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Posted by: hellcat ( )
Date: December 13, 2012 04:48PM

We are talking about Joseph smith and his many wives I asked her to look up on Lds.org to learn more about it and sure enough not a shred of info. She called the missionary's... Nothing. Finally she googles it and poof all this info. But then she doesn't trust anything off the Internet. Any way can anyone point me to some original documents that I could use to convince her he married other men's wives? The original document Joseph's love letter to bro and sis Whitney's daughter Would be awesome cuz she read that off Mormon think and said if she knew that letter was true it would change everything she felt about good ol joe.

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: December 13, 2012 04:57PM

Here is a document written by FAIR that acknowledges that Joseph Smith married 8 other men's wives:

http://www.mormonprobe.com/kaitch-a-tale-of-two-marriage-systems.pdf

Here is an ensign article that acknowledges Joseph Smith's polygamy:
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1978/12/the-newel-k-whitney-family?lang=eng

and this:
http://mormon.org/faq/practice-of-polygamy/

If you are really serious you could purchase In Sacred Loneliness by Todd Compton - who is an active Mormon when he wrote the book. [Edit: I originally incorrectly stated that Compton was drummed out of the church but was correctly below that he is still in good standing.]

For more:
http://mormonprobe.com/index.php?topic=Polygamy



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2012 06:34PM by bc.

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Posted by: hellcat ( )
Date: December 13, 2012 05:01PM

Thanks a ton I've been thinking about getting the book in Sacred loneliness for while I think it's time now

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: December 13, 2012 05:07PM

Unfortunately it's not cheap - I think I paid in the range of $40...

I assume you have seen wivesofjosephsmith.org?

I'm going to be lazy and refer you to my homepage which has links to the 4 stories on there that I think are the most concerning:

http://www.mormonprobe.com/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2012 05:08PM by bc.

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Posted by: almostThere ( )
Date: January 17, 2013 01:04PM

I found In Sacred Loneliness in the public Library, but I'm in Salt Lake. It's worth looking at yours.

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: December 13, 2012 05:03PM

Also here are some sites you can peruse to see if you can find anything: (I don't know if they have what you are looking for or not but I do know they have lots of scans).

http://user.xmission.com/~research/about/

http://josephsmithpapers.org/

http://journalofdiscourses.com/
for reference: http://www.mrm.org/journalgems

http://www.inephi.com/Search.htm

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: December 13, 2012 05:23PM


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Posted by: Jackk ( )
Date: December 13, 2012 05:22PM

Todd Compton has not been drummed out for telling the truth. He is still a member in good standing. I know him personally.

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: December 13, 2012 05:54PM

Thanks for the correction. I must have had him confused with Grant Palmer or one of the others that were.

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: December 13, 2012 05:13PM


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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: December 13, 2012 05:19PM

Note that the scan is hard to read. However when I pasted the image into Paint and resized to 150% I could read it well enough to verify that the words matched the transcription.

If you aren't familiar enough with computers to do this email me at brian@brightbuilders.com and I can email you a re-sized image.

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: December 13, 2012 05:24PM

Double jackpot

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Letter_from_Joseph_Smith_to_the_Whitneys_%2818_August_1842%29

(This also references the book published by Deseret Book as it's source.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2012 05:30PM by bc.

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Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: December 13, 2012 05:21PM

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/M18D-5C8


This used to show all of his wives, but they've cleaned it up a bit to try and hide the truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith's_wives

These were all on family search not long ago. They realized RFM got wind of it, and they erased most of the list.

http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no112.htm#Chart



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2012 05:40PM by Mia.

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Posted by: sometimes lurker ( )
Date: December 13, 2012 11:39PM

I can no longer get into the Family Search site. i remember that they only had 24 wives listed and last I knew, they had changed Helen Mar Kimball's birthday so she wasnt 14 when smith married her.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: December 13, 2012 05:21PM

From what I've read on here, you can find the marriages listed under the wives' names on Family Search. The marriages used to be listed under JS's name as well, but in the name of obfuscation, the Mo church did away with that.

The "Wives of Joseph Smith" website can give you the women's names.

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Posted by: anubis ( )
Date: December 13, 2012 05:23PM

Utah lighthouse ministry (Tanners) That blew my parents out of the water and out of mormonism.

Photo copies of everything.

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Posted by: amos2 ( )
Date: December 13, 2012 05:45PM

If you NEED just-perfect "proof" that Joseph Smith was a big-time polygamist...then you're still very emotionally dependent on the church.
The actual proof of the fraud of the LDS church is written all over it. It's what the church plainly professes. It's the scientific, social, moral, and logical impossibilities.
People who think it's true WANT it to be true...they need it to be true for emotionally codependent reasons.

The mormons do have a logical point...if the Book of Mormon is true then Joseph Smith was a prophet.
The Book of Mormon is plainly UNTRUE in itself.
It has racist verses.
It has a very problematic view of the Hebrews (pun intended).
It has genocidal verses about native americans and jews.
It endorses many biblical absurdities wholesale...and I don't believe them in the bible so I can assume they're false in the BoM too.

