I want the LDS Church to stay the way it is so it can die. It's not the "TRUE" church. It never was and it never will be. If it changes, I won't go back because it still won't have any power to save.

I agree. I don't understand when people say if the church would change, they could stay members. To me, it's rotten from the core and there is no way to make it right. What are the good aspects people want to save? I honestly have no idea what they could be.

You can add sprinkles and wrap it up with a pretty bow. But it is still a piece of poop.

LOL. Big time.

"a piece of poop"

Nice alliteration - but consider:

"a dollop of dung"

:)

That's exactly what I've been saying.

As much as I admire Anointed One, and others such as Jesus Smith, there is no way that I want this church to change.

Let it just keep trucking towards the cliff of extinction--stay out of the way--and watch as it breaks to pieces on the valley floor of reality.

And I agree with you guys, no matter how much they try to change it, it's still a lie and has no power one way or another.

In fact, I wish they would return to their more fanatical teachings and practices.

It's not my fault that I was born into this fucking cult. I owe it no niceties.

Well said all. Can't think of anything to add.

That is right. For those of you born into it, it is not your fault. Just be happy you figured it out and will not let them control the rest of your life. I commend you.

And it has. Correlation and the increased centralization of control, increased demands on members and increased aloofness of the GAs, and more have sucked the vitality out of the church. It's more oppressive than the church I left for ruining my mental health. The church has gone from beating you with a switch to beating you with a 2x4.

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Clinging to control and demanding evermore from its subjects.

Doesn't usually work out for most dictators/authoritarian govts either. It will take time, but LDS Corp is on it's way out as a church.

Unfortunately, it has the means to survive a long time as a business entity.

It started as a money-grubbing scheme and it will go out the same way.

Stray Mutt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
The church has gone from
> beating you with a switch to beating you with a
> 2x4.

Well said. It's much different from 40 years ago. I think that's because the members from that time onward have raised their children to be slaves to TSCC. Thank God I didn't raise mine that way.

I recall a lot more freedom or "agency" in the 50s.

Anyone else see it that way?

Absolutely. Correlation and the ever-increasing demand for obedience has certainly ratched up since the '70's.

When you start to lose control of something, your first impulse is squeeze tighter. It worked through the '90's, but after the tipping point was reached when the Internet reached our doorsteps, the grip turned deadly.

Above William Law stated "As much as I admire Anointed One, and others such as Jesus Smith, there is no way that I want this church to change."

Just to make my position clear, I can't speak for Jesus Smith though I count him a very valued friend, I am not asking the church to change so that I feel I can then be an active member.

The church is false - fact, period. I have asked them to show me where I am wrong and justify their ludicrous claims. They have failed to do that and, instead, choose to rant against me as exemplified by Elder Holland. Worse still, in my mind, is the way they have poisoned my family (children and grandchildren) into believing their lies. They claim to be the one and only true church, yet they are founded upon demonstrable lies and their existence is promoted by perpetuating old and new lies.

I believe they will change whenever faced with legal and other external challenges (e.g. polygamy, racism, same sex attraction etc.). They will do whatever is required to survive.

I want them to admit their false claims and release TBMs from bondage so that they can expand their world view and be part of solving world challenges instead of being a roadblock to social improvement.

They won't voluntarily admit their lies, of course, as that could be the end. They pay tens of millions of dollars each year in legal and P.R. fees as well as advertising. They should be able to work out a way of transitioning into an organization that does good in the world.

So what am I saying? I am not one of those like John Dehlin who believes it just requires the church to change in certain ways and it can survive as a church and everyone can be happy. Its claims are totally false and it should admit that fact. It should disband as a church and become an organization for human good. But how does it do that? Sell it's temples and meetinghouses and change its missionary program into a humanitarian reach out. Would be great but it won't happen. That would need honesty and integrity which they continually demonstrate they lack.

I would love to be proven wrong, but I won't hold my breath,

+1

Well said.

The only reason to belong to the LDS church is that it's true.

Since it is NOT true, there is no reason to belong.

Exactly.

Thanks for the perspective, Anointed One. I agree. I also agree that they will not ever admit to any wrong doing, and I'm just ready to watch them founder at this point.

I feel badly about what they have done to your family. I nearly did not come out to my wife because I thought I would lose her and the children, but I did and she came to her senses over time. We were able to lead all of our children out. I hope it can be the same for you one day.

By the way, I didn't mean to equate you with John Dehlin if it seemed that way. John just makes my head spin.

They are one of the most powerful anti gay forces in the US. We need them to change fast.

The ONLY reason they have changed over the years is to hide all the inconvenient facts.

JUST LIKE A CAT COVERING UP IT'S POOP...

