I'm Getting Beat UP by a TBM Friend..... I Need An UpperCut Power Punch! Anyone Have A Strong Argument Point To Shut Him UP!!!

I think I'm doing pretty good, but could still use some help. He just keeps talking and doing TBM mind tricks and apologist tactics.

One time I asked "why have the last couple "church historians" been attorneys and not historians?" He couldn't think of a response and said, "uh, umm, uh, I uh, I uh, do know."

It was great, but he's been talking over me a lot and I know he's feeling really confident at the moment.

So, any good punches you can help me with?

On what subject?

If it's modern issues I find Utah statistics to be rather telling:
http://www.mormonprobe.com/index.php?topic=By%20Their%20Fruits

I also find Lucy Walker's anguish expressed in her diary about Joseph Smith essentially grooming her and using his position to force her to marry him pretty strong:
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm

Just because someone's better at debating, it doesn't make them right.

I don't understand why you guys put yourselves through these debates (those who do). With a completely brain-washed person, it's a waste of time.

The "punch" moment for me was watching the video on YouTube about DNA and the BoM. But for a TBM, they just say that it must be wrong and God will tell us how someday. They have an answer for everything. Their God wins every time.

one at a time.

"The bottom line is this. You believe angels visit treasure hunters and tell them where ancient books that have disappeared through a conduit up into the heavens, are buried. You believe this because ... Well you were conditioned to believe it. You are brainwashed. So get some common sense, then come back and we can talk."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2012 07:37PM by suckafoo.

I prayed and was told by an angel with a flaming sword that if I didn't quit the Mormon church he would cut my solong off. So now I an exMormon, what would you have chosen?

Why doesn't a single, truly, not one single, accredited (sp?) university teach BOM archaeology as an actual historic/prehistoric event? Even YBU has caveats.

Every culture that ever existed that had the horse, celebrated the horse. After contact in America, we see petroglyphs of horses. Why is there not one single, not one single, image of a horse in pre-columbian America? Yet in the short amount of time after the Spanish intorduced the horse, there are thousands of post-contact petroglyphs of horses?

Why isn't there a single BOM artifact? I'm not talking site, or major site. But a single artifact that can be absolutely tied to the BOM? We have tons of evidence concerning paleo-indian hunter gatherer cultures dating back to 14K bc. But not one speck concerning cultures that supposedly built monumental architecture (sp?, It's gettin late for me.), advanced metal works, and hemispheric wars involving millions or people?

Seriously?????

I could go on, but the list is endless. Find almost any claim in the BOM, and compare it to reality. And there you go.

Personally, I'm not sure I have a smoking gun but asking questions is usually more effective than providing statements to a Mormon. Because if you can get them off-script, they have no answers and this confuses them. So next time, ask him to explain hgimself and when he gives you a lame answer, ask him to explain that. Also, use LDS sources whenever possible. That also confuses them. Like when I say I was disturbed by something I read about the church on the internet that proved the church was lying - tbms immediately say "anti-Mormon websites" and if I reply "no - it was a church website" (i.e. BYU, JoD online, church websites etc.) it really messes with their heads.

Options:

Say, "silly person," then turn around and strut away like the minister of silly walks.

Say, "Your Jedi mind tricks don't work on me, haah."

Throw him to the floor, very roughly.

Or, better yet, stop conversing with him altogether. It's going nowhere.

http://www.godandscience.org/cults/smithsonian.html

Ask him about the official statement regarding the Book of Mormon by The Smithsonian.

The Smithsonian is clearly a tool of Stan.

And don't you know that god took all the bones and evidence and moved them to test our faith? Just like the 116 pages, the ark, the millions of "bones" in the desert after the Jews fled the Pharoah? And the bones of dinosaurs were placed there to test our faith?

DOn't you love that as an exmo, you know where they are going to go next?

Then you can recognize the tools he's probably using on you.

All they've got is threats, fear, talking down to you, character assasination, obfuscation (talking a lot all around the issue, to sound like they know a lot, but really just confusing the issue with random mutterings), trying to make you doubt your sources and your ability to think for yourself, and pretending they can read your mind and motivations.

The temple really does it for me ...

Make him read http://www.ephesians5-11.org/handshakes.htm and he'll realize the endowment was shamelessly plagiarized from freemasonry. Then ask him how an objectively-minded person can honestly accept that the endowment was revealed straight from God when Joseph introduced the endowment (copied and modified Masonic rites) two months after becoming a Mason, but Freemasonry originated during the Great Apostasy? (BTW the Kirtland temple didn't have the Masonic parallels.)