Suppose Joseph Smith WASN'T a polygamist. Suppose he was more like his better-tempered yet still-lying collaborators Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdery, and even his own parents. Suppose we had NOTHING on him. It doesn't make the BoM true.
I don't need to know ANYTHING about Joseph Smith to know the book is bull. Like a reverse Vincenzo di Fransesca story...I can find it in the trash with all information about it's publication torn out, and still know it's bull just by what it says.
Someone who thinks it's true, with or without Joseph Smith, has other issues.

Certainly when I was TBM I had many reasons for believing that didn't even depend on the BoM or Joseph Smith. Something had to happen. Something had to snap. My own sense of congruency about the church had to give. I had to be an internal dilemma to me. Years of hearing that Joseph Smith was a polygamist never got to me.

But, apparently for some people polygamy IS the deal-breaker.

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Posted by: smorg ( )
Date: December 13, 2012 11:21PM

Isn't your wife familiar with D&C 132? You hardly need extra evidence that he acted on it. The 'revelation' itself ought to be damning enough to any reasonable person. It's twistedly disgusting. What the heck sort of god would command anything like that?

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: December 14, 2012 12:08AM

That's true - if you can figure out what it is saying. I've never seen such a jumbled mess.

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Posted by: Ex-CultMember ( )
Date: December 14, 2012 12:11AM

Yes, D&C 132 is clearly a revelation given to Joseph Smith directing Emma to accept the plural wives he was given. Notice how the revelation mention "virgins" and that the purpose was to "raise seed." How do you raise seed without sex? These aren't old widows needing financial support.

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Posted by: Mormoney ( )
Date: December 14, 2012 12:16AM

FAIR acknowledges a lot of this stuff in order to attempt to provide explanations for it. FAIR is really what did me in cause their explanations really do suck

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Posted by: The 1st FreeAtLast ( )
Date: December 14, 2012 03:35AM

https://familysearch.org/search/trees#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3AJoseph%20%2Bsurname%3ASmith%20%2Bbirth_place%3A%22Sharon%2C%20Vermont%22%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1805-1805&collection_id=%282%203%29

From scratch, go to familysearch.org and use the Search function to hunt for Joseph Smith, born in Sharon, Vermont in 1805. Click on the Search button (lower left) and on the next webpage that loads, you'll see Search Results from User Submitted Trees, as well as:

Joseph Smith
Joseph SMITH
Joseph Smith Jr.
All 767 results

Click on "All 767 results" and look on the right side of the webpage at JS' listed wives (as you scroll down). Females shown include: Emma Hale, Malissa Lott, Almera Woodard Johnson, Fanny Young, Eliza Roxey Snow, Louisa BEMAN, Prescendia Lathrop HUNTINGTON, Cordelia Calista MORLEY, ​Martha MCBRIDE, ​Sarah LAWRENCE, ​Sarah Ann WHITNEY, ​Sylvia Porter SESSIONS, ​Catherine WALKER, ​Sarah SCOTT, ​Melissa SNOW, ​Sarah STILES, ​Sophronia Gray FROST, ​Helen Mar KIMBALL, ​Malissa LOTT, ​Mary Elizabeth ROLLINS, ​Rhoda RICHARDS, ​Lucy WALKER, ​Zina Diantha HUNTINGTON, ​Emma HALE, ​Eliza Roxey SNOW, ​Mary HOUSTON, ​Desdemona Wadsworth FULLMER, ​Nancy Mariah WINCHESTER, ​and Amanda Melissa BARNES.

Your wife can check the list against the one of females listed at www.wivesofjosephsmith.org.

The following is text that I posted on RfM in 2010 that should help:

One of the best ways of cracking open Mormons' 'faith' is to reveal to them the fact that Joseph Smith (JS) was a liar, manipulator, adulterer and pedophile.

The LDS Church's section summary for D&C 132, the 'revelation' on polygamy written (down) by JS just over 166 years ago, says:

"Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132)

According to LDS scripture, two key polygamy "principles" were:

i. A Mormon priesthood holder could desire and marry only virgins who were "vowed to no other man" (i.e., not betrothed to a fiancée, or married).
ii. The first wife (Emma, in JS' case) had to give her consent to the plural marriage.

The scripture in question was D&C 132:61:

"And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/61#61)

In the case of 11 women that 'prophet' and Mormon Church president Joseph Smith made his plural wives, they were already vowed to their husband, and as married women, certainly not virgins (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/).

"...for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else." The 11 women belonged to their husband.

JS committed adultery at least 11 times (12, actually, when you include his extra-marital affair with teenager Fanny Alger, servant girl in the Smith home; ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm).

JS' "discreet" marriage to teenager Fanny Alger, his first polygamous wife, can be viewed at https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/SP82-WTV. Most Latter-day Saints are clueless about who she was and her place in Mormon history.

Now, why did Joseph Smith make married women his plural wives - committing adultery in the process - when the Lord forbade it, and did so not just once or twice, but 11 times? Why wasn't he excommunicated for adultery?

