel obligated to share, ASK them if they want to know.

Even when I was TBM, I felt my wife was naive about the church. I'm from Utah. She is a mixed one parent is a pioneer-heritage mormon and other parent is a convert, and she never lived in Utah and didn't get in to BYU when she applied.

The attitude of non-Utah mormons about Utah mormons is another story...but a holier-than-thou story in itself.

She was always rude to telemarketers and door-to-door solicitors. I had a natural empathy for them because I had been on a mission. I had done both phone and door-to-door "marketing" for the church. Plus, I just have a nicer temperament and she'd never admit that she and her whole family are just insenstive people regardless of mormonism.

The biggest huh to me was that she was offended whenever Jehovah's Witnesses came to the door.
How can a mormon be offended by someone doing what THEY do?
It's a natural blind spot.
Mormons don't see the nose on their own face, which you can only see by looking in the proverbial mirror...which they won't do.
Mormonism conditions you to be defensive, and ironically, easily offended.
She has even used the phrase "why are you attacking me", in response to her OWN questions. She has trained me well, to pander to and patronize her. Otherwise she gets mad and sulks.
Mormons have problems but they won't take criticism.
I think it's simply because, naturally, false dogma such as theirs CAN'T withstand criticism...so their natural defense is to be...defensive.
But of course it's utterly HYPOCRITICAL because THEY expect everyone ELSE to take criticism from THEM.

I'd just tell them that it works both ways. If they don't want you preaching anything at them, then they're not allowed to bring up any church stuff around you. You had to listen to it for years, and now you're done listening to it.

Like.

I think we should speak up, but because of the topic, it will easily offend, so you have to be sneaky, point out a logical fallacy here and there. identify hypocrisy when you see it. It does require patience and kindness though.

I have found that with this approach it can lead to an open discussion with some of my TBM friends. Even a healthy debate where people don't just take offense at everything you utter.

plus if you are sensitive to the other person and are willing to back off when you see they are uncomfortable (resist the need to 'go in for the kill') then you have a chance of leaving them with something to ponder.

The fact is the truth is out there for them to find. Showing people the truth isn't the issue. The issue is helping them realize it is ok to look for it.

+1000!!!!

thank you for the video phil puts the concept I am espousing it excellent relief

I think it would depend... do they leave you alone?

My dad keeps sending me his testimony. THis Christmas I even got a "I found this in my archives and thought you would want a copy..."

It was an 8 page typed (make me gag because of my lemming attitude and embarrassing overly transparent naïveness) talk I wrote for church over 10 years ago. He can't just have a conversation with me, he has to always remind me how disappointed he is that I am not who I once was. This, to me, is offensive. I have kept my mouth shut, my views to myself, and respected his views... until now. i have to say something, now it is a matter of self respect. I cannot allow his horrible behavior to go unchallenged. (PS- this wasn't the first act, it was just the last straw).

His religion, is poisoning our relationship.

This quote came to mind:

"The argument with faith is the foundation and origin of all arguments, because it is the beginning—but not the end—of all arguments about philosophy, science, history, and human nature. It is also the beginning—but by no means the end—of all disputes about the good life and the just city. Religious faith is, precisely because we are still-evolving creatures, ineradicable. It will never die out, or at least not until we get over our fear of death, and of the dark, and of the unknown, and of each other. For this reason, I would not prohibit it even if I thought I could. Very generous of me, you may say. But will the religious grant me the same indulgence?

I ask because there is a real and serious difference between me and my religious friends, and the real and serious friends are sufficiently honest to admit it.

I would be quite content to go to their children's bar mitzvahs, to marvel at their Gothic cathedrals, to "respect" their belief that the Koran was dictated, though exclusively in Arabic, to an illiterate merchant, or to interest myself in Wicca and Hindu and Jain consolations. And as it happens, I will continue to do this without insisting on the polite reciprocal condition—which is that they in turn leave me alone. But this, religion is ultimately incapable of doing. As I write these words, and as you read them, people of faith are in their different ways planning your and my destruction, and the destruction of all the hard-won human attainments that I have touched upon. Religion poisons everything." _ Christopher Hitchens, from God is Not Great- How religion poisons everything



I love this part especially because it speaks such a HIGH truth;

"I ask because there is a real and serious difference between me and my religious friends, and the real and serious friends are sufficiently honest to admit it."

The question to me recently has been, if a subject is simply off limits... does that person really love me, do they respect me, do I respect them, and do I want to converse with them?

An ideal and TRUE friendship to me is one in which we can open, honest, and even argue and debate. Unfortunately, this eliminates most of my old friends and family from my life. However, I hold to this requirement in my friends, just as I do for myself. If I want people around me who challenge me and are honest, I can't surround myself with people who "set up parameters" on our interactions.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2013 01:07PM by intjsegry.

A lot of them don't leave us alone, because they are taught to reactivate and try to lovebomb etc. people back to church. so as a result, I think they are due for some education/enlightenment

From my experience if someone isn't interested in what you have to say then they will just put up walls and dig in deeper in their beliefs.

So it's less about what is "right" and more about what is effective in my mind - and preaching to people who don't want to hear it is rarely effective.

Of course if someone is truly interested in what you have to say I see no reason not to share with them what you understand.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2013 02:21PM by bc.

that is exactly my point. pushing it on them wont work. better to leave little hints and clues of stuff that they didn't know along the way.

But doesn't Mormonism rear its ugly head during the most seemingly benign conversation? Tangentially? My routine conversations with Mormon friends is like walking thru a minefield.