"I'm not sure that I just laid that turd".

It can't change and remain Mormon. Think of it; you get rid of two or three things and the church will become another Protestant offshoot and thus instantly forgettable. America is a land full of religions, and there are a number which are probably more fulfilling with a quarter of the work involved.

IMO, it's already changed enough that it is but a shadows of what it was about 15 years ago, even. So many of the tenants of faith that my BFFs were taught are now "I don't know that we teach that" or even outright denied.

It does change, but it does so very slowly. I am quite sure that Joe and Brighy would not recognize the modern church as the one they founded and set in motion. I even see changes from when I was growing up on the 80s & 90s. I'm sure some of our more senior members could confirm, things are very different than they once were, and I don't mean policy wise. How many key doctrines have just...disappeared? "I don't know that we teach that." Indeed...

Forgot to add, Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays!

This is one of the most important concepts ever.

You may choose to join another church and experience some true community with actual respect for the members, but you could also process some new ideas.

Original sin is necessary for churches to have something to offer. Telling them "joy" can be experienced isn't enough to make someone part with their money.

Churches tell you that without them, you will go to hell. You need them to conduct rituals for and around you, to remove curses and replace them with a new "state" for your soul.

Sacraments are symbols of an inward change.

What if you could get that inward change without the sacraments. What if you could just feel closer to Jesus by standing in the church building and looking at the candles.

That would not be enough to part you from your money, so they add fear. Fear of something that will or won't happen in the afterlife.

Original sin is nonsense, a guilt trip and it makes no sense if you believe in an all-powerful God. You can be spiritual and attend church and believe in Jesus without loading yourself up with guilt for your sins.

Original sin was invented to make sure that everyone had sin so they needed baptism. So they needed the church.

I just want to tell you that I have experienced more spirituality after leaving all churches. I freed myself from my audience of fellow church-goers to impress. I can do my own charity from my own heart without advertising it or taking credit for it, or listing myself as someone who "does a lot of good in the world." I can pray/meditate/sing and no one knows or cares. It is very freeing.

My community is where I live. My apartment complex. These are my neighbors and the people I want to bond with. It's great to get together with people and not have to have them believe what you believe. To hear new ideas is refreshing. I think this is what Jesus said about loving your neighbor. He literally meant the guy next door who you would not necessarily pick out of a crowd to be a friend.

Anagrammy

So true Ana.

But once you drink from the fear cup, everything else tastes wrong. Especially when you grow up on that flavor.

Took me a long time (and the Internet) to realize it was poison.

Organized religion is the ultimate long con IMO. Requires real action (and money) here and now for unseen rewards later.

The idea certainly isn't new, but the execution by LDS Corp has been exceptional to this point.

Many thanks to Eric K. for his execution of this invaluable counterbalance!

I sometimes think of the whole Spencer Kimball decree about oral sex..

I mean, that didnt' last long and married couples were 'permitted' to go back to their 69's.. so you can say that there is a finite, quantifiable 'improvement' the church made when they went back to allowing oral sex.

No doubt some married couples lives 'improved' because they could go back to having a little bit of freedom in the bedroom.

But is this to be viewed as some kind of thing to be celebrated?

What does it say about an organization when the members that make it up think that there needs to be some kind of approval in the FIRST PLACE. THAT IS the problem..

All of the TSCC's 'progress' can measured this way.

The problem (The way I see it) is the church woudln't exist unless there is a core group of members that ultimately take their queues from a group of old guys in SLC

participation and attendance in the church is at the very least implicit support that the GA's own you.

Also, when the LDS changes, it's for the benefit of the GAs..if they choose to modify the church is for THEIR benefit, not the membership...

even if there is some kind of trickle down affect.. (that also makes people's lives less miserable).. I have a hard time thinking this should be viewed as any sign of real progress.

Please proceed, Mr. Monson.

Laughing myself silly. Thanks!

I DO want it to change!

I want it to go BACK to its pure God-revealed roots.

I want to see President Monson announce, "Thus saith the lord ..." and ramble off exactly the kind of stuff that Joseph Smith always spouted.

I want everyone to return to the "Journal of discourses" days.

I want the old Temple Rites restored!

I want the church to defend its right to practice polygamy.

I want someone to defend Modern Blood Atonement in court.


The worst thing that could ever happen to Mormonism is for church leaders to start practicing the REAL MORMONISM that God Himself originally intended Mormonism to be.

The church has always been its own worst enemy.

Exactly

I don't like how their hatred and utter cluelessness about gays causes us so much pain, especially with gay youth still under their nutty TBM parent's roofs, however I don't want gay people to be accepted in the CULT. We are far better off outside. Everyone is.