I view them as at best, condescending and delusional, and at worst complicit in fraud.

I hate the so called Apostles and Prophets, the most.

They know damn well, that they do not speak to God, or for him, or represent him, any more then I do.

They know that they have no special witnesses, no visions, no spiritual powers, nothing.

I know it, and I know that members deep in their thick heads, know it also.

These people are just a bunch of suits, running a corporation. That's it. The whole thing just gets me depressed and angry.

It's always easy to turn frustration into hate, but who is hurt by it? Only you.

The "Brethren" are no more than you or I. They are living the life they were intended to.

While we, as exmembers, can see what obviously appears to be the truth, there are still millions that find solace in being able to let go of determining their lives and choose the social ambiance of Mormonism.

To each their own. When the moment comes for them, as it has for us, and they reach out for help, BE THERE FOR THEM. Letting the negative guide your future isn't freedom, but an exchange from one master to another.

Keep SMILING. You know the truth and it has set you free.

Bobthetaxman, that was very beautiful. There is so much power in determining my own future without holding on to resentment and anger.

Bobthetaxman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> there are still millions
> that find solace in being able to let go of
> determining their lives and choose the social
> ambiance of Mormonism.

Somehow it seems that saying they are choosing the ambiance of mormonism is like saying that a mark chooses the "retirement" they get investing with Madoff. Hm.

While I agree that having anger only hurts the one with anger, the frustration we feel serves to motivate us to act toward helping spread the word, uncover more fallacious claims and shine a light on current scandals. I know that if I were completely complacent in my feelings toward the church, I wouldn't be involved in any of RfM, mormonthink or uncovering financial chicaneries.

I too have a hard time believing they don't know what they are doing. They know very well they are not what they are claimed to be--by others. This is telling. The fact that they let others assume that they talk to God, assume they sit and have grape juice with Jesus in the top chamber at the temple. They make no corrections when the membership at large tearily says they commune with Jehovah, that they are God's mouthpiece.

They just smile as sanctimoniously as they can and allow it all.

You never hear them saying it anymore like J.S. and B.Y. Now they knew how to prophesy and revelate. At least they had guts.

But nowadays no one wants to be the next one to have their prophecies and revelations overturned by the next one down the line.

It is very hard to imagine any of them are sincere. At the very least they are not honest with themselves unless they are sitting in the quorum thinking they are the only ones not getting any inspiration and the rest are.

They must be spoken out against. They must be stood up to. They must not win.

I have no respect for them and they anger me.

Good thread, good discussions, with important points.

There are people/leaders who know the doctrines and history of he Mormon church. With intent they deceive. In turn these lies are spread by mothers and fathers, missionaries, and friends to others with a genuine heart.

Not unlike someone that shares a deadly virus knowingly without the consent of the target or prey, who in turn actively spreads the virus through assertive actions, but without the knowledge that the virus is deadly.

Flawed I'm sure, but fraud is forgivable, but this is quite a bit more than fraud. The Mormon church needs to go away, or at least back into its' little Utah, Idaho, and Arizona box.

We can direct our anger towards helping others avoid the scam of Mormonism or assist Mormons in their exit from the corporation.

There are many cons in the world. Mormonism is just one of them. Religious cons have the longest recorded history. I feel for the poor folks at the Kingdom Hall I pass by when I go fishing on my favorite river. I see street preachers frequently in Chattanooga when I take a walk at lunch. I receive numerous emails from stock newletter writers who supposedly know more than the average guy. If they are so smart, why do they write newsletters and not just follow their own advice?

I believe as ex-Mormons we are more keen on uncovering what is the motivation of someone who is trying to convince of us of an idea for our time or money. Be thankful we are out and not be consumed with anger. It is hard not to be angry at those who conned us. We have all learned a painful lesson.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2013 11:27AM by Eric K.

+ 1,000,000,000 Jesus Smith, Blueorchid, Eric K.

Anger, hate, and other "negative" emotions (NE's) are not inherently bad as those who regurgitate trite, banal, self-help platitudes would have us believe. "Negative" emotions can act as an early-warning signal that something is wrong. Once we root out the cause, the NE's can serve as fuel to drive change.

