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Posted by: eddie ( )
Date: October 02, 2010 07:15AM

When I was first learning of the historical problems with Mormonism the multiple accounts of the first vision were very enlightening. It is not possible for someone to remember such an emotional and significant experience in such extremely different ways as time progresses.

So the first...first vision was as follows:


"Principle elements of the account:

* Several years before obtaining the plates, a spirit appeared to Joseph in a vision telling him of a record on gold plates.

* When Joseph went to get the plates the spirit, transforming from toad to man, struck Joseph twice and gave him instructions to come back again in a year, a command repeated several years in a row.

* Approximate age 17 (1823) when spirit first appears.

* Joseph obtains gold book using the seer stone he found in the well of Willard Chase.

* Gold book found in the context of money-digging

* Age 21 (1827) when Joseph retrieves plates

* No mention of a revival

* Joseph retrieves plates while out with his wife but hides them in the woods

* Joseph approaches Martin Harris, a man with money, to say that God has given Joseph a commandment that Harris is the one God wants to assist [financially] in producing the Book of Mormon.


The Account

"In the month of June, 1827, Joseph Smith, Sen. related to me the following story: ‘That some years ago, a spirit had appeared to Joseph his son, in a vision, and informed him that in a certain place there was a record on plates of gold, and that he was the person that must obtain them, and this he must do in the following manner: On the 22nd of September, he must repair to the place where was deposited this manuscript, dressed in black clothes, and riding a black horse with a switch tail, and demand the book in a certain name, and after obtaining it, he must go directly away, and neither lay it down nor look behind him. They accordingly fitted out Joseph with the suit of black clothes, and borrowed a black horse. He repaired to the place of deposit and demanded the book, which was in a stone box, unsealed, and so near the top of the ground that he could see one end of it, and raising it up, took out the book of gold; but fearing some one might discover where he got it, he laid it down to place back the top stone, as he found it; and turning around, to his surprise there was no book in sight. He again opened the box, and in it saw the book, and attempted to take it out, but was hindered. He saw in the box something like toad, which soon assumed the appearance of a man, and struck him on the side of his head. - Not being discouraged at trifles, he again stooped down and strove to take the book, when the spirit struck him again, and knocked him three or four rods, and hurt him prodigiously. After recovering from his fright, he inquired why he could not obtain the plates; to which the spirit made reply, because you have not obeyed your orders.

"... In the fore part of September, (I believe,) 1827, the Prophet [Joseph Smith] requested me to make him a chest, informing me that he designed to move back to Pennsylvania, and expecting soon to get his gold book, he wanted a chest to lock it up, giving me to understand at the same time, that if I would make the chest he would give me a share in the book. ... "A few weeks after this conversation, he came to my house and related the following story: That on the 22nd of September, he arose early in the morning, and took a one horse wagon, of someone that had stayed over night at their house, without leave or license; and, together with his wife, repaired to the hill which contained the book. He left his wife in the wagon, by the road, and went alone to the hill, a distance of thirty or forty rods from the road; he said he took the book out of the ground and hid it in a tree top, and returned home. ... He then observed that if it had not been for that stone [Joseph's money-digging seer stone], (which he acknowledged belonged to me,) he would not have obtained the book. A few days afterwards, he told one of my neighbors that he had not got any such book, nor never had such an one; but that he had told the story to deceive the d-d fool, (meaning me,) to get him to make a chest. His neighbors having become disgusted with his foolish stories, he determined to go back to Pennsylvania, to avoid what he called persecution. His wits were now put to the task to contrive how he should get money to bear his expenses. He met one day in the streets of Palmyra, a rich man, whose name was Martin Harris, and addressed him thus; ‘I have a commandment from God to ask the first man I meet in the street to give me fifty dollars, to assist me in doing the work of the Lord by translating the Golden Bible.' Martin being naturally a credulous man, hands Joseph the money."

http://www.irr.org/mit/first-vision/fvision-accounts.html

Then there were nine ensuing and very divergent accounts. As with most things surrounding Mormonism outright lies and inconsistencies swirled around the first vision accounts. The final first vision account that we hear in church also presents a further serious historical problems including:

1. The first vision story did not appear until 22 years after it supposedly happened

2. Joseph Smith was not persecuted as he claims

3. There was no religious fervor in his area during the time he claimed

See also: http://www.mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: October 02, 2010 07:39AM

I've always wondered where the Singing Frog character in the Buggs Bunny Looney Tunes cartoons came from...

