by what means, specifically, do you come by your belief? I submit that you must claim that it comes DIRECTLY FROM GOD. My next question is, why doesn't god tell everyone else what he/she/it told you?

OK, let's try this.

What answer would YOU have given when you were a believer? (Of course, that presumes you were a believer at some point.)

My evidence was based on:

- Everyone else around me believes and why would they lie?

- Feelings and desire were considered evidence by me back then.

- The Bible recorded interactions with God, so, of course they must have happened. The book says so.

- The world exists so God must have done it (god in any gap was evidence to me back then).

- Ignorance of other cultures and a sense of ethno and egocentricity enabled me to consider my beliefs as evidence.

Little did I know I had no evidence at all that had any credibility to anyone but me.

I would answer that my only "evidence" was that I felt horrible and lousy whenever I questioned the idea of god in any way. But it turned out, that was just social pressure applied to me to shut me up and keep me in line. If I was questioning, it was because I was a bad person, or hanging out with bad people, or under the influence of Satan, or reading the "wrong" material, or "falling away," or I had "shunned the Spirit," or any one of a number of negative things. Of course it couldn't possibly be curiosity. It couldn't possibly be that god made absolutely no sense, and I was asking questions to try to figure the whole thing out, and others were upset at me because my questions threatened their fragile, unjustifiable sham of a belief system. Nope, couldn't be that. ;-)

I'm a Christian, though I'm not a Mormon or an ex-Mormon. I also don't pretend to understand the phenomenon of faith.

I don't think anyone really does, although there are some impressionistic and philosophical arguments for the existence of God. Others can articulate those far better than me.

To respond to your assumption and your question, I'm not sure if faith comes directly from God or not. It wouldn't surprise me. As for why God doesn't tell everyone the same thing, that's also a great mystery to me. From what I've seen, God tries to develop relationships with people in many different ways. Sometimes he's successful, and sometimes he's not. Another mystery, I'm afraid.

But at the end of the day, there is still faith. A blessing, in my opinion.

If there is something that God appears to want everyone to know, I think it's how we should treat each other. For all the horror and misery in the world, God really does love us, and he wants us to treat each other with the same unconditional love that he has for us.

I'm not sure if this is a good response to your question, but it's the only one I've got.

How could god have a hard time getting his point out to all people?

It seems the Christian Bible is full of conditions on God's love. The way I read the bible, one big condition is that one is required to accept Christ or one does not get into heaven.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/how_to_be_saved.html

In other world an atheist that has done everything that a Christian has done, except they reject Christ as a Saviour, and reject the idea of god(s) is not going to get to heaven. That seems very conditional to me.

Another issue is the idea that God treat us with unconditional love. Well, according to the Christian bible...

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html

That does not seem to be unconditional love to me.


So, how do you come to the idea that god treats us with unconditional love?



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 10:05PM by MJ.

I'm a nevermo Christian. I think you are confusing God's love with something else. His love is absolutely unconditional, from the Christian perspective. God loves sinners (we all are), the saved, and yes, even those who have refused his gift of salvation. You asked for a Christian perspective. Romans 5:8 says "God demonstrates His love for us by this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." His love is unconditional, which is why He dies for sinners. We are all sinners. Jesus didn't come to congratulate the spiritually healthy; He came to heal the spiritually sick!

Getting into heaven is really not related to God's love for us, except that it is made possible by Christ's loving act of self-sacrifice. God doesn't want anybody to go to hell, but people still do, because they have choices and they make poor ones and they don't trust in God's forgiveness as brought about (and demonstrated) by Christ's death on the cross. God is good and perfect, but we have chosen not to be. God is love, sure, but He is also a holy God of justice. Nothing impure can enter into His eternal presence, not because He doesn't love us, but because He cannot abide the sin that stains us when He has provided a way to cleanse us.

But from a Christian perspective, God loves everyone unconditionally: me, you, the whole world. There's not a conflict between that and Him allowing us the free will to choose against Him. Just as a woman retains the right to refuse a man's ardent proposal, so we have the right to reject God's love for us and His sacrifice on our behalf. Forced love is no love.

Clearly a God with such powers as that described in the bible and claiming to be so loving would NOT have made the suffering of Christ the corner stone of salvation. That is simply not loving.

Well, to nonmormon Christians, God is Christ, and self-sacrifice is the greatest act of love of all.

Sonoma, I wasn't replying to the OP in that post. I was replying to another post downthread. I posted a separate reply to the OP later on in the thread.