What Eric K. and Jesus Smith have created are two such examples. MADD, Amber Alerts, Megan's Law, etc., are a few examples of parents taking their hate, anger, and grief over tragedies such as the loss of a child to affect change. Other examples are more personal and on a smaller scale but are also important. Repairing the damage done to us individually and to our family relationships are valuable causes and an investment that sees even bigger payoffs when future generations never experience the harm caused by LDS, Inc.

While many platitude-ists mean well, it seems that some who advice to la-la-la the NE's away have not dealt with their own hate, anger, and grief. They are quick with a verbal-smackdown and finger-wagging lecture for those who are brave enough to admit their own "negative" emotions.

I agree with blueorchid's assessment of TheBrethren. They are NOT just like the rest of us, unless you are a lying, manipulative hypocrite who thinks nothing of hurting and exploiting others for your own gain.

Best wishes to you anonski21. You do not need to be ashamed of or allow others to shame you for feeling "negative" emotions about the brethren or their deceptive "church."

++100

TSCC leadership does not provide full disclosure. They have made it clear they don't think they have any obligation to do so.

Even if they did, many members would still choose to remain members but they should base that decision on a full airing of the information. Not allowing them the choice will full disclosure is arrogant and manipulative.

into directing people to the truth when you have the opportunity. For me, when I have been wronged, I have to take action, and have no trouble at all expressing how I feel about the cult.

Yep.

anonski21 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> These people are just a bunch of suits, running a
> corporation. That's it. The whole thing just
> gets me depressed and angry.

Me to. I think that I can go down two road with this anger of mine. I can accept Mormonism with all its warts as something for others or I can actively choose not to accept it. I don't make the minds up of my family, but I can let them know I think it is a false religion that they are following. And I do.

The truth is too subjective to set me free. It points out the fact that something (Mormonism) is accepted that is something people have conjured up in ignorance and perpetuated for close to 200 years. I feel the same about any belief system which.

A) claims to have some foundational basis in real data, history and verifiable information

And

B) uses this "reality" to mix in metaphysical beliefs that are harmful lies. (the Priesthood blessing of health taking too far)

I especially dislike the "hope" of good thing in reality that are based upon wishes and only them.

Serving a mission can have benefits, but being something to feel distraught over and have serious pain and anguish about it something flat out harmful sold as a panacea for anxiety of crossing into adulthood.

Look at all the young LDS women flocking to "serve missions." Truly disgusting the amount of control this corporation has.

It can get me steamed up too, especially When I think about the stern, condescending, controlling, authoritarian crap delivered to me from bishops, "leaders" and family. They had such a superior tone and attitude, all coming from a position of complete delusional BS. On a more positive note, I get less angry these days, and find humor in it more often than not, kind of like when I see the pope in a dress.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2013 09:12AM by ladell.

I used to look up to those men. When I finally looked behind the curtain and saw them for the corporate hacks they truly are I lost all respect for them. At first I was ambivalent about my disgust for them but it has grown into a little more anger recently.
Whenever I see the idolatrus hero woship that so many of the membership of the church heap upon them - and the brethern allowing it happen - I can't help but get a little angry.

Stand in line like the rest of us.

I never hated the General Authorities. I just started ignoring them.

We had (have?) a special needs child (adult now). When a GA begins making "general" pronouncements about what we ought to be doing as a family, I realized that we had to disregard their preaching for my own sanity. There was no way in heaven or earth we could do the standard LDS family program. Our son would not serve a mission no matter how much pressure or rewards we applied as parents.

I stopped attending General Conference sessions because whatever they might say didn't apply to me and my circumstances. Mormons only solution to any challenge is more Mormonism. We couldn't be any more intense.

Even though I was a member for the entire administration of TSM I have never heard him speak as the President of the Church. I tried Mormonism and it wasn't working in my home. I don't need their advice to apply Mormon doctrines ever more intently.

If the definition of insanity is repeating the same procedures and expecting a different result, what is repeating the same procedures with greater enforcement?

I view them as any board of directors of a corporation. Concerned only about the bottom line, and certainly not my personal well-being.

Holding a grudge against someone is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.

Being disgusted with people is avoiding their poison and not being too distraught over their own poison killing them.

Besides if these men were more cheerful who knows how long they would live?

