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Posted by: almostThere ( )
Date: November 12, 2012 07:33PM

Are there any good, thorough critiques of LGT anywhere?

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: November 12, 2012 09:18PM

This 2011 entry points out that there is no genetic evidence for Hebrews in Central America... That's enough for me, but I wasn't raised as a TBM, and I do understand DNA...

http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2011-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2012-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=3

Simon's book "Losing a Lost Tribe" details extensively what the BOM does say about its people; LGT believers suggest smaller populations in an unknown area of Mesoamerica (the only area on either continent with a language, a pre-requisite). While it is impossible to prove conclusively that there is no genetic evidence to be found, none has been found to date despite widespread "searching."

http://signaturebooks.com/2010/02/losing-a-lost-tribe-native-americans-dna-and-the-mormon-church/

Seriously, I find the easy way to dismiss either the LGT or the "Heartland" theory is to consider the utter impossibility of a transoceanic voyage circa 600 B.C. No maritime compass, no cross the ocean...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2012 09:19PM by SL Cabbie.

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Posted by: scooter ( )
Date: November 13, 2012 10:17AM


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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: November 13, 2012 10:26AM

And hot air balloons weren't invented until the 18th century and shouldn't be brought to this discussion.

SLC
Getting ready to geld a Sorensonite as a get well card for another RFM-er

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Posted by: brefots ( )
Date: November 13, 2012 03:24PM

In an unknown and geographically small area is pretty much impossible assertion to debunk. But mesoamerica is not unknown, it's about the only part of the new world where we actually have a pretty good idea about what happened in BoM times and therefore it's the only area where we are confident that there were no Nephites or Lamanite there. Talk about being so stupid as to place BoM in the only area where it absolutely didn't happen.

Limited geography indeed!

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Posted by: almostThere ( )
Date: November 13, 2012 02:56PM

Hey, these links are great! Thank you! I'm just now reading the Doctrines of Salvation one! Awesome!

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Posted by: dk ( )
Date: November 12, 2012 09:39PM

One data point doesn't prove anything. As the saying goes, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

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Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: November 12, 2012 09:41PM

Here's a little bit of thought.


The Book of Mormon: Helaman 3:8 And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east.



Massive cities destroyed and built: For example, 3 nephi 8-10 details the destruction - by Jesus - of at least 13 cities. That's not that limited of a geography. Furthermore, after Jesus appears at their temple in bountiful, they take a few days to gather a small minority of people from the lands around them. And even further, in 4 nepho, it takes them years to go out and proselytize the rest of the people to form their utopian society that eventually "they were spread upon all the face of the land" (v 23).


The D&C: Doctrine and Covenants (which specifically identifies North American Natives as Lamanites) and even Joseph Smith himself. If one is to accept any variation of this 'limited geography theory', one must completely disregard the LDS church's current and past declarations on the matter and basically stand in direct opposition to current and past church teachings.

Weapons Proliferation: Lehi and family brought with them significant metallurgy and weapons skills. There is zero evidence for this. Such weaponry would have been adopted by Ancient Americans and proliferated well beyond supposed jewish newcomers.

Zelph: Can't both be in Mesoamerica and in the Midwest US. See http://www.mormonthink.com/zelph.htm



Furthermore, by adopting the LGT the LDS Church is painting itself into a corner that might eventually force it to disappear or at least wholly re-invent itself.

LGT->elimates Flood->elimates young earth and Adam & Eve
LGT->limits Lamanites->diminishes Israel/covenant->muddies gathering & 2nd Coming doctrines

And these together diminish the doctrine of Christ.

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: November 12, 2012 09:49PM

A couple more toughts:

1) The sheer numbers of the Jaredite nation. 2 million are referenced but that is after a major culling from a multi-year bloody war.

Ancient technology requires being spread out quite widely to accommodate that many people. You have a similar problem although not quite on the same scale with the Nephite/Lamanite population.


2) In Alma with Helaman & Moroni & Zarahemla they don't communicate for months/years. At all. Heleman sends a letter after 2 years of battle to bring Moroni up to speed. This is ludicrous under any circumstance. However the only way it could in any way shape or form make any sense is if the area covered is extremely vast. (The fact horses exist also make this problematic.)

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Posted by: twojedis ( )
Date: November 13, 2012 10:01AM

I never thought about being spread out. They couldn't transport enough food to support such a city, nor grow it, especially without farm equipment. Thus, why the BOM numbers don't add up, since population growth didn't really happen, or if it did, it was a snail's pace.

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Posted by: jebus ( )
Date: November 13, 2012 01:25AM

J Smith..?

Good comments, help me with connection to Flood please.

thanks.

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Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: November 13, 2012 10:13AM

jebus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> J Smith..?
>
> Good comments, help me with connection to Flood
> please.
>
> thanks.

The flood is considered limited too, because if there was a global flood (as indicated/implied in Ether 13:2) then there would have been no humans in America. If that were the case, then apologists would need to explain the massive populations in America just based on the few jewish settlements.

A LGT also implies then, that there were humans before and that the overwhelming science evidence showing Beringa migrations also eliminates the concept that Adam and Eve were the first humans. That eliminates a lot of the literally interpretted doctrine about the fall. And the atonement is predicated on the fall of adam. "As in Adam, all die, as in Christ all live."

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Posted by: xyz ( )
Date: November 12, 2012 09:43PM

Meaning: it is NOT what Smith claimed for his book of Moron, therefore one or both of them is prevaricating/lying. Which is it?