It seems as though many of you are very hostile. It's almost as if you don't want to hear alternative points of view, but really just want fodder for your self-congratulatory mocking echo chamber. It's possible to vehemently disagree and still be kind and respectful about it.

Elle Bee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Getting into heaven is really not related to God's
> love for us, except that it is made possible by
> Christ's loving act of self-sacrifice.

That is exactly my point. Getting into heaven is NOT about Love, it is ONLY about accepting Christ. Why would a god that loved me exclude me JUST because I do not accept Christ? Why would a loving God require such suffering of Christ for ANY reason?

To be honest, the idea that one must accept some concept of Christian Dogma (such as the resurrection myth) or the so called loved one (God) will not let you near them sounds like shunning, not love.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 11:04PM by MJ.

My view do not come from God as you put it. They are strictly my ideas, they could be off and I am content not to have all the answers.I also do not think I have to justify my views to you any more than you have to justify yours to me

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My view do not come from God as you put it. They
> are strictly my ideas, they could be off and I am
> content not to have all the answers.I also do not
> think I have to justify my views to you any more
> than you have to justify yours to me

So you came to your truths because you're simply smarter than everyone else?

sonoma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bona dea Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > My view do not come from God as you put it.
> They
> > are strictly my ideas, they could be off and I
> am
> > content not to have all the answers.I also do
> not
> > think I have to justify my views to you any
> more
> > than you have to justify yours to me
>
> So you came to your truths because you're simply
> smarter than everyone else?

Oh, brother! I came by my ideas because they make sense to me and I never said I know I am right. In fact I said exactly the opposite.Try reading.I'd also appreciate it if you would stop baiting me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 10:01PM by bona dea.

You don't HAVE to justify yourself if you don't want. The question is CAN you justify logically, your beliefs?

sonoma Wrote:
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> You don't HAVE to justify yourself if you don't
> want. The question is CAN you justify logically,
> your beliefs?

I was made to study logics and philosophy. One of the main parts of the philosophy section of my degree course was the difference between a factual statement and an evaluative statement.

You sure you want to go there? ;o))

This statement is factual:- "The moon is made of green cheese."

Really? That's a factual statement? Yes, according to logics and philosphy, it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 10:15PM by matt.

a belief akin to the belief in god when it comes to veracity. ;-) Seriously, thanks for a thoughtful and serious reply.

Pretty sure this is responding to me...Thanks! :)

sonoma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> n/t

THAT'S the bit about philosophy classes that made me go: "huh??"

A factual statement (we were taught) is a statement that can be proven to be true or untrue.

"The moon is made of green cheese" is a factual statement because it can be proven to be untrue by spectrographical analysis and the testing of moon rock samples.

However, this statement is NOT a factual statement but an evaluative statement: "the moon is nice because it is made of green cheese."

I decided not to take up the kind offer of further modules on philosophy and logic even though I passed the basic course in the first year! ;o))



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 10:10PM by matt.

There is nothing wrong with asking her why she believes what she does. Her defensiveness seems counter productive to an exchange of ideas on this subject.

I love to have debates about my beliefs, so long as people follow some basic rules in having a fair debate:

http://atheismresource.com/wp-content/uploads/Debate-Flow-Chart.jpg

Bona chooses not to follow these rules.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 10:33PM by MJ.

At least that is the way her description sounds to me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 09:55PM by MJ.

When I was a believer i believed that god revealed to me by the HG the truthiness of the gospel. I honestly believed that those who believed differently never asked god sincerely the same question. Can you say stooooopid?

sonoma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When I was a believer i believed that god revealed
> to me by the HG the truthiness of the gospel. I
> honestly believed that those who believed
> differently never asked god sincerely the same
> question. Can you say stooooopid?

No, I can, however, say "cult-reared." ;o))

I read the works of Dr Timothy Leary. He pointed out that, based on his research, certain drugs (like LSD) could change the way the mind worked.

Perhaps being reared in a cult works on the brain in the same way? It makes our minds operate in a way that is not natural. Like a psycho-active drug.

If religion is a crutch, to help people along, a cult is a heavy weight strapped to your back to keep you squashed down and to make you walk slowly and to stop your eyes seeing beyond the small patch of ground before your feet.

by what means, specifically, do you come by your belief? I submit that you must claim that it comes DIRECTLY FROM GOD.