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: October 02, 2010 01:38PM

The toad in this account is what gave Mark Hofmann the idea for the "white salamander" in the famous "salamander letter" forgery. Hofmann always tried to make his forgeries fit the historical record.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: October 02, 2010 01:59PM

The Baura Challenge:

I will pay $2000 (US) to anyone who can show that Joseph Smith CLAIMED to have seen God the Father and Jesus Christ as separate personages who told him to join none of the then existing churches. Note that I'm not asking anyone to prove that the First Vision actually happened but that Joseph Smith claimed it happened.

Here's the kicker: you are limited to documents in existence BEFORE 1835. Since it supposedly happened in the spring of 1820 this gives a fourteen-year period for something to have been written concerning the First Vision.

During this fourteen year period there were letters written, newspaper articles published, affidavits of Joseph's neighbors sworn, books about Mormonism published, Church periodicals published, missionary pamphlets and broadsides printed, sermons recorded and reported, diaries and journals kept. The documentary record from this period that discusses Mormonism is staggering. All you have to do to get the two-thousand dollars is find any mention in any of this of

(1) God the Father and Jesus Christ appearing as separate personages to the young Joseph Smith,

and

(2) them telling Joseph Smith to join none of the existing churches.

Do that and you get a cool $2000.

Cheers,

Baura



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2010 02:01PM by baura.

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Posted by: luminouswatcher ( )
Date: October 09, 2010 09:36AM


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Posted by: CA girl ( )
Date: October 09, 2010 05:23PM

I have someone I might use it on. The same person I was asking about Guns, Germs and Steel for. Glad you took the time to post it again.

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Posted by: Mark Hofmann ( )
Date: October 19, 2010 04:37PM

Let me see what I can up with--I could sure use that 2 grand for ciggy money here in the clink.

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Posted by: lucifer smith jr. ( )
Date: October 19, 2010 05:08PM

Mark Hofmann Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let me see what I can up with--I could sure use
> that 2 grand for ciggy money here in the clink.


now thats funny, my faithful servant joe, sitting next to me, is even smiling

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Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: October 19, 2010 04:49PM

baura Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Baura Challenge:
>
> I will pay $2000 (US) to anyone who can show that
> Joseph Smith CLAIMED to have seen God the Father
> and Jesus Christ as separate personages who told
> him to join none of the then existing churches.

Did JS ever explicitly say that in any of his "first vision" versions that he saw GOD and/or JESUS? "Angel" and "personage" are the terms used, right?

LDS make the connection from him saying that he retired to ask *God* and that two *personages* answered. Maybe JS did make that connection in another place...

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: October 02, 2010 01:59PM

Amen for the singing toad!! LOL!

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Posted by: topper ( )
Date: October 09, 2010 08:30AM


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Posted by: Mo larkey ( )
Date: October 09, 2010 10:14AM

it was on a spring day...that's it?

... no date of the most important date in modern history when god and JC visited NEw England

I want a date... what day was it, month etc?

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Posted by: ExMormonRon ( )
Date: October 19, 2010 04:12PM

Mo larkey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it was on a spring day...that's it?
>
> ... no date of the most important date in modern
> history when god and JC visited NEw England
>
> I want a date... what day was it, month etc?


April 1, 1824. Where the hell have you been?

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Posted by: sisterexmo ( )
Date: October 19, 2010 04:42PM

That would just be too cosmic for a guy who would be able to fool millions.

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Posted by: Willum ( )
Date: October 19, 2010 04:01PM

I'm dissapointed. I was able to purchase several of the the white salamander pins during the 2002 SLC Winter Olympics. I figured that their value would increase through the years, due to their being discontinued after the MoChurch objected.

Alas, they have been effectively repackaged as "Gecko" pins, so they're just another Olympic Pin.

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: October 19, 2010 04:26PM

I was in a college institute class the first time that I learned about different versions of the first vision. The instructor assured us that he had seen them, and that we didn't need to look at them because they were just versions that "emphasised different aspects of the same events."

"These aren't the droids you're looking for. You can go about your business."

It raised a red flag, but I was busy with other classes so I didn't pay it too much mind. Just figured, I would look for the information later.

A semester later, I was in a different class and it was the first time I had heard that the "official first vision" wasn't written until more than a decade after it had happened, and that hit me like a ton of bricks.

The instructor at this point tried to answer the inevitable question as to, "why?" by putting up a quote from Maxwell to answer the question. I don't remember the exact quote except how it starts, "some half-believers..."

That was a big "crack" for me. If there was a decent explanation to this issue, a "representative of the lord" wouldn't need to begin the answer with a perjorative that is only meant to induce guilt and shame.

At that point, I knew that I didn't know anything about real church history and I needed to research on my own.

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