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Posted by: nickname ( )
Date: November 13, 2012 02:56AM

One critique is that it has been thought up after the fact. The LGT is a way around the complete lack of evidence for another theory of theirs, that the BoM is an authentic historical document. The LGT is not supported by the text of the BoM nor by any "revelations" from any Mormon prophet. It is quite clearly a theory which was invented by a group of educated Mormons grasping at the final straws of their faith in the face of insurmountable evidence against the BoM.

They haven't found any evidence of these three great empires, so the "empires" must have actually been too small to be noticed?? It is a theory based on a LACK of evidence, rather than one based on any actual facts. Its ignores the text which it tries to prove authentic. It flies in the face of both their own scripture and all real scholarly research.

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Posted by: almostThere ( )
Date: November 13, 2012 09:28AM

Thanks for the responses, everyone! I'm just trying to put together a solid, cohesive argument, just for my own sanity (though I'm not sure how well that will be preserved. I can't seem talk about this with ANYONE other than you guys... THANK YOU!!!!)

Here's my thoughts so far:
I could read the BOM again (groooooaaaaaannn......), because I think an honest reading would refute it. I think the only thing in the text that supports LGT is the small travel times.

I was thinking of reading Meldrum's "Prophesies and Promises", because I think he will lay out pretty well the fact that Smith claimed revelatory knowledge about nephites in the US. Other than that, I've read some of the FARMS critiques of his stuff, and they knock him pretty dead (except for Joseph Smith's knowledge stuff... Seriously, if it wasn't a claimed revelation, how DID he come up with "Zelph"?). Funny how they use real criticism on him, but can't seem to come up with much for the real critics!

I would like to read B.H. Roberts' "Studies of the Book of Mormon". Is it good?

I have read Southerton's book, but it's been a while. I'll have to go back to it. I know most of the criticism from apologists is that with LGT, you wouldn't expect to find any evidence. They say Simon assumes a hemispheric model, which he does, but that's because that's what the church taught him!

Of course, to an informed objective observer, the LGT does seem to be made up after the fact. Thanks for the term "ad hoc". I just looked it up, and it fits LGT perfectly!

Thanks everybody!

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: November 13, 2012 03:54PM

And honest, it sits on the desktop of both my big work station and my little laptop... The research is done, but every time I start to assemble it, I break out laughing...

John L. Sorenson, emeritus professor of anthropology at BYU, originated the LGT. He's also a "hyper-diffusionist," one of those who claims extensive pre-Columbian Old World/New World trade and contact. There's no doubt he was influenced by the Book of Mormon on that one (which is itself a "diffusionist" document). I addressed this issue here...

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon606.htm

In addition to the "small travel times" that argue for the LGT, a huge element is the presence of a written language, unknown in this hemisphere except in Mesoamerica...

Simon Southerton was responsible for my exposure to this information, and I know he's influenced Jesus Smith considerably as well. Truth works that way... Simon also pointed out to me Sorenson was in Tahiti on an LDS mission when Thor Heyerdahl "made landfall" with his Kon Tiki raft (actually they crashed on the coral reefs and had to be rescued), and Sorenson and Heyerdahl exchanged ideas back then...

Sorenson was also the one who suggested that the "horses" in the BOM were actually tapirs...

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Posted by: Simon in Oz ( )
Date: August 29, 2013 05:57PM

almostThere Wrote:

>
> I have read Southerton's book, but it's been a
> while. I'll have to go back to it. I know most
> of the criticism from apologists is that with LGT,
> you wouldn't expect to find any evidence. They
> say Simon assumes a hemispheric model, which he
> does, but that's because that's what the church
> taught him!
>

Hi almostThere,
If you re-read my book you will see that I do not simply assume a hemispheric model (straw man) and only criticise it. I go into considerable detail about the Limited Geography model and explain how the DNA conflicts with it as well. I can understand why many people have assumed this because the apologists have banged on and on with this claim. But the claim is not true.

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Posted by: nlocnil ( )
Date: November 13, 2012 09:31AM

This is satire, but it is a critique of Limited Geography Theory

http://www.mormoninfographics.com/2012/10/two-cumorahs-explained-with-science.html

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Posted by: almostThere ( )
Date: November 13, 2012 09:33AM

But, I know the cake is true!

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Posted by: PapaKen ( )
Date: November 13, 2012 09:53AM

Oh, what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive!

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Posted by: anon for this ( )
Date: November 13, 2012 10:05AM

The Limited Geography Theory puts a small number of Hebrew people in an already populated America. Mopologists are fond of using the gene pool of people from Asia to explain why DNA from the Near East is not found. But in doing this, they ignore the huge problem that it creates. The non-BofM people descended from migrations before Adam and Eve. Were they human when Lehi arrived? That was my ticket out of Mormondum. I threw away the Book of Mormon and Adam and Eve.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: November 13, 2012 11:42AM

No matter the historical, geographic, technological, and scientific reasons, the first critique is that Mormon scripture doesn't agree with the LGT. As our favorite dodo said "it must be done by crawling over or under or around the Book of Mormon".

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Posted by: Facsimile 3 ( )
Date: November 13, 2012 03:10PM

As others have alluded to with reference to the flood, it is important to remember that Joseph Smith taught that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri and the D&C places Adam-ondi-Ahman (the place where Adam and Eve lived after their expulsion from the garden) in Missouri as well. The only way this doctrine works is if the flood were global, thereby transporting Adam's posterity to Turkey and the Middle East.

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: November 13, 2012 05:10PM

Along these lines the Book of Mormon requires the Tower of Babel to be literally true - which, of course, is ludicrous.

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