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/42577652/ns/today-today_health/t/cheery-people-die-sooner-more-longevity-secrets/#.UPBRaNXl9Q0

When you are the victim of betrayal, I think hate is a natural reaction. I think it serves an important purpose. What is the correct response to deception, treachery, and treason? BUT, hate should be a temporary tool to transition you to healthy actions.

Hopefully it becomes righteous anger and eventually it transitions to dignified motivation that brings introspection as well as critical evaluation of all that is around you.

the Change they've adopted (adapted?) in their roles is apparent:

Let's Go Shopping!

I can't imagine DOMcKay (my reference for a kindly prophet/president) saying such a phrase.

Empty suits do not make gentlemen.
Fake smiles express no kindness.
Cheesy stories aren't wisdom.
And, power is no substitute for class and competence



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2013 12:32PM by guynoirprivateeye.

I agree w/ everything you indicated, except the 5th one down on the list. I don't believe the members understand or know that,indeed, these men are NOT men of god - they do truly believe they are. This is from year of birth to adulthood indoctrination. As a TBM, I firmly believed that the profit walked and talked with God, and I have a very thick head - but deep down inside, I did not know otherwise.

I find it difficult to get past looking at the big 15 and hating them for what they are doing while my husband and children are still being conned and look at me as bringing a cancer to the family, as my son said. I sit in another room while general conference is on and my husband is listening to these men he considers to be god's mouthpiece believing their every word. My husband pays full tithing to a corporation not a church. I kiss my husband goodbye every Sunday morning as he goes to church. One of my favorite things to do was to sit by my husband in church, which didn't happen all the time because of his callings. The church claims my husband's loyalty, he believes what they say over what I have shown him. After 37 years of marriage, of knowing the type of person I am, he chooses to trust what the big 15 have told him, to trust his feelings about the church and the testimony he has gained above all else. Yeah, I could be done with the hateful, hurtful feelings if I didn't have to watch my family suckered into the scam on a daily basis.

While channeling feelings into positive actions is always a good thing, and I am in no way disagreeing with those assertions that many here have made, feeling angry/hateful is perfectly valid too.

People can advise you on how to change behavior, or even how to change the way you think about something... but they can't tell you how to feel.

Go ahead and feel pissed off / angry / depressed. It's merited, and you aren't bad for having those feelings. Sometimes a good hating can be just the mental venting a person needs.
Just don't stew in that place for too long

In resipsaloquitur's heartbreaking thread about grief, this phrase about his wife's untimely death struck me so hard I couldn't breathe,

"The cult held a Church rally with her body in front. We endured several hours of isn't The Church great? and you should all join! Then we put her in the ground. I used my powers to dedicate the grave. I cast a spell that whoever visited there would want to join The Church. But I really don't know if anyone understood my incantation, because the gutteral, primal voice came back."

What should be your feelings toward 15 men who did that?
What should your feelings be toward 15 men who were 'inspired' to write a manual for bishop's and stake president's wherein a person's tragic loss is turned into a Plan of Salvation revival meeting while the unbearable wounding sorrow of the spouse is ignored?

They have reduced unfathomable despair to the classification of a tool for sales?

You feel what you feel. You rise above it for your own sake.
Hopefully you can let go of the hate and heal.

It is up to the Big 15 to become worthy of acceptance and forgiveness.

and hate in order to heal.

I thought they had a direct line to God and were the people they appear to be in public/conference, so in my innocence, I wrote to BKP and asked him for answers where my gay boyfriend was concerned. I had been suicidal daily for over a year--had lost hope in life. And what was his answer? To tell me I had no right to approach with him with my questions. That he was too important and too busy for someone as worthless as I was. He berated me in every possible way. My sister and BIL just happened to be there when I got the letter or I may have ended it all. Everyone who read the letter was shocked. I finally burned it. That was a real eye-opener to me--that, for one, they had no contact with God and that the worth of a soul to the leadership is zilch. I still believed, though was questioning, for another 8 or so years. We also wrote to Monson later when our marriage was falling apart. He had his assistant tell us he wished us well.

I believe I've gotten over my anger and hate until I start thinking about it again. Though my dad was still a believer--though never was much of a TBM--he told me just months before he died that if he had that letter, he'd publish it in the tribune and take out a full page ad.