The Mormon Church and LDS 'prophets' have taught for generations that adultery is a 'sin' next to murder and any church member who has committed adultery does not have the Holy Ghost with him/her and cannot receive revelation from God.

JS disobeyed the 'revealed' word of God (directly to him, no less) every time he desired, pursued and married a married Mormon woman. In the case of at least one of them, Sylvia Lyon (married to Windsor Lyon), JS fathered her daughter:

“On January 27, 1844 her [Sylvia’s] only surviving child, Philofreen, also died. At this time, Sylvia was eight months pregnant with her fourth child, Josephine Rosetta Lyon. Josephine later wrote, “Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith”. (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/08-SylviaSessionsLyon.htm)

In May 1843, JS made a 14-year-old, two 17-year-olds and a 19-year-old his plural wives. The 14-year-old, Helen Mar Kimball, was his youngest-yet plural wife, as the genealogy data on the list of JS' plural wives on FamilySearch.org shows.

One wonders why, of all the single women in Nauvoo who were in their 20s and 30s, JS pursued and married teenage girls young enough to be his daughters and other men's wives.

On July 12, 1843, just two months after JS married the teenage girls mentioned above, he wrote down a 'divine' death threat ("threat of destruction") directed at his first and only legal wife, Emma (who was Relief Society president) if she didn't accept his plural wives, remain with him, "cleave unto" him, and accept polygamy. D&C 132:52 and 54:

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those [plural wives] that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure [virgins] before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law [polygamy].

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/52#54)

How extraordinarily convenient for JS that the Lord was willing to turn a blind eye to his adultery (no rebuke, no revelation that he should be excommunicated), and back him up in his practice of polygamy by threatening to kill (destroy) Emma if she didn't get on JS' polygamy 'wagon' pronto!

According to the 'revelation' on polygamy that JS wrote down on July 12, 1843, the reason for plural marriage was to get virgins pregnant so that they would bear children, thereby increasing God’s glory:

“But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.”

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/63#63)

In JS' day, the only way for Mormon women and teenage girls to "bear the souls of men" was to become pregnant through sexual intercourse (human artificial insemination wasn't developed until the 1940s).

Gaining access to females who could "multiply and replenish the earth" was important to JS. In the case of 16-year-old Lucy Walker, whose mother died after the Walker family converted to Mormonism and moved to Nauvoo in the spring of 1841, he separated the teenage girl from her father (by sending him away on a 2-year mission to the Eastern United States) and her surviving siblings (her sister, Lydia, had died only months before of “brain fever”) by placing her siblings with families in Nauvoo and ‘inviting’ the unsuspecting girl to live in the home of ‘the Prophet’ (himself).

“While living in the Smith home, Lucy remembers: “In the year 1842 President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said, ‘I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.’ My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me...He asked me if I believed him to be a Prophet of God. ‘Most assuredly I do I replied.’...He fully Explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage. Said this principle was again to be restored for the benefit of the human family. That it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father’s house.”

“What do you have to Say?” Joseph asked. “Nothing” Lucy replied, “How could I speak, or what would I say?” Joseph encouraged her to pray: “tempted and tortured beyond endureance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother...Why – Why Should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father I am only a child in years and experience. No mother to council; no father near to tell me what to do, in this trying hour. Oh let this bitter cup pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.”

Joseph told Lucy that the marriage would have to be secret, but that he would acknowledge her as his wife, “beyond the Rocky Mountains”. He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, “It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.”

“Lucy married Joseph on May 1, 1843. At the time, Emma was in St. Louis buying supplies for the Nauvoo hotel. Lucy remembers, “Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at all.”’ (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm)

Not informing Emma of his latest plural marriage and first obtaining Emma’s consent was a violation of the Lord’s commandment to JS: “…if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent...for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.”

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/61#61).

Secretly marrying Lucy Walker was not the first time that JS did not obtain Emma’s consent (she discovered her husband and teenage servant girl Fanny Alger having sex in the barn and complained to Mormon Apostle Oliver Cowdery, Joseph’s second cousin and BoM scribe, about her husband’s extra-marital affair; Fanny was sent away by Emma because the teenage girl was “was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet”, in other words, Fanny’s swelling womb; ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm).

2. In the BoM, in Jacob 2:24, it says:

"Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord."
(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jacob/2/24#24)

However, in the 'revelation' on polygamy that Joseph Smith wrote down on July 12, 1843, it says (in verse 1):

"Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines"
(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132)

How is it that in the BoM, the Lord, who according to scripture is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, condemned as "abominable" the practice of David and Solomon of having wives and concubines, but then contradicted himself in the 'revelation' on polygamy to JS by saying he "justified" (i.e., approved of) the practice?

Answer: When JS WROTE the BoM prior to its publication in 1830, he had only one wife: Emma. But in July 1843, when he wrote down the 'revelation' on polygamy that supposedly came from 'the Lord' (into his mind), he had several plural wives. In July 1843, Joseph Smith had forgotten what he wrote about David and Solomon and their practice of having wives and concubines 13+ years earlier.

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