How do you figure?
It's possible to have a belief about God that does not come from God. In fact, there are so many conflicting beliefs about God, I don't see how they can possibly all come from God.

belief in the existence of god must come directly from god. If it comes from anywhere else it would have to be man made, and thus false.

So, for example, I don't know much about you, but I could say that I believe you live in Utah. That belief didn't come from you, it came from me - and it may be true or it may be false.
People make up beliefs about God all the time. The beliefs don't have to come from God, religious people just like to think that they do. Lots of those beliefs are obviously false - but people may have gotten some things right just by random luck.

I love your example... especially the part about people believing that I live in Utah... a belief akin to the belief in god when it comes to veracity. ;-) Seriously, thanks for a thoughtful and serious reply.

I've asked my believing friends this question over the years. I usually get one of two answers. One, they look around at the world and see a Creator. The colours, the beauty, the variety of life. To them, it just makes sense that a Creator did it. They see a master craftsman at work.

Or two, they've simply been taught from infancy that there's a God and they've never questioned it. They say they couldn't even imagine their lives without God in it.

I think if someone had asked me that question when I was a believer, I'd have been hard-pressed to come up with an answer, because I would have had to face the fact that I never truly believed. I only hoped. When it came closer to belief, it was out of fear that I believed. It was more like I was willilng it to be true.

He joined a temple of a goddess in India and rose through the ranks.

The last secret that they revealed to him was that the goddess did not exist.

He was given the option of staying and teaching the lie of the religion to the novices or to leave an seek enlightenment outside the sect. He chose the second option.

So he probably believed his faith came from a god, but found out that the faith was untrue, that there was no god in that sect.

He could have realized that Gods and Goddesses are made by men and women, and gone off to study something useful, like particle physics.

sonoma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He could have realized that Gods and Goddesses are
> made by men and women, and gone off to study
> something useful, like particle physics.

Couldn't that be considered seeking "enlightenment outside the sect"?

After all, wasn't the Age of Enlightenment" About the idea that reason was the legitimate source of knowledge?

When I left the momos I had a tendency to look for better joseph smiths. I should have taken lots of science courses.

But, yes, seeking enlightenment outside of the sect was a perfectly good answer.

I'm a nevermo Christian. My basic belief that there is a God does, in a way, come from God, but not in the way you are thinking. It is not as though I had some "burning of the bosom" or whatever the Mormons say. The heavens, the earth, and all of creation declare the glory of God. In that sense, since God as Creator made these things, and my belief in Him comes from those things, you could say that it comes from Him.

My parents and most of my family are atheists. They do not understand why I have faith...yet, from a very young age, I believed in God because of what I saw in the world around me. The moment my faith really solidified, I was looking through a microscope. It is a moment I'll never forget. Yes, there is suffering in the world, but there is beauty and intricacy and wonder. For the record, I don't reject evolution as a process that God could use. I don't reject scientific discoveries. I do sometimes reject scientific interpretations of the data, but not the data itself.

Can I defend my belief in God logically? Why would I try? It is a belief. It is faith. God is not numerically quantifiable (well, perhaps He's infinity, but...). It's not as though I feel that reason threatens faith. I am a logical person, an intelligent person, but faith is faith because it is faith. If I see something clearly, logically, right in front of me, I don't believe it. I know it. And perhaps in some weird existential sense I also *know* that God is real, but not in the way that I *know* something logically.

Even the atheist has faith. He has faith that the mathematical system devised by humankind is always accurate. He has faith that 2+2 equals, and will always equal, 4. And perhaps it does and always will. I certainly believe it does. He has faith that people he has never met have honestly performed and honestly reported the results of scientific studies they have completed. Sometimes this is the case, and sometimes not. The atheist has faith that when he dies, nothing will happen...but he can't know until he gets there.

God is essentially non-falsifiable. He is not scientifically provable. That's okay with me. Why didn't God tell others what He has told me? God didn't really tell me; I just believe. There is some baseline level of the knowledge of God that is built into creation and is available to everyone, if they choose to explore it. I would say that God has already told everyone else in the whole world what He has told me; He has encoded it in the smallest cell and written it across the sky. I believe God is just. People will be judged according to the knowledge that they have. I don't pretend to know all the details of how the system works, but I believe that in the end, nobody will be able to accuse God of injustice.

These are my beliefs. I make no pretense that they are logical or scientific. Faith is unnecessary when certainty exists. I have faith that one day, we will all be certain one way or another.

You're going to mock any answers you get, so why bother asking, other than to bait those you feel so intellectually superior to?