What was the final approximate total cost of the City Creek mall/complex?

In terms of opportunity? Too much...

I've heard between 1.5 and 3 billion. I have also heard comparisons between this figure and the relative expenditure directly to humanitarian aid for the last 25 years by the Church.

In any case, it is too much. I'm sure someone will chime in with a good source...

I wish... someone in SLC would go to the (assessor's office?) govt & get the 'Real Numbers'; they should be relatively easy
to find, publish here.

side note: I keep hearing that in (polygamy city) property doesn't go on the tax roles until 'completed' whatever that means; therefore, Lots of tar-paper houses, not (legally?) 'complete'.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2013 12:58PM by guynoirprivateeye.

The Assessor cannot give out any confidential information on commercial property, such as the actual costs if the church gave that to them. I doubt very much that the church disclosed anything. Utah is a non-disclosure state, so the Assessor has to use other means to come up with a value. There were some articles in the Trib about the Assessor's value on City Creek being below $1B. If true, then the fair market value was much less than the actual cost, meaning the church overspent. Big surprise.

how (can?) do ppl appeal their property valuations?

Here (WA) it's mostly by comparisons...
that's a matter of public records! It's the way assessors make their valuations...


That's WIERD!

My DH and I, living in Utah, Tooele county to be exact, just built a new house, the property tax was for a house worth $380,000.00 dollars which is WAY more than what we paid to build our house. We went to the county asseser guy and he said, and I quote "there is no way you built that house for under $400,000.00!" THe guy was an idiot, it was very easy to build our 4000 square foot/basement included in this, 3 bedroom home for under that amount! Anyway, DH had a relator do comparables for houses that were roughly the same size in our area and the county agreed that our property taxes were too high and they were lowered so it can be done even in a non-disclosure state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Creek_Center

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705398244/15B-City-Creek-Center-on-schedule-for-March-22-opening.html

So the numbers are $5 billion for the total revitalization project.

$1.5 billion for City Creek - which includes the Condos.

I have read comments elsewhere that these numbers were the budgeted amounts but that the actual numbers ended up being higher - but I don't know of/remember anything concrete.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2013 01:50PM by bc.

The City Creek Center is part of an estimated $5 billion[2] sustainable design project to revitalize downtown Salt Lake City.[3] The City Creek Center project itself has been estimated to cost around $1.5 billion

source: Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Creek_Center

The Devon Energy Tower skyscrapper recently built in downtown Oklahoma City only cost $750M.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devon_Energy_Tower_(Oklahoma_City)

The Mall of America Phase II expansion will be $2.1 billion for a 5.2 million square foot extension. City Creek Center was $1.5 billion for 700,000 square feet. That's $404/sq.ft. for Mall of America Phase II vs. $2,143/sq.ft. for City Creek Center.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mall_of_america#Phase_II_expansion



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2013 06:20PM by Makurosu.

If you read the article about the City Creek project, you'll find that the approximate $1.5 billion cost - of which Taubman had a chunk - was for the development of 23 acres in downtown Salt Lake, including the condos, apartments, office building, underground parking garage, and a full-service grocery store, as well as the retail mall. Your comparison of square footage with the Mall of America expansion is meaningless. Apples to bowling balls.

And the $5 billion dollar figure that erroneously gets bandied about refers to an entire downtown redevelopment project of which City Creek is only a part. There are also other investors in this undertaking as well, and includes about a half a dozen other builing projects.

http://www.downtownrising.com/index.php/the-vision-introduction

I guess the much vaunted RfM conceit of being so "scientific" and "analytical" and "factual" doesn't include comparing actual similar items for comparison/contrast purposes.

Yep, I guess you're right. Your testimony is secure.

Up yours, clown.

I resigned over 20 years ago, before there even was an internet. Being an exmo does not mean posting any g*ddamned silly horsesh*t that pops into your head. Actually, I would think that former mormons have an obligation to to keep to factual information and careful analysis, and not pull nonsense like your post out of their ass.

Making sh*t up to establish a point is the purview of Mormons, or didn't you learn that?

Calm down. Where did I make anything up? These are all figures I got from the DeseretNews and Wikipedia. If you say the $1.5 billion figure includes 23 acres of condo development, a retractable roof and other features crucial for the work of the Lord, then I'll accept your sources. It's not like this is any kind of sacred cow for me. (EDIT: Make that "condos, apartments, office building, underground parking garage, and a full-service grocery store, as well as the retail mall.")

I would appreciate your not flying off the handle in the process, if that's not too much to ask.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2013 08:42PM by Makurosu.