If he served a mission then he undoubtedly accused the Catholic church of apostasy for changing baptism to a sprinkling. If Catholics can't change immersion to sprinkling, why can mormons change the holy ordinance washing and annointing from a nude full-body scrub in a tub to rubbing a single drop of water across your forehead? Seems equivalent to changing baptism to sprinkling ...

"Because god told the mormons to change theirs, but he didn't tell the catholics to change theirs."

What specific arguments are they throwing at you that you don't feel you have answers for?

Otherwise, I'll trot out what BF has to say on the matter:

"If you're yelling at an idiot, make sure he is not doing the same thing."

Brilliant

Rather than try to win an argument, tell him to stop being an ass and knock off the talking over you crap.

Then quote the 11th Article of Faith, and if he won't respect it, let him know he's not following his OWN faith, so he certainly isn't right telling others how to live theirs.

And then stop talking about faith - because it's pretty clear it's a bad subject to discuss with this "friend".

One doesn't have to be a certified historian to do history or to employed in the field. However, to help you out more it would be useful to know more about what your arguments are and what his arguments are.

Stop fighting.
Start loving.

Don't get into an argument unless you really know your sh!t.

Why does the one true church, led by Jesus himself, keep its financial statements SECRET from its members, unlike other churches and nonprofits?

"No they don't"

Oh really, then tell where I can read them and how much they received in donations last year.

It is absolutely impossible to argue about religion. Religious people base their beliefs on emotion, which cannot be disprove with any amount of facts and evidence.

The Mormon prophet could tell them that there are giant Quakers living on the moon and they'd just believe it, despite the fact that they KNOW there is no oxygen and we've been to the moon and SEEN that there are no Quakers there. Facts do not matter to such people. Only their feelings matter.

You can not hold a rational argument by pitting facts against feelings.

If he's talking over you, the discussion has devolved into an argument. Don't waste your breathe. When someone talks over you, they are no longer having a conversation, and they are only concerned with being heard, not hearing you. Completely useless for both of you. Mormons often behave this way when they experience cognitive dissonance. In that case, you should would walk away from the discussion today with an affirmation that you won this round. The more cognitive dissonance you can cause them -- which is very uncomfortable for them, and therefore combative -- the more you will begin to unravel the brain wash. You have to wake them up one little chink in the armor at a time. Sounds like you're on the right track.

Personally I would have an email back and forth, or something of the like that is written, and not face to face. That would ensure nobody's talking over anyone and each of you can respond to each other appropriately. Good luck! It's really hard to do what you're doing! I believe the master of this kind of discussion is Raptor Jesus. He's seriously excellent at working around the circular reasoning. Check out his recent epic Facebook debate with a tbm. He delivered a descisive knock out and made it look easy! You're more patient than me. I avoid these arguments.

I just don't see any apologetic out that isn't ridiculous for the Book of Abraham - you have to call them on all the logical fallacies they try to use but end the end there really is no out.

http://www.mormonprobe.com/index.php?topic=Book%20of%20Abraham

Also Joseph Smith's and polyandry is pretty tough to come up with a reasonable defense for. The usual defense is "I don't want to believe it so it must be lies." The answer to that is - well then let's check the references.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2012 03:28PM by bc.

In D&C 77:6 it says that the earth has a total of seven thousand years of temporal existence and in other scriptures we learn that there was no death on the earth before the Fall of Adam around six thousand years ago. However scientists have conclusively demonstrated that the Earth is at least 4.3 billion years old and that for millions of years the remains of creatures that have died break down into kerogen have undergone catagenesis into hydrocarbons such as petroleum and natural gas. If the earth was only several thousands of years ago as the church teaches then we wouldn't have enough fossil fuels for us to fill up our vehicle tanks, use public transportation, have electricity, or gas service.


References from a different thread:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,721759
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/fall-of-adam?lang=eng
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/77.6?lang=eng
http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel#Origin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catagenesis_(geology)

If someone can get past the church's polygamy, the triple combo (racism, genocide, and dyssemitism in the BoM, DC, PGP), money-or-your-family-temple-ransom ("tithing"), right-wing polarization, sexual discrimination...to name a few...they've been "bamboozled" (Carl Sagan).

You're "arguing" with someone who doesn't actually use an argument. False premises and logical fallacy can't be argued...that's why they're CALLED false premises and logical fallacy.

If the "argument" could be won...it would have happened a long time ago.

Say to him, "you know, you are a master debater . . . you need to see your bishop."

Read and discuss chapter 1 of The Book of Ether

That the word Lucifer is in the Book of Mormon proves that JSmith plagiarized the King James bible and did not translate ancient records.

http://mormoncanon.com/articles/The-name-Lucifer-in-the-Book-of-Mormon