I noticed two "Apostles" in the last conference inferred some members had problems with historical or political issues that could put the "Lord's Annointed" in a negative position. Of course their counsel "repent" as anything negative is a lie or just plain wrong. Therefore, I wrote an email to each (through lds.org) and asked them about Joseph's poligamy and lieing about it. One did respond. The one answer I got was to just restate what they said in their talk and not even try to answer or refer me to where I could get the LDS spiel. When I do come out on my lack of testimony I will ask: why "Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ" will not address my questions? Why should I ask and waste any Bishop's or SP's time with any questions when the top leaders who really should know won't answer? Why would I even consider taking a calling or paying anything to a church that cannot/will not answer these type of questions? AMEN!

“IT IS WRONG TO CRITICIZE THE LEADERS OF THE CHURCH EVEN IF THE CRITICISM IS TRUE.”

---Mormon Apostle Dallin Oaks, PBS documentary “The Mormons” 2007

I think I got this from Anagrammy's list. Your example just verifies it.

They are only worried about their own appearance at any cost--to you!

Remember what Gordy Hinckley said when asked: Are you a prophet?

His answer: I have been sustained as such.

It was a yes or no question, and Hinckley couldn't handle it without weaseling. Feel free to hate him and his ilk. They don't have much regard for you.

When I was at BYU-I, Gordy came to do a devotional.
Im my Humanities class Bro Stevenson was trying to explain the difference between Greek pride and our own.

He said, "If you asked a Greek soldier how many men he could slay in battle, and he said 50, he wouldn't be bragging or prideful, but would just be attempting to answer accurately based on his ability. It would be akin to you going up to President Hinkley at today's devotional and saying 'Are you really a prophet?' or 'Do you really talk directly to God?' He would say 'yes' to both, not out of pride, but because it's the truth."

I'd be curious to see what that professor would say while watching the Larry King interview.

While TBMs can justify away their God being silent because he hates sign seekers, there is no justification for weaseling out of a simple yes/no question when your entire job supposedly is to witness of christ as a prophet. The simple answer was that apparently Gordy's conscience wasn't fully gone, and he still didn't like lying... so he just weaseled and deceived instead.

"Letting the negative guide your future isn't freedom, but an exchange from one master to another."

Freakin' awesome.

D

Since I now take them as generally no authority over me, I seldom think of them at all.

These men have made a list of rules for members to follow.

If you meet with heartache and sorrow they will use it to manipulate and rob you. They never miss the opportunity to use a crisis to their advantage.

They will rob you of your right to deal with your heartbreak. They will rob you of money, and they will steal your family. They hope you don't come to enough to catch on to what they're doing.

If you or a family member get sick, you're still expected to bend to their will. If you don't, you will be persecuted. You are still expected to do your calling, pay your tithing, clean the church, and support the leadership in any way they see fit.

If you complain about how poorly you're being treated, you will be punished. Telling other members about the abuse will be met with persecution, and even torment. They will use your family against you to silence you. They will threaten you with your eternal salvation.

You are not allowed to tell your friends and family any negative information you know about the church. If you do, you will be met with an army of people who will do their level best to separate you from your family. They have no problem emotionally destroying your children, or elderly parents. They know exactly what they're doing. They will project the image of being righteous while simultaneously they are dishing out misery to you and your family.

To add insult to injury, they will try to get all of the elderly members in your family to sign their estates over to the church. They will then insist on using their funerals as missionary teaching sessions. They will not have a problem taking over the funeral and cutting you out of any decisions.

I know all of this because i've experienced all of it. Some of it i've seen over and over. They have rules, and you'd better follow them or you and your family will pay the price one way or the other. They use your tender heart, love for family, and your good will to make you bend to their demands. They are evil.

I hated BKP even when I was a TBM teenager. His preaching against music made me think a lot and made me question many things when it came to mormonism.

Nothing wrong with feeling anger. The 15 men throw so much guilt around, they break up families, they keep people away from their families to do church work, and they are perpetrating a fraud. Being angry over unwanted visits is what is getting me to prepare my resignation letter. Without that anger I would probably keep procrastinating.