Mak, I agree - where is Ernst posting his "facts"? Seems like guesses to me and usually swearing and unnecessary hostility come from active Mormons. You can always claim you resigned ...

No, I think he's right if the DeseretNews article that bc posted is true:

"Fewer than 60 days remain until the scheduled March 22 grand opening of City Creek Center, a $1.5 billion downtown project that is expected to revitalize Salt Lake City's central business district.

"Upon completion, City Creek will feature approximately 700,000 square feet of shopping and dining space, along with 536 new condominiums or apartments. Among the unique features of the 23-acre development are a 30,000-square-foot fully retractable glass roof, a sky bridge over Main Street and a re-creation of City Creek, the snow-fed stream that once meandered through the city."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705398244/15B-City-Creek-Center-on-schedule-for-March-22-opening.html

But even if that $1.5 billion figure also includes 536 condos, it's still pretty outrageous unless those condos are going for $1.5-2 million each. That's assuming the Church isn't lying about the $1.5 billion figure. Is there something else I'm missing?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2013 04:51PM by Makurosu.

It's not so much Ernst's being right it's the abrasive approach that is the problem - it's not that hard to correct information without being a total dick about it.

Sigh...

The 2-3 billion for the mall and condos come from KSL and Deseret News. The Mormon church does not open its books. If you have official figures we will be glad to use them. We know 5 billion was for the entire development, It is very clear on our home page.

Ernst Young: The shocking part is not the price per sq ft but it is the amount spent on a development project. Why does God/jesus need to be a real estate developer? If jesus came to earth today would he announce his plans for development of a mall? Would he want people to go buy crap at department stores?

Taubman didn't put any money into the development of City Creek Mall. However, they did acquire the operatonal rights to the Mall from the Church for $270M.

Where did you get the 1.5B for City Creek Project(including condos). There was $5B for the total revitalization project, most of which is the City Creek Development, what else was revitalzed?

Ernst if your come here as an expert, at least provide get some facts straight and provide detail.

What else besides the City Creek development makes up the $5B? please itemize the various costs. OTherwise, your just as uninformed as the rest of all the people you trashed.

I was talking to my daughter yesterday about this. She had been over to take a look (she used to live there and was back for a visit) and she told me that she was told that a great deal of the cost was in rotating an existing building, diverting the city creek again, heating the concrete, the movable roof, etc.

Are the contractors TBMs? Follow the money!

One of the costs was the need to replan the entire development, after an existing tenant refused to relocate. After years of discussion (threats), the tenant told Corp to build around them, which they have now done.

Which tenant is that?

That is a good question, shakinthedust.

It does not follow that a "tenant" would have the new mall build around them, since both the old Crossroads and ZCMI malls were totally demolished for the new construction. Also, as the real estate arm of the morg owned the old malls property, all the corp had to do was cancel the lease, and the "tenant" - which by definition is only a leaseholder - would have to pull up stakes and leave.

Crathes, who indeed is this mystery tenant with a magical lease?

They are not a Tenant but a property holder who refused to move, first for crossroads mall then for city creek.

How does the church rank amongst other church's in terms of profit bearing businesses? Anyone know?

Look for the only store on South Temple that is still standing. Hint - a high end clothing store with 60+ years left on its unbreakable lease.

What is with all the codes? What is the store?

I'm surprised that the Church did just arson the Utah Wollen Mills. It was in the way of God's work! :)

We many never know the actual development cost that the church plowed into the City Creek Mall porton of the City Creek development.

That being said, I think there has been enough informaton/leaks that the mall portion of the overall development was around 1.5B.

What we do know is that the Church sold the operating rights to the Mall to Taubman for $270M.(source: Taubman 10k filings). So development costs over $270M, and the churh has lost money.

Based on the size location and tenant mix of this Mall, 270M sounds like a fair market value. I personally think Taubman will still lose money on this based on this price. I have several clients (national tenant's) who have locations at City Creek, and so far their sales are far below projections. Their rent is also based on a percentage of sales, these tenants also have very favorable termination rights.

The so-called church would publish their financials if they had nothing to hide. Where they are forced by law, there are often questionalble dealings. Such as in Canada, all excess tithing (ie above expenses) going to BYU, tbus effectively laundering the money. Or when they collected over a million for the Tsunami and didn't pay any of it out. Or high wages paid to officials. Or huge payments to mission presidents. I would bet that they used City Creek to overpay LDS contractors that are friends to the top 15 conmen in the church.

Agreed. Mormons brag like crazy and one of the things people hate most about them is their arrogance. If they were really doing good with all that money, they'd be the first one to broadcast it like Moroni atop a temple.